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LEOPARD 1 IS WEAK (BUFF REQUIRED IMMEDIATELY)

tier X Tier X med Weak tanks Leopard 1 Tier X Weak Buff

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__H3H3__ #21 Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:09 AM

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If I could choose between the Leopard 1 and the STB-1? Leopard 1 every single time on every single map. STB-1 is pure crap. The gun handling is so bad on that tanks. I rather have 0.7 sec slower reloud and awesome gun handling. Yes I think the Leopard gun handling is awesome. It feels like you dont need to aim for me. I dont have any problems with the Leopard, never even had them. Every time I play the STB-1 I just wish I was in my Leopard. I dont feel like it needs a buff.

tajj7 #22 Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:36 AM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 13 October 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

Speaking of ways to buff tanks while not making them all the same i think that apart from what i suggested for leopard (great accuracy, great aimtime, not shooting too often and necessarily after fully stopping, but when shooting actually hitting and penning) theres only imo one more "archetype" (with 1 subtype in a way) that could be explored for mediums and could be used for example to differentiate 62 140 and 430.

 

Basically its the sort of balancing i had hoped rebalanced lights would get, but it could be used for few mediums aswell.

 

(lets imagine these changes were made to 430 for example)

-> bad base accuracy (0.38-0.42) 0.38 -> 0.4

-> fairly poor aimtime (2.5-2.9) 2.3 -> 2.7

-> insane gun dispersions both on hull and turret (0.03-0.05) 0.14 0.14 0.12 -> 0.04 0.04 0.03

-> mediocre but not bad shell velocity (1100-1300) 1535 -> 1200

-> higher pen drop at distance but higher base pen 264->254 -> 270->235 at 500m

-> for good measure nerf heat shell speed from 900 to 750 and pen from 330 to 315 to discourage heat redlining some more

 

So basically a tank unsuitable for any long range shooting but a tank that never really needs to stop to shoot (so basically the exact opposite of the leopard "archetype")

 

And there could be a possible subtype/flavor of this, except rather than short range oriented it would be long range and i would really love if something like that existed in the game, just 1 tank per tier, certainly not common.

 

I would really love to see some uber low alpha, ultra high accuracy and aimtime tank with so-so penetration (the idea used to be that despite poor pen it would have good enough accuracy and gunhandling to hit even the smallest weakspots fairly reliably, but those are kinda disappearing from the game...). It might not really work well, but id still love it. Basically something along these lines (for a t10 med):

 

- 0.1 acc

- 0.7s aimtime

- 220 alpha

- 245 apcr with 1600 shell speed without dropoff at range; premium either 290 heat with 1200 velocity or 290 apcr with 1700 velocity but slight pen dropoff (290->270 at 500 m, to prevent just lolpenning any "weaker areas", still requiring to shoot at actual weakspots)

- dispersions could imo be whatever between 0.03 and 0.1, but with that low alpha certainly not higher than that

- dpm (rammer, vents/bia) over 4k, so were talking about 2.9-3.3s reload

 

 

That first idea is kind of what they have gone with on the T-100 lt, plus was the sort of idea they were doing on Sandbox with the Russian meds, excellent dispersion, poor aim time, poor accuracy, poor view range, very high DPM so they were pretty crap at medium to long range shots but pretty much could just fire on the move.

 

Also the latter idea again is the sort of direction they are looking at for the premium/potential reward awful panther. 225 pen, 0.3 accuracy, 1.5s aim time, 0.05 turret dispersion but 135 alpha. 

 

Problem with that is the DPM is still not very good at 2.1k, it should be like 2.8-3k base. 

 

Would like to see WG try more of this stuff, especially with the tier 10 meds, plus I've always said that accuracy ranges should be further, pretty much all guns in the game are between 0.3 and 0.45, making them not that diffferent whereas we should have accuracy down at 0.1 and non-derp guns should be higher like 0.45 - 0.5 for big alpha heavy tank guns, rather than tanks like the E100 and IS7 having 0.38 accuracy and then a 'sniper' tank like the Leo having 0.29. 

 

It's like I always thought when they buffed the Fv4202 when it had 35kph speed they should have left it like that but given it like insane DPM and gun handling, so like 2.8k base DPM on a tier 8 med, but you pay for it because you go slower than tier 8 heavies. 

