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Why the Obj 263 line change is bulls#!t and proof that WG doesn't know what the hell they...

Obj 263 Obj 268 Version 4 TD Changes Russian Balance #DontDoItWG Pls

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Poll: What should WarGaming do to the line? (323 members have cast votes)

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What changes should WG implement?

  1. WG should leave the line just as it is (87 votes [26.93%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.93%

  2. WG should keep the Obj 263 as it is at tier 10 but make changes to the lower tiers (7, 8 and 9) (133 votes [41.18%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 41.18%

  3. WG should add the Obj 268 V4 but also keep the Obj 263 as a tier 10 reward tank (like in the case of the Foch 155 and FV215b) (86 votes [26.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.63%

  4. WG should implement the changes that it wants to test in the supertest (i.e. add the Obj 268 V4 and change the entire line) (17 votes [5.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

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matty922117 #1 Posted 27 October 2017 - 12:42 PM

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Rumors and information have come out from the supertest and forums that WG is planning on changing the Obj 263 line. The changes include moving the tier 8, 9, 10 tanks in the line down a tier nerfing their stats and at tier 10 a new tank will be added: the Obj 268 Version 4. The Obj 268 V4 is armed with a 152mm 750 Alpha Damage main armament.

Needless to say, these changes ARE TERRIBLE. I will explain why:
The Obj 263 (and the line in general) have always been somewhat of a novelty in WoT: fast, well armored (most of them) turretless TDs with an emphasis on DPM over Alpha, they have always required a higher level of skill then other TDs given their limited gun Arc and depression that necessitated very good knowledge of the maps and positioning. 
What WG is doing now is completely changing the line: lowering each tank by a tier is increasing the effective alpha damage per tier and (of course) they are nerfing the DPM, the same thing goes for the Obj 268 Version 4, it is getting the standard 750 alpha damage as most other Tier 10 TDs and low DPM. 
These changes are putting the Obj 263 line (possibly, but let's hope not, the future Obj 268 V4 line) more in line with the other TD lines in the game (Obj 268, T110E3 and E4, Chinese TDs etc.)

AND HERE LIES THE PROBLEM: 
PLAYERS DO NOT WANT ANOTHER TIER 10 TD CLONE, there is a reason why the Chinese TD line was a failure: IT'S TOO COMMON. 
The Chinese TD lines interest finishes at tier 8 because of the 560 alpha at tier 8, the tier 9 and 10 are unpopular because they are Obj 704 and 268 clones.
Like I said, the changes that WG want to implement in the Obj 263 line are terrible and they should keep the tier 10 like it is.

SO WHAT SHOULD WG DO TO THE LINE? 
The rarity of the Obj 263 on the battlefield isn't caused by the tier 10 (it's an awesome TD), it isn't even caused by the Tier 9 (also a great TD with a very soft grind btw) the MAIN REASON for the lines "unpopularity"(and by unpopularity I mean low accurance in game and not ineffectiveness) is the tier 7 and 8 grinds, these tanks can be very difficult to play with and grind thought and many times are an insurmountable barrier for many players.
If WG want more players to grind to the Obj 263 the changes must be done at tier 7 and 8.

And finally WG REALLY NEEDS TO STOP COMPLETELY CHANGING LINES IN THE GAME without asking the opinion of players that play those tanks or are grinding towards them (yes, I'm talking about the AMX30B that was completely changed from a long range sniper to a super close range brawler and others).

 

November 2nd Update: (Obj 268 Version 4 SuperTest Changes)

 

WarGaming, after witnessing the absolute s#!tstorm by the community reacting to their proposed changes to the 263 line has decided to "buff" the Obj 268 Version 4.

The Obj 268 Version 4 has, amongst other things, 96 extra damage per minute and 1 degree per second extra track traverse speed (for all intents and purposes​ not much has changed). Although it's nice to see WG updating us on their intentions and being aware of the general discontent of the community there are still 2 MAJOR PROBLEMS with all of this:

N°1: WG said that the changes are being made to make the line more suited for close combat but, even after these micro changes, the lack of DPM, traverse speed and poor gun Arc make the Obj 268 Version 4 unsuited to be a close range brawler (ignoring also the fact that the tank is turretless, A BIG NO NO in close range combat) and if you wanted to use it at long range you can't because of the atrocious 0,43 accuracy. And this brings us to our second problem.

