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The 14 cm gun (the original AP gun) on Type 4/5 is still horrible and should be buffed.

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Poll: 14 cm/50 3rd Year Type AP gun (46 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

Does the original 14 cm AP gun of the Type 4/5 Heavy need a buff?

  1. Yes. (31 votes [67.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.39%

  2. No. (15 votes [32.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.61%

What should be buffed on the 14 cm gun? (pick answer 1 if you said "no" in Q1)

  1. The 14 cm does not need buffs. (13 votes [28.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.26%

  2. more than just one stat should be buffed (specify in the topic) (9 votes [19.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.57%

  3. penetration (13 votes [28.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.26%

  4. DPM (in form of buffing rate of fire) (4 votes [8.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.70%

  5. DPM (in form of buffing alpha damage to 650 while leaving the RoF unchanged) (1 vote [2.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.17%

  6. gun handling (5 votes [10.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.87%

  7. accuracy (1 vote [2.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.17%

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leggasiini #1 Posted 19 October 2017 - 08:35 PM

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"BUT WAIT LEGGA, DIDN'T YOU JUST MAKE A POST ABOUT TYPE 5 BEING OP, BROKEN AND BLA BLA BLA?" 

 

Disclaimer: I will refer to Type 5 in the topic, simply because I happened to write just Type 5 on the topic instead of Type 4/5, and as lazy fegit I am not gonna edit every "Type 5" into "Type 4/5". However, if the 14 cm was buffed, the buffs would be given to the Type 4 as well.

 

Yes I did. And my opinion hasn't changed at all. And yeah, this is yet another Type 5 thread, but this one is bit different. Instead of complaining about armor, derp gun or its P2W factor, this post is dedicated into one seemingly very ignored point about Type 5: the 14 cm AP gun, which was completely ignored in 9.17.1 when the tanks got buffed. And maybe this is pleasing news or big disappointment for not having a field day of swinging the banhammer for mods, but the profanity, raging and ranting wont be furious like in the Type 5 thread made few months ago. :hiding:

 

Buffing certain part of the OP tank (Type 5), thats ridiculous, right? It sounds like so at first. However, the biggest thing what makes Type 5 so overpowered is the derp gun, or more specifically, the premium HE shells, having all significant advantages of HE based guns while also having ability to rack up damage not even that much slower than some of the non-HE guns. Don't get me wrong, the armor is stupidly broken and also a big factor why the tank is broken blablabla, but technically when thought deeply, it actually isn't even that much different from the old armor layout - practically immune to standard rounds, but vulnerable to premium ammo, same applied to both old and current armor layouts. Main difference was that the old armor was completely hopeless against 330/340 pen HEAT shells, while the current layout might have some chance when angled 45 degrees, but even then you need a bit luck on RNG's side. Old armor layout struggled against TD standard rounds, whereas the current layout can also block TD standard rounds semi reliably. The old armor did indeed have cheek weakspots, but those were weakspots only when Type 5 tried to actually "use" its armor (don't get me wrong, weakspots are better than no weakspots but the hull cheeks are the worst possible weakspot concept you can have, as they are exactly opposite from the most weakspots - angling and hulldowning is supposed to hide weakspots, not expose ones that wouldn't be exposed when not hulldowning or angling) - if Type 5 didn't angle its armor, you basically needed gold to actually go through it - because unangled Type 5 didnt have weakspots. No one complained about it however, because the Type 5 was the most unpopular regular tier 10 in the game - and for a good reason.

 

The armor wasn't the actual main reason why the tank was considered as one of the worst tier 10s in the game, opinion shared by basically everyone who was masochist enough to ever touch this tank back then - both tomatoes and unicums and everyone between them, the opinion was widely the same - its trash.

 

The true reason was the original gun, 14 cm/50 3rd Year Type, which was close to being the worst gun in the entire tier, though that is no longer the case with the tier 10 light tanks (which still needs, especially the Kannonfodderpanzer V2.0: the turreted edition aka Rhm. Panzerwagen if you didnt understand the terrible joke, some love), but it still is quite horrible.