 

They are just too generic with their balancing or just go extreme where they have extreme alpha and then try to balance it with a crappy platform, whereas stuff like DPM, super high accuracy, very high aim times are not game breaking stuff. 



Dr_Oolen #23 Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:33 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 13 October 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

 

That first idea is kind of what they have gone with on the T-100 lt, plus was the sort of idea they were doing on Sandbox with the Russian meds, excellent dispersion, poor aim time, poor accuracy, poor view range, very high DPM so they were pretty crap at medium to long range shots but pretty much could just fire on the move.

 

Also the latter idea again is the sort of direction they are looking at for the premium/potential reward awful panther. 225 pen, 0.3 accuracy, 1.5s aim time, 0.05 turret dispersion but 135 alpha. 

 

Problem with that is the DPM is still not very good at 2.1k, it should be like 2.8-3k base. 

 

Would like to see WG try more of this stuff, especially with the tier 10 meds, plus I've always said that accuracy ranges should be further, pretty much all guns in the game are between 0.3 and 0.45, making them not that diffferent whereas we should have accuracy down at 0.1 and non-derp guns should be higher like 0.45 - 0.5 for big alpha heavy tank guns, rather than tanks like the E100 and IS7 having 0.38 accuracy and then a 'sniper' tank like the Leo having 0.29. 

 

It's like I always thought when they buffed the Fv4202 when it had 35kph speed they should have left it like that but given it like insane DPM and gun handling, so like 2.8k base DPM on a tier 8 med, but you pay for it because you go slower than tier 8 heavies. 

 

They are just too generic with their balancing or just go extreme where they have extreme alpha and then try to balance it with a crappy platform, whereas stuff like DPM, super high accuracy, very high aim times are not game breaking stuff. 

 

Exactly, its one of the most disappointing things about WG balancing. They arent afraid of making extreme tanks (in some regards), but for some reason they only make them extreme in terms of alpha/autoloader and then balance the tanks not by making them bad elsewhere but comfortable to play, but by making them extremely uncomfortable to play (terrible gun dispersions/depression/elevation/gun angles). Nothing triggers me more in this game than completely potato gun handling or unability to get the gun aimed at tanks in the first place due to awful gun angles/turret (gun) traverse. I was for example blown away by WG completely ruining CDC by the terrain resistances. They had great opportunity to make a super fast and accelerating medium with 35 hp/t (which would hardly be game breaking with the other stats it has), but no, slap on 1.7 resistances so that it is practically no different from russian 15 hp/t hovermeds in terms of mobility...

 

While there is plenty of opportunity to make tanks with extreme accuracy, extreme aimtimes, gun dispersions, hp/t and maneuvrability which are all things that as you said dont break the game, unlike the ability to oneshot tanks or damage them for 50% of their HP, which is the single most game breaking mechanic (with arty) that can be in the game. Basically i guess what im saying is that there is ample space for unique tanks that are all comfortable to play, not broken, not op. And as a rule of thumb id say that in terms of broken/op its only really the alpha/clip potential and DPM that need to be capped within reasonable range (as in, imo alpha shouldnt go above 850 for any tank in the game; upper range of DPM probably around 4000 base) while on the other hand some stats that have to do with comfortability should have ~maximum/minimum values not to make tanks annoying to play. Such as gun depression (4.5° minimum), gun elevation (12° minimum), gun traverse on casemate TDs (+- 8° minimum); turret traverse (~16° minimum); hull traverse medium terrain effective (~16° minimum) and complete potato gun handling (but thats a function of dispersions, accuracy, aimtime, turret/gun traverse speed, hull traverse/speed; but for example at t10 these tanks have imo overall too potato gun handling to be enjoyable to play (at least of the tanks i have/have played): stb, leopard, 430, grille, foch 155, fv183, rhm pzwgn.

 

And as you said with the accuracy - i said the same probably over a year ago - that accuracy should go from at the very least 0.15 to 0.46 on non derps and up to something like 0.6 on derps. WG simply is unable to realize that its very often the inaccurate tanks that have the armor and the "accurate" tanks that dont have armor which in practice means that at the end of the day the "accurate" tank has to shoot the inaccurate tank into 1x2m weakspot while the inaccurate one can generally hit anywhere on the "accurate" tank to pen, which means like 6x3m area; and the differences in accuracy simply dont make up for that at all and the inaccurate tank can hit and pen the "sniper" tanks at range way more easily than the other way round.

