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VIII MM

TIER VIII MM

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zeekaa00 #1 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:20 AM

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Wargaming, is it going to take years before you fix a simple problem regarding VIII MM? Is the problem so difficult to solve or you just don't care?

I don't have the data(YOU DO) but it feels like you meet tier X every other game with tier VIII. I have heard this complaint 1000 times for months now. I don't want to meet tier VI so often, but it is so frustrating to never ever meet them. One game in a 30. Again, I don't have the data, YOU DO!

Please, would you care to look it up & maybe fix it? Would that be so complicated?

It does feel like you don't give a rats a*s what the community thinks.
 

Edited by zeekaa00, 28 October 2017 - 11:21 AM.


Jigabachi #2 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:24 AM

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It's a rather difficult problem to solve, but they could at least keep us informed about their efforts to fix it. But the complete lack of communication and their blatant lies were a problem ever since.

Edited by Jigabachi, 28 October 2017 - 11:25 AM.


zeekaa00 #3 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 28 October 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

It's a rather difficult problem to solve, but they could at least keep us informed about their efforts to fix it. But the complete lack of communication and their blatant lies were a problem ever since.

 

I am aware that algorithms implemented in the MM are far from simple, but some things are not acceptable and should be fixed ASAP no matter the difficulty of the problem.

bstb3 #4 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:31 AM

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Yeah, its pretty much gotten to the point now where if they do actually communicate something it's time to get worried. Re the original complaint, yes MM needs fixing - but whatever they did last patch doesn't seem to have helped. At this point it would almost be better just to go back to the original random +2/-2 MM and forget these templates until they get the numbers worked out - that couldn't be that hard to do, surely.

G01ngToxicCommand0 #5 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:37 AM

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View Postzeekaa00, on 28 October 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Wargaming, is it going to take years before you fix a simple problem regarding VIII MM? Is the problem so difficult to solve or you just don't care?

I don't have the data(YOU DO) but it feels like you meet tier X every other game with tier VIII. I have heard this complaint 1000 times for months now. I don't want to meet tier VI so often, but it is so frustrating to never ever meet them. One game in a 30. Again, I don't have the data, YOU DO!

Please, would you care to look it up & maybe fix it? Would that be so complicated?

It does feel like you don't give a rats a*s what the community thinks.
 

 

Having a tier based game inevitably leads to problems with game balance and matchmaking that can never be solved no matter what is done and player frustration is equally inevitable. Matchmaking will never be fixed nor work in a way that does not bring frustration and anger among the players - it is the very purpose of it in order to entice and motivate players into spending money to progress faster in the tech trees.



Eaglax #6 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:44 AM

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it's difficult to "fix" it because that's what you get from the 3/5/7, 5/10 and 15 template system, from a statistical standpoint.

if all 3 templates have the same probability (which it isn't, 3/5/7 is preferred), you would have a chance of ~7% (3/45) to meet tier 6 with a tier 8. which would mean ~2 games out of 30.

If there would be a 3/5/7 template only, you would have a 20% chance of meeting tier 6 (3/15)



Junglist_ #7 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:44 AM

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Well according to WG there is no problem with t8 MM and this is what players asked for so there's nothing to fix

zeekaa00 #8 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:54 AM

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View PostG01ngToxicCommand0, on 28 October 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

 

Having a tier based game inevitably leads to problems with game balance and matchmaking that can never be solved no matter what is done and player frustration is equally inevitable. Matchmaking will never be fixed nor work in a way that does not bring frustration and anger among the players - it is the very purpose of it in order to entice and motivate players into spending money to progress faster in the tech trees.

 

Yes, frustration is inevitable. Yes, it can never be balanced. But theoretically, it can always be improved and it should be improved because it's not a rocket science.

Taudlitz #9 Posted 28 October 2017 - 11:55 AM

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View PostEaglax, on 28 October 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

it's difficult to "fix" it because that's what you get from the 3/5/7, 5/10 and 15 template system, from a statistical standpoint.

if all 3 templates have the same probability (which it isn't, 3/5/7 is preferred), you would have a chance of ~7% (3/45) to meet tier 6 with a tier 8. which would mean ~2 games out of 30.

If there would be a 3/5/7 template only, you would have a 20% chance of meeting tier 6 (3/15)

 

wouldnt having all templates with same probability mean 33% top tier games? (edit: not counting full tier 8 as top tier, only 3/5/7 and 5/10 where tier 8 is top)

Edited by Taudlitz, 28 October 2017 - 11:57 AM.