 

It looks acceptable at first, right? It has 2nd highest alpha of all heavies, at respectable 600, so it cannot be that bad? Okay, lets look at the pros and cons:

 

+ Second highest alpha of all tier 10 HTs.

+ Has decent overmatching capabilities.

- Worst accuracy of all tier 10 HTs and MTs with AP guns.

- 2nd worst DPM of all tier 10s in the game (and the one that has worse DPM has basically... 5 HP worth of worse DPM...which is negated by it having way better pen and accuracy)

-2nd worst turret dispersion of tier 10 HTs, only T57 has worse and that is an autoloader with very high DPM

- 2nd worst AP penetration (the worst place tied with E 100 and Maus)

by far the worst premium shell penetration (183's HESH doesn't count because its well...HESH and it has an AP with 310 pen anyway) - most premium shells have 40, 50 or even 60 mm (!) more penetration than it (effectively less because Type 5 has AP but it is not enough to compensate for the fact it has greatly handicapped penetration), means that it cannot reliably penetrate things that every other tier 10 premium round can (such as E 100 turret face when unangled)

- Below average movement dispersion.

 

For having the 2nd (not even the highest, the E 100 still has much better alpha) highest alpha, the gun is either the worst or 2nd worst in quite alot of categories.

 

The 14 cm is an awful combination of bad pen, bad accuracy, bad DPM and bad gun handling. Basically, you have bad penetration, so you have to aim at weakspots, but then the gun handling makes it trickier, and then when you have fully aimed the shot you realize that the accuracy is also bad so you cannot reliably hit those weakspots, and as an icing cake you have bad DPM so you need to wait quite a some time to have another chance to do damage. Those are very rarely combined together, and when they are, you would except something really, really exceptional. 600 alpha is meaty, but its certainly not enough to make up for being close to worst-in-class...at pretty much everything else.

 

There is still a problem if one wants to buff the 14 cm though and that is the armor - no matter what gun you use, the broken armor is still there. Even with the current broken armor, the 14 cm Type 5 is not that much different from the original, infamously terrible Type 5, as both of these did/do these things: - 1. it craps on lowtiers 2. it generally forces gold usage against same tier HTs and MTs due to no weakspots and 3. gets penned by HEAT quite easily and 4. heavily struggles against tanks with heavy armor that fire gold. Of course, there was some kind of weakspot (if the Type 5 angled, if it didnt it wasnt a weakspot), and the current armor has hope against premium and TDs unlike the old armor layout, but there are quite a wide amount of similarities. When you factor the fact WG has buffed armor of everything in this year, the 14 cm is even worse than when the tank was considered horrible, premium ammo usage has gone up quite a lot and general powercreep has gone wild, one would argue that the current 14 cm Type 5 is not even dramatically better in current meta than the Type 5 was 1 year ago. That being said, there is no doubt that the armor needs to be overhauled into something that is bit more reliable when used properly but has actual clear weakspots penetrable to same tier AP shells.

 

Technically, you would say that the 14 cm Type 5 is "balanced" by having broken armor and bad gun, but that is obviously an awful way to balance vehicles. It doesn't change the fact in that configuration, it's awful to play (terrible gun that combines many unfun traits together and the armor layout that can get penned by HEAT no matter what you do), and just as frustrating to fight against (you NEED gold to pen it).

 

However, despite that, I still suggest that even in current state the 14 cm gun should be buffed. Why - let me explain it:

 

  • WG, or more specifically, Murazor, is afraid to do big nerfs to the tank for now. For example, removing the premium HE shell (don't get me wrong, it absolutely should be done) would be a huge nerf, and he doesn't want to do that. So with that being in the mind, the tank probably won't receive a significant change at once anymore. 
  • Doesn't help that for some odd reason Russians doesn't indeed have as negative opinion about the Type 5 as we do (I checked the Russian Type 5 thread today, they are an expensive to run, being frustrating to play with, armor negated by premium ammo (though who to blame, without prem ammo the armor is practically impenetrable), etc etc).
  • The derp is not very good without premium HE, but still better than the current 14 cm. There are some people who play the Type 5 (it is these days not so rare as the first tier 10) but cannot really afford to spam premium HE. This encourages people to use premium ammo even if they didnt want to.
  • The derp, or the gold spam-reliance, which makes it the most expensive tier 10 to play, is a big reason why the tank is frustrating to play. 