 

And at the end of the day this whole game is simply all about one thing - the proportion of damage that you deal with one shot to the damage you receive in return for having taken your shot.

 

If a maus takes 6 seconds total to poke a corner, aim, shoot, return to cover and does 490 dmg very reliably like that (due to for what it is great gun handling on accurate gun) but on average takes maybe 450 dmg in return (with 3k hitpoints) despite 4-5 tanks having the time to shoot him in return; then a tank with 0 armor (leopard) with 2k hitpoints needs to be able to (to get basically the same total survivability/damage capability) take its shot so fast and with good reliability so that maybe only 1 tank gets to react and aim in fast enough (because of guaranteed pen vs leopard), meaning it would either need to be able to poke the corner, shoot accurately and get back in less than 2 seconds, or it would need to be able to, at long ranges, hit and pen said maus into its weakspot more likely than a maus is likely to hit and pen the leopard at that long range. Neither of those is the case. Leopard takes just as long as maus to reliably shoot after poking, but takes way more damage in return (and does less damage) while at long range the maus is probably 5x (or even more) as more likely to hit and pen leopard than is leopard likely to hit and pen the maus... (not saying there are only these 2 situations to consider, its obviously a spectrum of situations, but it basically boils down to this principle).

 

 



ares354 #24 Posted 13 October 2017 - 05:03 PM

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Before Leopard 1 will get anything, WG will try to kill 121 line by buffing 430 line. https://thearmoredpa...branch-changes/

For Leo 1 we will have to wait long time. 

MrEdweird #25 Posted 13 October 2017 - 05:08 PM

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i think they should change it to 1A1A1 spec.

theSwedishTankDriver #26 Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:19 PM

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What it needs is a big buff in gun handling. Similar to M48 Patton would be great. A small DPM buff would be good too.

ares354 #27 Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:23 PM

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View PosttheSwedishTankDriver, on 13 October 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

What it needs is a big buff in gun handling. Similar to M48 Patton would be great. A small DPM buff would be good too.

 

Its German, cant have better dpm then US MT, by what WG doing with German MT over years. 

JakeRoook #28 Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:45 PM

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Nice tank , 3rd place best tank for sleipnir move btw. But lying, T10 is 3rd, Leo is 4rd.

Edited by JakeRoook, 13 October 2017 - 08:54 PM.


Wotichen #29 Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:28 PM

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It is so true. Leopard needs a gun buff urgendly . 

kiolvi #30 Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:37 PM

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View PostWunderWurst, on 13 October 2017 - 12:25 AM, said:

 

Well it does not need good softstats. Look at the Grille. Bad softstats yet a good sniper. I like the idea of bad softstats BUT in return insane aimtime. Make the aimtime 1 second, give it 0.1 accuracy and see from there. It wont be able to shoot on the move, but splitseconds (like 2 or 3 seconds) after stopping it would be fully aimed and godlike accuracy, hitting cupolas even on 300+meters range reliable.

 

That would make for unique yet balanced gameplay. Leo1 would be the perfect sniper, but as bad as it now is in brawling situations. To be honest even that would not make the tank much better since you can count the maps on one hand which allow (constant) long range engagement.

 

Grille is the same as Leopard. Accuracy is is good on paper but troll as F in action. I have both tanks and none of the other tanks troll as much as those. Not even KV-2 and its derp gun. It's is called German accyracy, get used to it.

BKatt #31 Posted 14 October 2017 - 12:52 AM

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I completely agree that the Leopard 1 needs a buff.

Its needed a buff for several years now, but lately its been tragic to play.

 

Supposedly one of the best if not the best sniper tank in the game, sure. On paper. Trollish gun as feck, and no armor, decent mobility, hardly any camo.

 

On top of this, the maps dosnt exactly cater to the Leo either. Except for a very select few maps.

 

There is some great ideas in this thread, Dr.Oolen's forexamble.

I just hope WG would listen to reason for once.



__Savage___ #32 Posted 14 October 2017 - 05:26 AM

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I agree. I have a leopard but it has my worst WR of all my tanks. 

It definately needs a buff. Its a large paper armor tank which is quite useless against nowadays tanks.