AliceUnchained #10 Posted 28 October 2017 - 12:43 PM

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View PostTaudlitz, on 28 October 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

wouldnt having all templates with same probability mean 33% top tier games? (edit: not counting full tier 8 as top tier, only 3/5/7 and 5/10 where tier 8 is top)

 

Would be, if such probabilities are actually set. Which I sincerely doubt they are. And even if they were set, forming teams as quickly as possible seems to trump everything else for MM. So given enough Tier X available for MM on a constant basis, means you well get matched with those Tier X in your VIII almost constantly. 

 

Whatever Wargaming did to 'improve' MM with the recent patch, my experience is that Tier VIII still gets matched with Tier X as often as, or even more often than before (but in all fairness patch notes stated nothing in this regard). On top of that, it seems a lot of games end up lopsided. And the whole 'role' matching of top tiers is a fluke.



Taudlitz #11 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:06 PM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 28 October 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

 

Would be, if such probabilities are actually set. Which I sincerely doubt they are. And even if they were set, forming teams as quickly as possible seems to trump everything else for MM. So given enough Tier X available for MM on a constant basis, means you well get matched with those Tier X in your VIII almost constantly. 

 

Whatever Wargaming did to 'improve' MM with the recent patch, my experience is that Tier VIII still gets matched with Tier X as often as, or even more often than before (but in all fairness patch notes stated nothing in this regard). On top of that, it seems a lot of games end up lopsided. And the whole 'role' matching of top tiers is a fluke.

 

yeah the short waiting time seems to be the highest priority. IMO some entropic function should be implemented that would increase chance of getting top tie battle with each non top tier battle in row. But if minimal waiting time is realy the priority then I dont see much options unless there would be lot of full tier 10 battles

Isharial #12 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:09 PM

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View PostTaudlitz, on 28 October 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

 

yeah the short waiting time seems to be the highest priority. IMO some entropic function should be implemented that would increase chance of getting top tie battle with each non top tier battle in row. But if minimal waiting time is realy the priority then I dont see much options unless there would be lot of full tier 10 battles

 

even if there were a lot of T10 battles, it just forces the oversaturation of T8 upon the lower tiers...

 

all doing that does is move the problem from T8-10, to T6-8...


 

it doesn't solve anything



Isharial #13 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:23 PM

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View PostG01ngToxicCommand0, on 28 October 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

 

Having a tier based game inevitably leads to problems with game balance and matchmaking that can never be solved no matter what is done and player frustration is equally inevitable. Matchmaking will never be fixed nor work in a way that does not bring frustration and anger among the players - it is the very purpose of it in order to entice and motivate players into spending money to progress faster in the tech trees.

 

basically this ^

 

the best thing WG can do in this situation is a global rebalance and bring the tiers closer together in terms of performance, however that can lead to stalement as "why bother going up when I can kill them easy with *insert tank 2 tiers lower?"


 

they do however need to atleast give lower tiers a chance, weakspots like MG ports, cupola's etc.. need to be made so that there is somewhere for those tanks to aim

it should be hard to kill higher tier tanks, but it shouldn't be "load gold on its backside or die" like maus, defender and whatnot are...


 

rebalance existing tanks

give tanks weakspots, but give them ones that can be hidden when the tank is used as it was meant for

T-29 hulldown or IS-3 hiding lower plate..


 

shouldn't be any of this "sit in front of them and bounce without doing anything" style tanks, ones like VK 100P when top tier.... a bunch of T6 aren't going to be greatly useful against it atm...


 

a T-34-85 with AP has a 60% chance to pen the sides and rear.. and that's dead flat and at no real range.. in reality, its not got much chance at penning the VK at all...


 

and people ask why there's so much gold being flung....



Eaglax #14 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:31 PM

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View PostTaudlitz, on 28 October 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

 

wouldnt having all templates with same probability mean 33% top tier games? (edit: not counting full tier 8 as top tier, only 3/5/7 and 5/10 where tier 8 is top)

 

I didn't say top tier, I said "meeting tier 6", and you only have 3 out of 45 possibilities => ~7%

If you are highest tier tank then it is 8 out of 45 => ~18%

I have no idea why you think it's 33% :amazed:

 

View PostAliceUnchained, on 28 October 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

 

Would be, if such probabilities are actually set. Which I sincerely doubt they are. And even if they were set, forming teams as quickly as possible seems to trump everything else for MM. So given enough Tier X available for MM on a constant basis, means you well get matched with those Tier X in your VIII almost constantly.

