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The Panzer III J needs a tweak.

german tank penetration

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Darkshadow556 #1 Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:37 PM

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So with new trees and new patches some old tanks get left behind and forgotten.
The 88 l56 change was a welcome one as the penetration on it was wrong.
Now we come to the 5 cm kwk 39 l/60 which also has a wrong penetration value.
Because the germans did their tests on plates angled at 30 degrees the penetration tables they used are not correct in the game, because the game uses the pen of a gun of a plate with no angling.
If we do a little digging we see that the americans tested the kwk 39 l/60 and came up with a penetration of around 96 mm.
While Wg has put a value of 67 from the german tests.
I personally think that fixing the penetration values on german tanks will make them a bit more competitive in the early tiers and make them struggle less when dealing with the higher tier tanks they tend to face, also the l/60 is almost the same as the l/42 which makes little sense as the l/42 was phased out because it was inadequate.
Also the 7.5 cm l70 is also off by a bit, but it's still decent enough to where it's not really an issue.

Edited by Darkshadow556, 13 October 2017 - 02:39 PM.


Balc0ra #2 Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:59 PM

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I suspect most use the L/24 "derp" on that one to complain about it. But it could still use some attention. The pen was fine with the old meta back in the day, considering even the Matilda was not there then etc. And tier 4 meds added since then, inc the French one have been in the 100mm area. So it needs something to keep up. But who knows what WG has planned in the next few patches. As balancing is going to be a focus for a few patches more until March.

 

L70 is more then fine vs other med guns on tier 6 etc. And on higher tiers, you have other options.



Erwin_Von_Braun #3 Posted 13 October 2017 - 06:23 PM

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View PostDarkshadow556, on 13 October 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

So with new trees and new patches some old tanks get left behind and forgotten.
The 88 l56 change was a welcome one as the penetration on it was wrong.
Now we come to the 5 cm kwk 39 l/60 which also has a wrong penetration value.
Because the germans did their tests on plates angled at 30 degrees the penetration tables they used are not correct in the game, because the game uses the pen of a gun of a plate with no angling.
If we do a little digging we see that the americans tested the kwk 39 l/60 and came up with a penetration of around 96 mm.
While Wg has put a value of 67 from the german tests.
I personally think that fixing the penetration values on german tanks will make them a bit more competitive in the early tiers and make them struggle less when dealing with the higher tier tanks they tend to face, also the l/60 is almost the same as the l/42 which makes little sense as the l/42 was phased out because it was inadequate.
Also the 7.5 cm l70 is also off by a bit, but it's still decent enough to where it's not really an issue.

 

Maybe could do with a teensy weensy pen buff but, other than that, it's fine.

Tend to play mine more as a scout - good crew (almost 4 skills) + Vents + Optics + Spall Liner (just for the ramming shenanigans):izmena:



Aikl #4 Posted 13 October 2017 - 06:43 PM

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It could sure use a bit extra penetration, but the speed the III Ausf. J has going for it isn't exactly historically accurate either. Wikipedia says the following:

The Panzer III Ausf. A through D were powered by a 250 PS (184 kW), 12-cylinder Maybach HL 108 TR engine, giving a top speed of 35 km/h (22 mph).[4] All later models were powered by the 300 PS (221 kW), 12-cylinder Maybach HL 120 TRM engine. Regulated top speed varied, depending on the transmission and weight, but was around 40 km/h (25 mph).[14]

 

'Regulated top speed' would likely not have been an issue for a fifteen-minute sprint, but still. In-game, the III Ausf. J (which isn't even the latest model or a funky prototype) uses a 440HP engine, has terrain resistance values equal to the T-54 and uses the weight (20t) from the 30mm-armoured Ausf. E model - the 50mm overall armor, increased engine deck armor and the extra plate on the turret and hull front seems to come at around 1,5-2 tonnes extra, which fits quite well with Wikipedia's estimate of 23t (for later models, which I'm guessing also had skirts).

