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Object 252, (...) the Russians actually think it’s a mediocre tank, if not a terrible tank.


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Aikl #1 Posted 23 October 2017 - 08:38 PM

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This is a little "commentary" on the following (old) article, namely about how difficult balancing is because RU and EU are so different. It's not a critique of TDB, this is what the then-head of 'Making WoT great European-friendly', Anton Pankov (?) and Slava Makarov (pretty sure) said in June.

 

https://thedailyboun...ontributor-day/

 

Wargaming openly admitted they have make several mistakes, that they buffed/nerfed to much some tanks, that they didn’t listen to players feedback, etc.
But here comes a tricky situation when we talk about feedback: it’s different from region to region. How come? For example, Type 4 and Type 5 current situation is a problem for the European player base, but it’s actually not a problem for the Russian player base. Another example is the Russian heavy tank Object 252, while Europeans think the tank is overpowered, the Russians actually thing it’s a mediocre tank, if not a terrible tank.

We've heard this before. Defender isn't that OP on the RU server, because it lacks speed or whatever. However, a few days ago I happened to check the Russian statistics for the Defender. Would anyone like to guess what I saw?

RU

 

EU

 

Bingo. While we all know that Russian tanks aren't necessarily superior, Defender apparently isn't good enough for the Russians. Note the left side of the green graph. That's bad players doing 'average' in their Defender. That's less pronounced on EU, for some reason - and why the graph looks more dramatic. I would guess it's down to sample size or how many bad players bought it because Russian tank.

Well, Defender is kind of a 'moot point', since it's removed from sale """forever""".
So, I'm guessing this isn't the case for the Type 5...?

RU:
EU:

 

 

Goddarnit. Still overperforming - still among the best T10 HTs; on EU about equivalent with the Maus (which in no way is a weak tank, but a lesser target for complaints because it lacks the funny derp gun). Not as bad as the Defender - but almost every premium tank is overperforming 1-2% for different reasons (look at STA-1 vs. STA-2 for instance; it's down to crew, experience with the tank and gold spam, I'm guessing).

 

The Type 5 is not a premium tank, and from what I can gather there is less variation on high-tier winrates; I believe most very good players consider T10 to be way harder to achieve really good winrates in.

 

Bottom line is - both Defender and Type 5 are overperforming on both EU and RU. One might wonder why they don't get around to fixing that broken POS - unless there are long-term plans for superheavies that Wargaming of course won't disclose (more likely subject to waiting on results following the 'tank classes' that puts the Type 5 and Maus against each other, or is supposed to, anyway).



japtank #2 Posted 23 October 2017 - 08:45 PM

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View PostAikl, on 23 October 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

Type 4 and Type 5 current situation is a problem for the European player base, but it’s actually not a problem for the Russian player base.

 

Read again.

 

 

Now read again.

 

 

And again.

 

 

What part of 'not a problem' didn't you understand?



Junglist_ #3 Posted 23 October 2017 - 08:51 PM

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I can't believe they dont find those tanks OP and/or broken is that a reliable source? Probably should go on the Russian forum and Google translate the page and see for myself but who can be bothered with that

Aikl #4 Posted 23 October 2017 - 08:51 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 23 October 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

 

Read again.

 

 

Now read again.

 

 

And again.

 

 

What part of 'not a problem' didn't you understand?

 

Sometimes things are a little bit more about context than just the words. I'm guessing they have other things to complain about. WG likes to fix things according to numbers. These are numbers. If it's overperforming, it most likely needs a fix.

 

The ongoing excuse has been that Russians don't find it a problem - implying that it wasn't overperforming.

 

While the EU forum has little sway, if any at all, you've totally missed the fact that I think making the Type 5 (and other superheavies/slowpoke tanks) less boring is a good idea, namely making agility the main weakness of the tank. Then it can get a more comfy top speed, albeit balanced with acceleration/local mobility fitting of a giant moving bunker. While "realism" isn't exactly what I'm playing this game for,, part of that is "immersion", the feeling of not playing Call of Duty with tanks. Tanks can slide around, for instance. It would only make sense if the giant tanks moved in a way you'd expect.



