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What's the point of heavy tanks?


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Mikixi #1 Posted 19 October 2017 - 05:34 PM

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Just a question:

If every tank but lights and arty (same tier) can pen them frontally (even not aiming at weakspots) and even if angled fine, what's the point of heavy tanks? why should i trade mobility and camo of mediums for an armor that would be penned anyway? because of bigger HP pool...?

Obviously i'm talking about premium ammo users.

Just looking at https://tanks.gg/ almost every heavy is penetrable by almost every same tier tnk (using prammo).

 


Edited by Mikixi, 19 October 2017 - 05:37 PM.


Tomotorqemada #2 Posted 19 October 2017 - 05:42 PM

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A very good question, that last crossed my mind during the upgrade of soviet tier9 to tier 10. Well, this was actually a downgrade. It became slower, less precise, less penetrating, worse aiming, worse acceleration. So 'HP pool' really answers some of that. But generally the only purpose of all these KV2 and other rolling caskets is to get me more easy kills and damage while driving my Steyr or Strv - their purpose is to get ape raped at any angle.

Enforcer1975 #3 Posted 19 October 2017 - 05:42 PM

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I guess that's the reason why we aren't building (super)heavy tanks with lot's of armor anymore.

xx984 #4 Posted 19 October 2017 - 05:44 PM

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View PostMikixi, on 19 October 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

Just a question:

If every tank but lights and arty (same tier) can pen them frontally (even not aiming at weakspots) and even if angled fine, what's the point of heavy tanks? 

Hate to break it to ya but you obviously are not "angled fine" :facepalm:



Dava_117 #5 Posted 19 October 2017 - 05:46 PM

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View PostMikixi, on 19 October 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

Just a question:

If every tank but lights and arty (same tier) can pen them frontally (even not aiming at weakspots) and even if angled fine, what's the point of heavy tanks? why should i trade mobility and camo of mediums for an armor that would be penned anyway? because of bigger HP pool...?

Obviously i'm talking about premium ammo users.

Just looking at https://tanks.gg/ almost every heavy is penetrable by almost every same tier tnk (using prammo).

 

 

The point is to lear to use armor. Except some retarded superheavy, all the HTs have a specific gamesyle that make them "invincible". Some play hulldown (ex. T-32), some use sidescrape (ex. KV-4), some others use armour  to bounce baddly aimed shot or at range shot (i'm not sure but Tiger II should be there) and some have armor layout designed to push and facehuge (ex. IS-3).

Learn how an HT works and it will pay back with high damage dealt or blocked.



Anxter_ #6 Posted 19 October 2017 - 05:55 PM

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High HP pool combined with usually some armor zones that can be leveraged as a saving throw if not outright being impenetrable in the right situations and generally higher alpha. 

 

Basically, even if some [edited]med spams gold at you, you will have the better tank for trading and pushing. There's a reason heavies are still heavily(lel) used in CW, where most people spam gold like it's candy. Rather, your issue with heavies is a "learn to play scrub" issue.



K_A #7 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:00 PM

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They're not supposed to be impenetrable, but the combination of a higher HP pool and being able to bounce some shots is usually enough to give them better survivability than similar tier mediums and lights, an advantage that the meds and lights must try to get back by using their mobility and general flexibility.

tajj7 #8 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:00 PM

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it's funny because I am seeing games with like 70-80% heavy tanks in them and barely any meds.

 

Not to mention most heavies utterly dominate the game.

 

Whilst Maus, Type 5, Defender et all are some of the most OP tanks in the game. 

 

But apparently armour is useless. Makes total sense. 

 

:facepalm:



UrQuan #9 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:00 PM

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Heavy tanks tend to have quite some advantages over the other classes, but also tend to have some big drawbacks. They tend to come with armor, HP & firepower (they tend to carry very powerful guns for their tier, only bested by TD's generally) In exchange they usually are less mobile & less viewrange and got bad camorating, requiring them to rely on others to get the most out of them.

 

Also, in case of armor-focused heavies, it's not only about having armor, it's also on how to use it. And it is in this part alot of people fall flat, expecting armor to do the work for them. A good example is my favorite tank, the KV-4.