 

Lets think like this - the 14 cm gets buffed to the point where it is superior gun compared to the regular HE derp gun, but inferior to the premium HE derp gun, and does not involve gold spam like the derp gun. What would potentially happen:

 

  • more people would use the 14 cm gun - less gold HE derp Type 5s around, would be not as toxic to fight against (still somewhat due to the armor, but not even as close as the gold HE derp type 5). One could think it like gold spam 105 mm AMX M4 45 - while the tank is the strongest in that configuration, you still see way more 90 mm AMX M4 45s - simply because 90 mm is way better with standard rounds than the 105 mm gun is.
  • the buffed 14 cm doesn't require gold spam - Type 5 drivers wouldn't be frustrated about insane ammo costs and RNG trolling them and then losing even more money due to that.

 

While it is not really the best way to "fix" the tank, it still is a win-win situation, and in WG's eyes the tank wouldn't been "ruined". This could be done as quick temporary change before fully fixing the tank - which involves completely changing or even flat out removing the derp gun, and overhauling the armor layout (some stronger areas, no cheeks, but distinct weakspots). Now that the 14 cm is actually a viable gun, WG wouldn't need to worry about ruining the tank by nerfing the derp gun - and that is by at least removing the premium shell. Of course I still wish all of the 3 things - 14 cm buffs, 15 cm nerf/removal, and armor rework, was done in same package, though, but this seems like more probable way how the tank would be changed.

 

Now then, how to actually buff the 14 cm gun? 

 

  • Buff the penetration on standard rounds to ~255 on standard rounds and to ~295 on premium rounds.
  • Buff the RoF by ~10%. Alternatively, DPM also can be buffed by increasing alpha to 650 and then leaving RoF untouched or giving it a minor nerf.
  • Slightly improve gun handling on turret traverse.

 

Im in all for removing the entire derp gun if the 14 cm just got buffed. Thank you.

 

-----------------

 

TL;DR: 14 cm is as it is now, is a terrible gun and unviable option; buffing it to the point where its overall better gun than regular HE derp gun would make more people use the AP gun and make them less frustrated, while people would need to deal less amount of gold HE derp Type 5s, making it a win-win situation, and thus buffing the 14 cm would be used as temporary "fix" to the Type 4/5 so in WG's/Murazor's eyes the tank wouldn't be ruined.

 

EDIT: removed the chart containing different variants of guns, since those were balanced for completely reworked vehicle

 


Edited by leggasiini, 20 October 2017 - 02:05 PM.


CoDiGGo #2 Posted 19 October 2017 - 08:42 PM

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You just waste your time in a weak troll try. There is nothing appart from 15cm full gold (till nerf)

leggasiini #3 Posted 19 October 2017 - 08:51 PM

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View PostCoDiGGo, on 19 October 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

There is nothing appart from 15cm full gold (till nerf)

 

 

Believe or not, I actually see surprisingly many Type 5s firing normal HE, simply because there still are quite a few F2P players who cannot afford firing premium HE...but yeah.

 

 



ZlatanArKung #4 Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:14 AM

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Yes.

Another post by leggasiini that proves he would do a better job then WoT balance team when it comes to balance T10 tanks.

Ceeb #5 Posted 20 October 2017 - 09:40 AM

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Reads to me

 

"yes, please buff my OP broken tank just to improve gameplay"



leggasiini #6 Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:10 AM

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View PostCeeb, on 20 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

Reads to me

 

"yes, please buff my OP broken tank just to improve gameplay"

 

You completely missed the point. 

 

The 15 cm derp gun with gold HE is the most broken aspect about the tank and I agree that gun should be removed or at least nerfed heavily. I don't even know if you are aware but the tank also has another gun option, a 14 cm gun, which was its original gun and despite that fact it was utterly horrible it did not get any buffs, rendering it completely unviable VS the derp gun.