 

It of course makes a bit of sense in-game, as the Panzer III/IV plays quite similarly - and it's not like historical accuracy matters much anyway. Bottom line being that I'm not entirely sure that I would trade the mobility of the in-game III J with 20-30mm extra penetration. It's a quite funny tank at T4.



Erwin_Von_Braun #5 Posted 13 October 2017 - 06:49 PM

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View PostAikl, on 13 October 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

It could sure use a bit extra penetration, but the speed the III Ausf. J has going for it isn't exactly historically accurate either. Wikipedia says the following:

The Panzer III Ausf. A through D were powered by a 250 PS (184 kW), 12-cylinder Maybach HL 108 TR engine, giving a top speed of 35 km/h (22 mph).[4] All later models were powered by the 300 PS (221 kW), 12-cylinder Maybach HL 120 TRM engine. Regulated top speed varied, depending on the transmission and weight, but was around 40 km/h (25 mph).[14]

 

'Regulated top speed' would likely not have been an issue for a fifteen-minute sprint, but still. In-game, the III Ausf. J (which isn't even the latest model or a funky prototype) uses a 440HP engine, has terrain resistance values equal to the T-54 and uses the weight (20t) from the 30mm-armoured Ausf. E model - the 50mm overall armor, increased engine deck armor and the extra plate on the turret and hull front seems to come at around 1,5-2 tonnes extra, which fits quite well with Wikipedia's estimate of 23t (for later models, which I'm guessing also had skirts).

 

It of course makes a bit of sense in-game, as the Panzer III/IV plays quite similarly - and it's not like historical accuracy matters much anyway. Bottom line being that I'm not entirely sure that I would trade the mobility of the in-game III J with 20-30mm extra penetration. It's a quite funny tank at T4.

 

Funny is the key word right there - I admit, I struggle with accuracy & pen at range with this little beastie - but most of my engagements are at very close range, so it's not really a problem.

It's great for monstering games when it's top tier and can hold it's own against Tier V. It's only when it sees Tier VI that it struggles, then I tend to play it more as a fast scout.



Aikl #6 Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:00 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 13 October 2017 - 05:49 PM, said:

 

Funny is the key word right there - I admit, I struggle with accuracy & pen at range with this little beastie - but most of my engagements are at very close range, so it's not really a problem.

It's great for monstering games when it's top tier and can hold it's own against Tier V. It's only when it sees Tier VI that it struggles, then I tend to play it more as a fast scout.

 

 While I don't play T3-4 that much, it's not like I hold back on the '2' key if it means I can troll a KV-85 to bits. I'd rather keep my 64kph rammer-machine with clubber ammo, I'll admit as much. Well, I've sold it now. Again. Gets a bit expensive, and it's not really fair to put a five-skill crew, full equipment and APCR for everyone at T4. Well, enabling XVM and clubbing the clubbers doesn't really get old, though. Nice for pushing AMX 40s around too.

Erwin_Von_Braun #7 Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:07 PM

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View PostAikl, on 13 October 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

 

 While I don't play T3-4 that much, it's not like I hold back on the '2' key if it means I can troll a KV-85 to bits. I'd rather keep my 64kph rammer-machine with clubber ammo, I'll admit as much. Well, I've sold it now. Again. Gets a bit expensive, and it's not really fair to put a five-skill crew, full equipment and APCR for everyone at T4. Well, enabling XVM and clubbing the clubbers doesn't really get old, though. Nice for pushing AMX 40s around too.

 

Agreed.

T67's are my favourite prey;)



LCpl_Jones #8 Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:51 PM

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the 5 cm Kw.K. 39 L/60  is brilliant. machine gun rapid fire with enough standard pen for most tanks it meets and great gold ammo for trolling everything else it meets.

 

combined with it's agility and sometimes bouncy armour it's a great balanced all rounder

 

i like it, it's the only low tier tank i've kept as i use it to train my German crews too there 1st skill before moving them into their own tank






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