This tank has at most 180mm armor, a value that can be penned rather well by most T8 tanks, with standard pen. Consider that this 180mm is only a small part of the front & most armor values on this tank are lower & you wonder how it can stop standard ammo, let alone prem ammo so well.

The answer lies in angling & following simple guidelines. Angling can turn weak parts into strong armor, unsuitable to fire on (Defender Upper front plate is a good example of what angles can do to armor, it's 130mm thick, but due to the angle it's at, you can't penetrate it in most battle situations).

 

And the armor guidelines? Here they are:

 

- Don't get hit: No matter what you drive, this is paramount. Don't get hit when you don't need to.

- Bait shots: Peek out some tough piece of armor, you'd be surprised how many people take shots at it. Once done, roll out that gun & answer in kind!

- Angle up: When you have to expose yourself to hostile fire: maximize your armor; it reduces the hurt greatly (notice, I said 'reduce' not 'immunize;)

- Don't do bad trades! If there's a ton of tanks aiming at you & not tricked by your baiting, don't try & shoot for 400 damage when you can get 1000 damage in return. 

- Know your enemy guns: An IS-6 has no hope penning you if you play your KV-4/VK 100 properly, while that Borsig will remain a serious issue when he's aimed at you & waiting for you to come out.

- Don't tease the Deathstars (Jagpanzer E-100 & British FV TD's) No really, don't do it. It's not worth it

- Don't go alone: Way too many people think their heavy armor tank is a solo pwn machine. Nope it is not: bring friends/teammates. Make sure you got support in back. When you do: it's rocking time. When you don't? Go defensive, punish the enemy for even thinking to approach you. You want a solo pwn machine? Get IS-3 or any other generalist tank & get good at the game. Armored tanks are not it (But WG sure as hell tries lately, not a good evolution imo). 

 

Armor doesn't exist to make you immune to damage, that would be a bad thing. What it does is make you more resistent to damage, allowing you to take bigger risks in return.

 

And because an image says more then words:

Getting a Golden Shower in my Maus

 


Edited by UrQuan, 19 October 2017 - 10:49 PM.


RockyRoller #10 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:07 PM

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what some many people don't understand is the tanks are not cookie cut. In the case of heavies, some are best at long range  (Tiger 2), and a few at face to face close (Defender). 

 

It isn't a situation of asking what are heavy tanks for, it is about you discovering if you have the skill to master its potential.



Dava_117 #11 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:13 PM

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Listen to UrQuan. It's wiser than me.

For example I never learned the "Don't tease the deathstars" rule! :teethhappy:



Cobra6 #12 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:15 PM

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View PostMikixi, on 19 October 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

Just a question:

If every tank but lights and arty (same tier) can pen them frontally (even not aiming at weakspots) and even if angled fine, what's the point of heavy tanks? why should i trade mobility and camo of mediums for an armor that would be penned anyway? because of bigger HP pool...?

Obviously i'm talking about premium ammo users.

Just looking at https://tanks.gg/ almost every heavy is penetrable by almost every same tier tnk (using prammo).

 

 

Look at that, it's "Steve The IS_7 Driver" writing exactly the kind of text displaying why the Maus and Type 5 got hugely overbuffed.

 

Never thought I'd see the day!

 

Cobra 6



Mimos_A #13 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:22 PM

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The point of heavy tanks is usually at least one of the below:

 

Being able to tank damage.

Having armour that works when used intelligently.

Having an amazing boomstick.

 

As for any tank, use the strengths of your tank. Not every heavy is supposed to be a mobile bunker that can just sit there trading shots. Some are ridgeline-warriors, some are DPM monsters, some have amazing alpha damage, some are reasonably mobile medium tank bullies.

 

Also, often even though people can pen you they need to aim for specific spots to pen, learn to use that to your advantage.


Edited by Mimos_A, 19 October 2017 - 06:22 PM.


ZlatanArKung #14 Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:23 PM

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There is not a single tier in this game where the average medium tank performs better then the average heavy tank.

Meaning,  heavy tanks are better at winning games then mediums across all skill levels.