N°2: nobody wanted a close range brawler when they grinded down the 263 line, I'm not saying that the Obj 263 can't brawl, but with it's low alpha, high dpm, great accuracy it really shines at medium to long range, it has always been like this and not only with this tank but with the entire line (and arguably with all TDs except a few like the E3, E4 and a few others). So when WG says that the purpose of this line was always to be a close range brawler I cannot stand here and not call bulls#!t. This line has always been about being a sneaky-[edited]high camo rating low profile TD and WG will destroy this game style if they proceed with these changes.

Like I said a thousand times before: the problem isn't the 268 V4, I would be happy if WG added it, BUT NOT AS A OBJ 263 REPLACEMENT, you will destroy the identity of this line and make it like all the other TD lines (and also worse than the other for that matter).

 

P.S. many players have been suggesting adding the Obj 268 V4 as a replacement for the Tier IX giving it 180mm of armour and a 130mm gun (like on the IS-7, i.e. 490 alpha and 250 pen) this would make the tank more historically accurate and by dropping the SU-122-54 and SU-101 by a tier would make them more competitive, but the Obj 263 is good as it is and should not be touched.

 

 


Edited by matty922117, 02 November 2017 - 10:42 AM.


succmaster #2 Posted 27 October 2017 - 12:45 PM

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The 263 is an amazing tank but the tier 7,8 and 9 are bad.

Nazgarth #3 Posted 27 October 2017 - 12:46 PM

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Agree. They should leave the line alone, with minor tweaks if anything. WG have a reputation for [edited]things up in a big way as of late and cant be trusted with their own product.



leggasiini #4 Posted 27 October 2017 - 01:46 PM

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  • Buff SU-100M1 and SU-101 armor a bit, give latter -3 or -4 depression
  • Nerf SU-122-54 and make it a tier 8 premium, probably bit rebalance it to not make it a clone of the WZ-120-1G FT (the irony, chinese stuff getting copied), or alternatively bit buff it and make it a tier 9 reward tank.
  • Add Object 268 V4 as a tier 9 with historical armor (aka less than now) and a 130 mm gun instead of 152.
  • Keep Object 263 the way it is on tier 10, probably if necessary buff a gun arc and/or depression a little bit

 

The tier 7-8 gets buffed, tier 9 also gets a better tank, there is a new premium (oddly enough, they havent released a Russian tier 8 premium TD yet, and one of the two that are on supertest is likely scrapped) and 263 stays the way it is. Now the line has more consistent playstyle, tier 7-9 are better and 263 stays the way people like it. Clear win situation on all cases instead of the absolutely retarded changes that WG is planning.



ellua #5 Posted 27 October 2017 - 02:11 PM

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263 is kind unique one TD and I like it. Lower tiers in this line are mostly awful.

veyrah #6 Posted 27 October 2017 - 03:00 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 27 October 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

  • Buff SU-100M1 and SU-101 armor a bit, give latter -3 or -4 depression
  • Nerf SU-122-54 and make it a tier 8 premium, probably bit rebalance it to not make it a clone of the WZ-120-1G FT (the irony, chinese stuff getting copied), or alternatively bit buff it and make it a tier 9 reward tank.
  • Add Object 268 V4 as a tier 9 with historical armor (aka less than now) and a 130 mm gun instead of 152.
  • Keep Object 263 the way it is on tier 10, probably if necessary buff a gun arc and/or depression a little bit

 

The tier 7-8 gets buffed, tier 9 also gets a better tank, there is a new premium (oddly enough, they havent released a Russian tier 8 premium TD yet, and one of the two that are on supertest is likely scrapped) and 263 stays the way it is. Now the line has more consistent playstyle, tier 7-9 are better and 263 stays the way people like it. Clear win situation on all cases instead of the absolutely retarded changes that WG is planning.

I like this approach so much.