HundeWurst #5 Posted 23 October 2017 - 08:57 PM

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Interesting. But have you seen and witnessed Russians play?

I mean I only know them from the testserver and the sandbox. But oh boy there is some crazy crapgoing on. They are weird to say the least.



Derethim #6 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:05 PM

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The Russian playerbase is probably defending their OP tank.

I was in Survarium Alpha, which is a free to play game FPS on steam (back then it wasn't) and the Russian side of the forums always had the exact opposite opinion about certain guns, that were broken and OP in every way possible.

 

Of course, the EU/NA part was right about shotguns being broken, but the side, that was louder on the RU side was the people, who defended their powerful toy, because it was better than what anyone else had :trollface:

It's just powercreep. If you have a clan with a website you can even tell your clanmates to say it's not OP on the forums, just to support more powercreep. It's just a game, but this is what was happening in the other game's forums and it was just hilariously stupid :teethhappy: 

And the younger they are, the easier is to convince the other forumites, that it's not OP.

EDIT: Fixed typos


Edited by Derethim, 23 October 2017 - 09:07 PM.


Blubba #7 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:05 PM

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Could it be nationalism?

By that I mean that in Europe, no one nation is represented specifically by such a large part of the community whereas on the Russian server, this may not be the case and so perhaps they are more 'blind' to a Russian tank.

I don't have any figures to back this up. It is purely speculation.



Aikl #8 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:06 PM

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View PostJunglist_, on 23 October 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

I can't believe they dont find those tanks OP and/or broken is that a reliable source? Probably should go on the Russian forum and Google translate the page and see for myself but who can be bothered with that

 

It's the developers themselves. Slava Makarov was one of the "founders" of WoT, I believe. Pankov is the WoT producer (Minsk-based), I believe. The last guy is Thaine Lyman, which was responsible for teaching Wargaming "how to EU". Now he's gone to another project. Should be trustworthy enough if we're looking for Wargaming's stance.


Translating Russian is iffy at best. "Tank" becomes "car" and so forth. Anyway, you know how this forum feels about Type 5. :P

 

View PostWunderWurst, on 23 October 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

Interesting. But have you seen and witnessed Russians play?

I mean I only know them from the testserver and the sandbox. But oh boy there is some crazy crapgoing on. They are weird to say the least.

 

Indeed; but despite the hell on earth RU is supposed to be, the win rate curves would suggest it does remarkably well despite supposedly not fitting into the "rush meta". That's kind of what I find interesting. Defender too, for that matter.

 

In the end, it dwindles down to the reasons for not fixing certain tanks. One of them has been "is fine on RU". It's quite clear here that neither Type 5 or Defender are fine on RU. Either they complain less, thinks it performs OK because "Russian tonk best lol", or... well, the developers are simpy lying.


Edited by Aikl, 24 October 2017 - 08:50 AM.


Derethim #9 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:09 PM

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View PostAikl, on 23 October 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

 "is fine on RU"

It's a known fact but it pisses the hell out of me that they cater to the RU server a lot more than to us -_-


Edited by Derethim, 23 October 2017 - 09:09 PM.


Aikl #10 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:11 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 23 October 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

It's a known fact but it pisses the hell out of me that they cater to the RU server a lot more than to us -_-

 

The point is that apart from the lack of whining (apparently), it's still performing remarkably well!

 

View PostBlubba, on 23 October 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Could it be nationalism?

By that I mean that in Europe, no one nation is represented specifically by such a large part of the community whereas on the Russian server, this may not be the case and so perhaps they are more 'blind' to a Russian tank.

I don't have any figures to back this up. It is purely speculation.

 

​Part of it more than likely is; you have the same effect (just without the tanks being good) in the Wehraboos, that like German stuff.

 

The weird thing is that the Type 5 is performing rather well, is mentioned in the same sentence as the Defender - but is Japanese.

 

 


Edited by Aikl, 23 October 2017 - 09:26 PM.


Anxter_ #11 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:31 PM

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Who gives a [edited]if the type 5 is "fine" and not complained about on RU? 

 

It's a tank that's so fucked up broken on so many levels it just needs a complete rework.