Dr_Oolen #33 Posted 14 October 2017 - 08:52 AM

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Seeing how they plan on changing the 430 and what the 430U will look like i dont think the balance department will ever do anything sensible and interesting (apart from maybe coming up with the next 2k+ autoloader or 1.5k+ alpha derp or a heavy tonk that is frontally completely immune to all regular shells of same tier tanks) :)

 

430 is bad and too similar to t62/140? No problem comrade!

 

We will remove the one tank from the line with unique playstyle and turn the rest of the line not into t54/t62/140 copies but into 121/113 copies! With exactly the same type of stats and playstyle like 50% of all the other high tier mediums. Theres already basically only 3 types of playstyles at high tiers - either you have high dpm low alpha with good turret but bad gun depression or semi-high dpm with ok turret 390 alpha and good gun depression or an autoloader or a leopard. The first two types play exactly the same basically, except with the first one you poke shallower ridges than with the second one, with the autoloaders you basically redline and then yolo and with leopard you do nothing because it cant do anything. When leopard gets changed it will join the 2nd type and we will be left with 2 different types of gameplay :XD



Enforcer1975 #34 Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:32 AM

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I tried the Leo 1 and STB on the sandbox server and i must say i like the Leo better and it's better than it's reputation. Guns is accurate, reload could be a bit faster and funny enough i only got my ammorack damaged maybe twice that night compared to the 50/51 which as i thought is the ultimate clicker machine...way better than the Batmobile.

Havenless #35 Posted 14 October 2017 - 01:44 PM

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I have an idea how to fix this guys. Let's give it -10 gun depression and buff its turret armor.

Kankipappa #36 Posted 14 October 2017 - 02:25 PM

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STB was good before the accuracy nerf like 2-3 years ago, I played like 1500 matches with it, until the deathblow came and made it a total grasswhiffer.

 

Leopard now seems to suffer on same issues after 3 years, as you can't snipe with it half of the time (whiffs to grass or out of the circle) and since TD's will teamkill you if you try to stay back. I just sold my Leopard for the reason that it is completely out of the meta so to speak, swedish TD's and other new tanks have taken the spots from the tank and if you jumped into Leopard 1, you usually get into MM that usually makes you a frontline tank. Maybe it's still good in the 30v30 map, but I had enough of the tank, since the current map pool doesn't really make the tank have any useful traits to have..



tajj7 #37 Posted 14 October 2017 - 08:11 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 14 October 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Seeing how they plan on changing the 430 and what the 430U will look like i dont think the balance department will ever do anything sensible and interesting (apart from maybe coming up with the next 2k+ autoloader or 1.5k+ alpha derp or a heavy tonk that is frontally completely immune to all regular shells of same tier tanks) :)

 

430 is bad and too similar to t62/140? No problem comrade!

 

We will remove the one tank from the line with unique playstyle and turn the rest of the line not into t54/t62/140 copies but into 121/113 copies! With exactly the same type of stats and playstyle like 50% of all the other high tier mediums. Theres already basically only 3 types of playstyles at high tiers - either you have high dpm low alpha with good turret but bad gun depression or semi-high dpm with ok turret 390 alpha and good gun depression or an autoloader or a leopard. The first two types play exactly the same basically, except with the first one you poke shallower ridges than with the second one, with the autoloaders you basically redline and then yolo and with leopard you do nothing because it cant do anything. When leopard gets changed it will join the 2nd type and we will be left with 2 different types of gameplay :XD

 

Yeh I noticed this too. 

 

Another wasted opportunity. 

 

Much like how the AMX 30B was too much like the Leo so they just made it a better STB-1. 



hasnainrakha57 #38 Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:37 PM

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Well I agree with the buff of 30B turret armor and dpm leopard is now far behind (I don't have leopard neither played with it)

SplittingVoid #39 Posted 15 October 2017 - 09:30 AM

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While many have opinions that the leopard 1 is balanced with its firepower/ accuracy , do keep in mind that it is only effective as long as your tank is functional. The key point is the low degree of survivability with its module layout and armour. That's pretty much the problem I've tried to highlight. Just got back from a tier X mm doing 500 damage while being ammo racked nearly 70-80 percent of the time..

ExclamationMark #40 Posted 15 October 2017 - 04:48 PM

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I M M E D I A T E L Y ! ! !




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