 

The su12254 was the odd one of the line. By removing that tank from the line and replacing it with the 268-4 with the historical 180mm armor and a 130mm gun, it would become a more consistent line whilst keeping the 268-4 more historically accurate, and we get to keep the 263 at tier 10 which is not a bad TD to begin with. It's the perfect solution!



Celution #7 Posted 27 October 2017 - 03:17 PM

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Murazor, it's time to stop.

 

The suggested changes to the alternate Russian TD branch that hit the SuperTest are absolutely terrible and don't improve it whatsoever. The line was originally designed for those who enjoy mobility, dpm and stealth over raw alpha behemoths. Back when this line was introduced, WG already shot itself in the leg by introducing the SU-122-44 as a tier 7 premium rather than incorporating it into the line. Furthermore, the SU-100M1 and SU-101 have always been garbage and the SU-122-54 has some really awkward statistics to it that make it very uncomfortable to use.

 

I always hoped for the branch to be like this:

 

SU-100 (t6) -> SU-101 (t7) -> SU-122-44 (t8) -> SU-122-54 (t9) -> Object 263 (t10)

SU-100M1 (t7 premium)

 

But oh well, now we have to deal with what we have. So what cán be done to improve the overall quality of the branch? Well first of all, it needs better progression. The current top gun of the SU-100M1, the 100 mm LB-1C is not available on the SU-101 at all, meaning that you get an incredibly painful stock grind with 175 mm pen on a tier 8 TD. Besides, this gun did not receive the buffs the regular version received.

 

I suggest the following:

 

SU-100M1 (tier VII)

  •  Changed the characteristics of the 100 mm LB-1C:
    • Rate of fire decreased from 10.17 rounds/min to 9.42 rounds/min
    • Dispersion at 100 m increased from 0.33 to 0.35
    • UBR-412 AP shell:
      • Penetration increased from 181 to 190 mm
      • Average damage increased from 250 to 270
    • UBR-412P APCR shell:
      • Penetration increased from 235 to 247 mm
      • Average damage increased from 250 to 270
    • UOF-412 HE shell:
      • Average damage increased from 330 to 350

 

SU-101 (tier VIII)

  •  Hitpoints increased from 990 to 1100
  • Tied the SU-122-54 research to the V-2-54 engine rather than the 100 mm D-54S gun
  • Added the 100 mm LB-1C for 16 500 experience, in the research path between the 100 mm D-10S and 100 mm D-54S, with the following characteristics:
    • Gun depression angle: -3 degrees
    • Gun elevation angle: +18 degrees
    • Gun traverse angles: +9.3/-9.3 degrees
    • Dispersion at 100m: 0.35
    • Aiming time: 1.7s
    • Rate of fire: 10 rounds/min
    • Penetration values: 190/247/50
    • Damage values: 270/270/350
  • Changed characteristics of the 122 mm D-25S mod. 1944:
    • Exchanged the UBR-471 AP shell for the ZBM14 APCR shell with 221 mm penetration
    • Exchanged the BR-471D APCR shell for the ZVBK6 HEAT shell with 270 mm penetration
    • Rate of fire decreased from 7.69 rounds/min to 6.77 rounds/min
    • Average base damage per minute reduced from 3000 to 2640
  • Changed characteristics of the 100 mm D-54S:
    • Exchanged the UBR-412B for the UBR-412PB with 264 mm penetration
    • Rate of fire decreased from 8.96 rounds/min to 8.65 rounds/min
    • Average base damage per minute reduced from 2867 to 2767
    • Gun depression angle increased from -2.2 degrees to -3 degrees
  • Changed characteristics of the 122 mm M62-C2:
    • Rate of fire increased from 5 rounds/min to 6 rounds/min
    • Aiming time reduced from 3.1 s to 2.7 s.
    • Average base damage per minute increased from 2200 to 2640
    • Decreased dispersion on gun traverse from 0.16 to 0.12

 

SU-122-54 (tier IX)