In fact, Heavies have some of the most OP tanks in the game aswell in their pool.

Also. Premium ammo doesn't make armour useless, if it would, heavies wouldn't be better then mediums at winning games, Type 5 wouldn't be one of the best tank at T9 at winning games, O-I wouldn't be one of the best tanks at T6 at winning games etc.

Your premiss is false, just as your conclusion.

Tomotorqemada #15 Posted 19 October 2017 - 09:50 PM

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View PostMimos_A, on 19 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

The point of heavy tanks is usually at least one of the below:

 

Being able to tank damage.

Having armour that works when used intelligently.

Having an amazing boomstick.

 

 

Also, often even though people can pen you they need to aim for specific spots to pen, learn to use that to your advantage.

 

I especially observed this when a KV2 shell pounced off a t34 some 70 m away), and when my IS3 magic boomstic bounced 4 or five times off 110 or 100 mm T26E4, so that i loaded gold, and it bounced too.
No, I'm not gona argue with this brilliant theory of WOT masters, but the original frustration is totally understandable. Now someone is bringing up the fat japanese hts to prove the no-armor point) thats interesting.
But if you (or mo, rather if a cancer like me) takes some KV2 or KV85 or some tier5 VK - understanding comes that the heavy is not so heavy. In fact it often feels just like canned fish for a LT thats circling around and unscrewing bolt by bolt.

But you can actually survive till you get yourself a Maus or so, and enjoy the cladding. Japanese monsters are quite thick (never wantable for me,though). Also some vehicles have enjoyable parts of armour - like the bloody t29 with its 271 mm on turret front, if im not mistaken. This suffices to often consider the bloody thing invincible, as this is the only part it shows up to shoot at you. Maybe this will help your feelings. I was strongly relieved when I got to T-10, soviet t9. It was really easy to consider it just a very special MT with a very good gun (really likeable), decent dynamics and bits more HP (not that much more, though). Unfortunately, moving to IS-7 then feels like broken legs and fatty fat belly, but there you can already feel some armor. Some, as I luckily happened to be oneshot in it more than once - veterans do not lie, for this tank SafeStowage skill is almost a must.
At the end of the day, you can go for an other goal, that is an autoloader BFG. For those tanks I guess it's understandable that they are relatively poorly armoured

there is also some numerous tl;dr on the topic of 'normalisation' - not that it can make u feel better, but maybe help you find a way to such a tank that would looks safe enough for you after you've done the calculations)))))

brumbarr #16 Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:00 PM

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Posted Image

 

Armor doesnt work...

 

And this is your account: 

 

Posted Image

 

Armor is so bad, it only doubles my HP!


Edited by brumbarr, 19 October 2017 - 10:17 PM.


Mimos_A #17 Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:38 PM

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View PostTomotorqemada, on 19 October 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

 

I especially observed this when a KV2 shell pounced off a t34 some 70 m away), and when my IS3 magic boomstic bounced 4 or five times off 110 or 100 mm T26E4, so that i loaded gold, and it bounced too.
 

 

So the enemy's armour worked... you didn't hit the right place to pen, that's how armour is supposed to work... I really don't see why your armour should work and theirs not...

MR_FIAT #18 Posted 20 October 2017 - 08:39 AM

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git gud. 

MattieW #19 Posted 20 October 2017 - 09:39 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 19 October 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

it's funny because I am seeing games with like 70-80% heavy tanks in them and barely any meds.

 

Not to mention most heavies utterly dominate the game.

 

Whilst Maus, Type 5, Defender et all are some of the most OP tanks in the game. 

 

But apparently armour is useless. Makes total sense. 

 

:facepalm:

 

don’t forget most heavies have a higher alpha dmg. (Ignoring TDs of course)

vixu #20 Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:23 AM

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Purpose is to force other players to spam gold.

With type-4 heavy it is one of the 2 outcomes:
- they dont spam broken gold: you are broken monster who'm nobody can penetrate, then you easily bounce 2x of your hp pool
- they spam broken gold: you are a damage counter. 

Edited by vixu, 20 October 2017 - 10:25 AM.





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