 

probabilities are not set, they are just probabilities....it should be clear that in a 3/5/7 you MUST be more often low tier than high tier... ofc you are right and the MM forces more tier 8 into a battle with tier 10, but even if they would "fix" that, you would still be low tier very often, that's what I want to point out.

 

One possibility would be to make tier 10 only battles the preferred template for tier 10, to make tier 8 a bit more enjoyable

 

 



Rati_Festa #15 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:45 PM

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What they need to do is expand grand battles at T10. Then introduce grand battles at T8 that would allieviate both pain points. The more same tier battles they introduce the more balance in the game.

zeekaa00 #16 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:52 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 28 October 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

 

even if there were a lot of T10 battles, it just forces the oversaturation of T8 upon the lower tiers...

 

all doing that does is move the problem from T8-10, to T6-8...


 

it doesn't solve anything

 

Increase VIII battles then... A lot can be done to improve things.

Isharial #17 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:54 PM

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View PostEaglax, on 28 October 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

 

I didn't say top tier, I said "meeting tier 6", and you only have 3 out of 45 possibilities => ~7%

If you are highest tier tank then it is 8 out of 45 => ~18%

I have no idea why you think it's 33% :amazed:

 

 

probabilities are not set, they are just probabilities....it should be clear that in a 3/5/7 you MUST be more often low tier than high tier... ofc you are right and the MM forces more tier 8 into a battle with tier 10, but even if they would "fix" that, you would still be low tier very often, that's what I want to point out.

 

One possibility would be to make tier 10 only battles the preferred template for tier 10, to make tier 8 a bit more enjoyable

 

 

 

 

it would be 33% theoretical chance, as there being 3 categories for the game to place you in

the actual chance is different because its not a perfect world, and the numbers for each tier are different and T8 being overplayed


 

both you, and Taudlitz are right


 

2nd part is tinfoil, I suggest bacofoil, its better on your teeth :facepalm:


 

the ONLY reason T8 get lower tier so often is because there are a lot of T10 and only 6 of them in any battle.. then you have the oversaturation of T8 which means the majority of T6 players (of which there aren't going to be many left) will be dragged into games with only 6 T8's, the chances of being in one of those games is very small because of the massive number of T8's


 

the problem with T8, is T8 itself



Muishond11 #18 Posted 28 October 2017 - 01:59 PM

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Switching to +1/-1 MM would make a massive difference and would mean everyone has a lot more fun.

Isharial #19 Posted 28 October 2017 - 02:02 PM

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View Postzeekaa00, on 28 October 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

 

Increase VIII battles then... A lot can be done to improve things.

 

and how do you propose that?

grand battles for T8? same tier MM?


 

and then there's the problem with Pref MM T8's? what will you do with those? as they are clearly worse than other T8's... grand battles with a bunch of WZ 111 vs VK 00P? GG to the VK's...


 

" a lot can be done" but I don't see you suggesting anything? you can say as much as you want about the systems, 3-5-7 being the only choice, but that doesn't alleviate the problem on T8... it doesn't make the game any more balanced and there are still the same amount of T8's being dragged into T10 battles..


 

there's only a couple of things you can do, A is make grand battles for T8 (excluding T8 preff MM tanks) or B, which is rebalance the entirety of the game and bring the tiers closer together

they need to stop making T8 premiums and focus on spreading the population across the tiers, not focusing on one


 

View PostMuishond11, on 28 October 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

Switching to +1/-1 MM would make a massive difference and would mean everyone has a lot more fun.

 

really? are you speaking from experience or just gut instinct?

 

because the game had a far larger tier spread before, and people found it fun enough to stick around then... changing it to +1-1MM will probably make the game worse for those of us that play support tanks...


 

it wouldn't make a massive difference, it would destroy the balance we have left in this game.. and ruin lower tiers even more...


 



zeekaa00 #20 Posted 28 October 2017 - 02:03 PM

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View PostMuishond11, on 28 October 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

Switching to +1/-1 MM would make a massive difference and would mean everyone has a lot more fun.

 

It sure would't hurt to test it a little bit.




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