  •  Hitpoints increased from 1550 to 1650
  • Moved the 100 mm D-54S out of the main research line (optional research) to the Object 263
  • Changed the characteristics of the 122 mm D-49:
    • Rate of fire decreased from 8.11 rounds/min to 7 rounds/min
    • Dispersion at 100 m decreased from 0.39 to 0.38
    • Average damage per minute reduced from 3000 to 2730
    • UBR-471 AP shell:
      • Penetration increased from 175 to 225 mm
      • Shell velocity increased from 795 m/s to 1007 m/s
    • UBR-471D APCR shell:
      • Penetration increased from 217 to 265 mm
      • Shell velocity increased from 995 m/s to 1259 m/s
  • Changed the characteristics of the 122 mm M62-C2:
    • Dispersion on gun traverse reduced from 0.12 to 0.08

 

Object 263 (tier X)

  •  Changed the characteristics of the 130 mm S-70A:
    • Rate of fire decreased from 5.61 to 5.41
    • UBR-482M:
      • Average damage increased from 550 to 570.
    • UBR-482PM:
      • Average damage increased from 550 to 570.
    • UOF-482M:
      • Average damage increased from 750 to 770.

 

I have some ideas for how to improve the overall design and playability of the SU-122-44 (the tier 7 premium) as well. I could add it if people are interested. This tank has a pretty broken design where it is extremely oppressive against lower and equal tiers but rather underwhelming against higher tiers, at least on the current pool of maps and in the current meta.


Edited by Celution, 27 October 2017 - 03:20 PM.


Uebergewicht #8 Posted 27 October 2017 - 07:02 PM

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I wholeheartedly agree that WG should keep their hands of the 263. It is perfectly fine as it is and the proposed change destroys all the appeal of the line for no good reason. There are a variety of good alternatives how to approach this rework, some of them suggested here, but the bottom line should be that the 263 should stay like it is. Whether you make it reward, whether the 268/4 becomes tier 9, I am not too concerned, but please leave the 263 be - let it keep its strong identity.

succmaster #9 Posted 27 October 2017 - 08:54 PM

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I kinda hate lines where the only good tanks are the high tiers. For me, a line matters if it's fun.

Uebergewicht #10 Posted 27 October 2017 - 10:05 PM

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View Postsuccmaster, on 27 October 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

I kinda hate lines where the only good tanks are the high tiers. For me, a line matters if it's fun.

 

Nothing against that logic. The problem is that WG is attempting to take the high tier of that line, which already is plenty of fun, and turn it into a boring, unoriginal and unappealing slog of a TD.

Thalgardis #11 Posted 27 October 2017 - 11:17 PM

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Su100m1 is  fun  as  it is maybe a bit  more  pen.  Su  101 is painful  thanks to the -2 gun depression.  The 122-54  just needs a broader gun arc, 0.2  shorter aiming time and as luxury  gun depression. Why make it another  useless  T8  Premium there are enough already. 

Obj. 263  is fine as it is. 


Edited by Thalgardis, 27 October 2017 - 11:18 PM.


TsundereWaffle #12 Posted 27 October 2017 - 11:23 PM

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Can we pull a Bat-Chat and force WG to not touch the line? And to whoever is saying that the SU-122-54 should be changed, no fegit >:c

rush0620 #13 Posted 28 October 2017 - 06:53 AM

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Object 268 version 5 better option to tier 10.

leggasiini #14 Posted 28 October 2017 - 08:41 AM

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View PostTsundereWaffle, on 28 October 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

 And to whoever is saying that the SU-122-54 should be changed, no fegit >:c

 

Would you mind if they kept it where it is and just buffed the gun stats even further, tho? :^)


Edited by leggasiini, 28 October 2017 - 08:42 AM.


sgtYester #15 Posted 28 October 2017 - 09:43 AM

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263 rly needs an armor buff and a gun arc buff.

 

thats it, thats all it needs.  



pathed91 #16 Posted 28 October 2017 - 09:45 AM

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The proposed changes to the obj.430 line are just as bad, they change the stats of the line that makes it unique and just make it bland and uninteresting.

 

https://thedailyboun...branch-changes/

 

Why remove tanks with rear mounted turrets when that is the whole point of the line? It would have made more sense if the had put a buffed STG guard

at tier 9 and moved obj.430 II to tier 10. So much for changing the lines to "suit their roles".

 

I have to agree with leggasiini with adding obj.268 v4 at tier 9, but there would be no reason to remove su-122-54, make it so you can access the other TD line with it like KV-13 gives you access to both the IS and A44. 