 

I am in all for removing the stupid 15 cm derp gun and buffing the 14 cm; that is what they should have done in the first place, buff the 14 cm, not introduce a stupid derp gun. The 14 cm would need pretty bloody massive buffs to be even remotely close as overpowered as the derp gun is with premium HE. Thats how massive the difference between the two guns are. So even if you buff the 14 cm gun, the tank would be overall be worse than when it uses the derp gun with premium HE, and on top of that it is also not even close as awful to fight against because that gun doesn't just can't point and click for lots of damage like the 15 cm derp gun is able to. 

 

Would you rather fight against a gold HE spamming derp Type 5 that can easily slam you for 500-600 even when your sidescraping at angle where nothing can damage you and on top of that have possibility to Edited  your modules, or a Type 5 with a gun that has to actually aim like 95% of the tanks in the game, yet it does only bit more damage than the derp gun despite the fact it actually needs to aim and penetrate? Your pick.

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to swearing. 


Edited by VMX, 20 October 2017 - 10:30 AM.


Dava_117 #7 Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:10 AM

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Penetration buff with that armor is madness, especially 266mm that would give to type the highest pen value among HTs. 

I would buff a bit accuracy (from 0.4 to 0.38) and slightly increase the RoF to something about 4 rounds per minute.

But at the same time reduce armour on weackspot to 200mm, to give it real weackspot instead of this false one.

 



MattieW #8 Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:14 AM

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TL DR

Fire your gold spam.


Edited by MattieW, 20 October 2017 - 11:15 AM.


ZlatanArKung #9 Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:18 AM

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I see that like 2 or 3 of the guys commenting on this thread didnt even manage to read the first post. Like Mattiew above here.

Ze_HOFF_fverhoef #10 Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:32 AM

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Fix both Type 4 and 5 by giving them improved penetration on 14cm gun.

Replace 15cm derp for the O-ho 15cm derp gun for those people that do not want to aim too much. Just increase reload speeds compared to the O-ho.

 

Done!



Derethim #11 Posted 20 October 2017 - 12:57 PM

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Improve the penetration I say, reduce HE pen/damage.

Balc0ra #12 Posted 20 October 2017 - 01:20 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 20 October 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

Improve the penetration I say, reduce HE pen/damage.

 

There was no reason to give it that much damage. Gold ammo should have more pen or splash on derp guns. Or like on the KV-2 or SU-152. High AP/HEAT pen vs HE and way less damage. So they will do the same damage vs HT's. But won't one shot tier 8 meds and high tier lights with HE anyway.

 

View Postleggasiini, on 20 October 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

I am in all for removing the stupid 15 cm derp gun and buffing the 14 cm; that is what they should have done in the first place

 

I actually agree. The AP guns on more or less every Jap HT from tier 7 and up are worthless. I used the O-I derp on the tier 7/8 grind. Then again the tier 8 only had normal ammo then. And you ain't getting far with 218 AP pen vs tier X targets. That and when I faced Type 4's in my Type 4 that had AP. They could not pen you even if they went for weak spot's regardless of what gun they had. Not like it's better now after they reduced the view port armor. As now they have 10mm of RNG to go on.

 

Type 4 with the AP gun is arguably the worst grind I've had. Even more so with the stock gun. As you are more or less worthless vs any super heavy. I stayed away from a Maus when I had AP guns. Zero chance even with gold. Issue is that vs the Derp gun, there is no appeal to use it. On the T49 the 90mm gives more DPM vs the derp. But the derp gives more alpha pr shot for hit and runs. If they did the same for the Type 4/5 and made the AP gun equally appealing to use as the Derp. It would fix some issues at least.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Bucifel #13 Posted 20 October 2017 - 04:04 PM

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you just freaked your poll...

because you put same option on both questions:

"does it need buff?"

-No

"what should be buffed?"

-doesnt need buff

 

that means in second question can lead only this option..because everyone who voted NO on first Q, will vote this answer on second Q...and everyone who voted YES on first can vote another 6 options on second Q...

 

and i think it need at least 2 buffs...better pen + dmg

or better handling + acc

or better ROF + handling


Edited by Bucifel, 20 October 2017 - 04:05 PM.





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