CoDiGGo #12 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:31 PM

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Object 252, while Europeans think the tank is overpowered, the Russians actually thing it’s a mediocre tank, if not a terrible tank.

 

Suuuuuuuuuure



Aikl #13 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:34 PM

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View PostAnxter_, on 23 October 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

Who gives a [edited]if the type 5 is "fine" and not complained about on RU? 

 

It's a tank that's so fucked up broken on so many levels it just needs a complete rework.

 

Point it, it obviously isn't. It's just a lazy [edited]excuse for having that POS credit drain in the game.

commer #14 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:51 PM

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View PostWunderWurst, on 23 October 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

Interesting. But have you seen and witnessed Russians play?

I mean I only know them from the testserver and the sandbox. But oh boy there is some crazy crapgoing on. They are weird to say the least.

 

It seems so but on the other hand their top players still are amazing. Still I was surprised to see Straik and Navi do so good in comps where in RU pubs he can literally sit in the bridge on paris (south heavy area) and not get evaporated.

NUKLEAR_SLUG #15 Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:55 PM

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RU is their biggest market so of course WG are going to listen to them over EU. Would you expect an EU based company to make systemic changes to their game based on the complaints of the RU sector if the situation were reversed?

 

Besides, the RU players apparently have no issue with the Defender so it doesn't matter what the graphs show if their community is quite happy for that situation to be the case. You can quote whatever figures you like, it makes no difference to WGs position of their primary player base is happy with it to be that way.



commer #16 Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:02 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 23 October 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

RU is their biggest market so of course WG are going to listen to them over EU. Would you expect an EU based company to make systemic changes to their game based on the complaints of the RU sector if the situation were reversed?

 

Besides, the RU players apparently have no issue with the Defender so it doesn't matter what the graphs show if their community is quite happy for that situation to be the case. You can quote whatever figures you like, it makes no difference to WGs position of their primary player base is happy with it to be that way.

 

The thing is RU is biggest in terms of players but I'm not sure they bring more revenue than EU since EU players are known to spend MUCH more.

Tidal_Force #17 Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:04 PM

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This is a spectacular display of ignorance. Even half blind clown would see that those tanks are as OP on RU as they are on EU.

 

While it is a fact that some tanks do perform differently on different servers, the broken OP are pretty much never the case.



Junglist_ #18 Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:10 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 23 October 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

RU is their biggest market so of course WG are going to listen to them over EU. Would you expect an EU based company to make systemic changes to their game based on the complaints of the RU sector if the situation were reversed?

 

Besides, the RU players apparently have no issue with the Defender so it doesn't matter what the graphs show if their community is quite happy for that situation to be the case. You can quote whatever figures you like, it makes no difference to WGs position of their primary player base is happy with it to be that way.

 

But then again if WG would care only about RU being happy and RU doesnt think Defender is OP at all why would WG sell that tank only once and even saying at that time they're not gonna bring it back for while (until Christmas obviously)



shane73tank #19 Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:47 PM

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Buff the defender now ! 

Aikl #20 Posted 23 October 2017 - 11:06 PM

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View Postcommer, on 23 October 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

 

The thing is RU is biggest in terms of players but I'm not sure they bring more revenue than EU since EU players are known to spend MUCH more.

 

NA are the highest per-player spenders, followed by EU. RU have so many players it eclipses EU, of course. EU is still the milking cow, I imagine, it's pretty evident we get the short end of the stick in most cases. The Paris office gets entirely crippled when three people go to Bucharest - and we still haven't got any real response to the chitchatstorm.

 Also, EU is community-driven with some CCs answering the stuff they can. Sometimes. Maybe. Russians have developers in the "ask about the game" subsection. Yes, I dare call us the "milking cow" in that regard, even if server costs on EU likely are higher than Moscow/Novosibirsk (RU also has servers on the EU1 and EU2 locations, because of course).

 

View PostTidal_Force, on 23 October 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

This is a spectacular display of ignorance. Even half blind clown would see that those tanks are as OP on RU as they are on EU.

 

While it is a fact that some tanks do perform differently on different servers, the broken OP are pretty much never the case.

 

Yup. Pretty much. Could dig more for tank win rate curves.


Edited by Aikl, 24 October 2017 - 09:58 AM.





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