Balc0ra #17 Posted 28 October 2017 - 09:49 AM

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View PostUebergewicht, on 27 October 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

 

Nothing against that logic. The problem is that WG is attempting to take the high tier of that line, which already is plenty of fun, and turn it into a boring, unoriginal and unappealing slog of a TD.

 

Well to be fair, that TD line is more or less as unpopular as the French tanks. At one point the tier X was as rare to see as the old S@!t barn after a bit, tho later it became more and more common.

Dr_Oolen #18 Posted 28 October 2017 - 09:51 AM

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I dont see why 263 should be changed in any way whatsoever. Its one of the very few t10 tds that actually dont suck [edited]and are at the same time not broken in any way and that arent aids to play due to awful maneuvrability/gun handling.

 

Id even say that the t7 in that line isnt a problem at all and is good enough. But i guess WG wants to make the line "copypaste tonks" anyway, so i guess to get the whole line to play like 263 (which id say is basically a yolowagon with good dpm and great frontal armor and good maneuvrability). The line could be changed like so:

 

su-100m1 - buff superstructure+mantlet area to be all 210+ effective (from 100+), buff ufp to be +- 180 effective (from 125-160), nerf lfp to be +- 100 effective (from 155), buff pen to 210/245 (from 183/235), nerf accuracy to 0.4 (from 0.33), nerf camo from 4/12/20 to 3/8/12

su-101 - buff superstructure+mantlet to 240+ (180+), ufp to +-210 (155-175), lfp to 130 (150), buff gun depression to 4 (2.2), remove the m62 gun (again), buff pen to 250 (219), buff HP to 1150 (990), nerf accuracy to 0.38 (0.35), nerf camo to 3/8/12 (4/12/20)

su-122-54 - either replace by the 268v4 with armor  inbetween 101 and 263, with 440 alpha gun, or: buff ufp to 270+ (140+) and keep weakspots on top or remove weakspots on top and make the front 250+, accuracy 0.37 (0.35), camo 3/9/13 (4/13/21)

 

The buffs might seem over the top at first, but imo 263 is a pretty good proof that a td with poor gun arc, somewhat low alpha, great dpm and maneuvrability with most of frontal armor being immune to most shells (but a very weak large enough lfp that is pretty much guaranteed pen for everything under any angle) isnt op in this meta on these maps. Also, 263 currently has camo about as good as the camo i proposed for the changed tonks. So obviously id say its just fine for such TDs.



fwhaatpiraat #19 Posted 28 October 2017 - 09:54 AM

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I have the su-100m1 in the garage. The good reload, dpm, dispersion and aim time make it a nice sniper. But at all other things, it sucks. In a lot of situations (maps) you just can't sit at ~400 meters and snipe so you have to play on the second line, like a medium tank. But the bad gun depression and the lack of a turret make it really clumsy to poke over a ridge or around a corner. The layout (gun/turret at the rear) make it even worse in such situations. Also, you cant sidescrape so you just get fμcked in so many ways. A T20 is despite the less penetration, accuracy and dpm (view range also) much stronger in many situations.

 

A better gun arc, a degree more gun depression and a high traverse speed (not e25 fast, but you get the point), could solve this somehow I think, without comprising its sniper roots too much.

 

Actually, while writing this: wouldn't it be cool if this line becomes the 'turretless medium line'? Mobile, high dpm, low alpha tds with good mobility. The bad armor and low hp is the tradeoff. The 263 could stay the same I suppose, since its quite good and people like it. The tier 7,8 and 9 vehicles need changes on traverse, gun handling, gun arc and gun depression. So they aren't completely useless if the player presses 'w'. Is this an idea?



ZlatanArKung #20 Posted 28 October 2017 - 09:59 AM

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There is no reason to change the rear mounted Ruski medium line. Unless you want to create copy paste mediums.

Just like with 263 change,  the change to the medium line is just a way to remove difference in the game in favour of all tanks being as similar as [edited]possible.

Both these changes are terribly bad and not thought through. Neither is working with what makes the line unique and both strives to make the lines same as other lines.




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