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spg arty feedback

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Ph3lan #1 Posted 30 October 2017 - 11:58 AM

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Hi all!

 

Since arty is always a hot topic please use this thread to discuss your SPG related thoughts/concerns/suggestions. Discuss away, but remember: #artylivesmatter :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Kozzy #2 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:00 PM

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Finally!  Why was the old one taken down?

 

Anyway, to get things started:  "Remove arty from the game please!".



Pansenmann #3 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:03 PM

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View PostKozzy, on 30 October 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

Finally!  Why was the old one taken down?

 

Anyway, to get things started:  "Remove arty from the game please!".

 

I think I have to take opposing side then?

 

"Revert arty to pre 8.6 performance but limit it to 1 per team"

 

Why?

* Being able to possible remove 1 tank per shot

* accuracy would be improved again

* artillery could then defend key positions more reliable

* 1 per team makes things predictable and leaves room for strategic movement.

 

 


Edited by Pansenmann, 30 October 2017 - 12:05 PM.


430Umad #4 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:04 PM

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pointless

__H3H3__ #5 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:15 PM

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arty = hard to play

Kozzy #6 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:16 PM

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View PostPansenmann, on 30 October 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

 

I think I have to take opposing side then?

 

"Revert arty to pre 8.6 performance but limit it to 1 per team"

 

 

Although I do loath arty (and your opinion of keeping them ;) ) I imagine that my opinion on arty won't be the one in line with the vast majority. 

 

The guns' accuracy feels ok to me, I didn't actually notice any less shots on target now compared to be fore (could inspect my older SPGs to compare).  I certainly don't have any problem doing 4-5 times my own HP in damage in my SPGs.  My damage done/received ratio in my SPGs is also by far the highest, my survival chance in SPGs is the highest, it's the only class I can eat my dinner while playing and not affect my results in at all.  I feel the class is way too easy to play, too easy to contribute to each game with a much (relatively) lower risk to myself.  


Edited by Kozzy, 31 October 2017 - 09:22 AM.


Ph3lan #7 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:16 PM

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View PostKozzy, on 30 October 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

Finally!  Why was the old one taken down?

 

Anyway, to get things started:  "Remove arty from the game please!".

 

The old one was outdated since it referred to the "old" version of arties, but since there are a lot of individual threads being created we thought it would be a good idea to have most of the discussion in one place. This makes it easier for us as well to see what people think and gather the feedback. 

Kozzy #8 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:19 PM

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View PostPh3lan, on 30 October 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

 

The old one was outdated since it referred to the "old" version of arties, but since there are a lot of individual threads being created we thought it would be a good idea to have most of the discussion in one place. This makes it easier for us as well to see what people think and gather the feedback. 

 

I'm all for one consolidated thread on a topic (MM thread / Suggestions thread etc) but we did have a thread running (the one I was referring to), could probably have pinned and renamed that one:

http://forum.worldof...tillery-thread/

 

 


Edited by Kozzy, 30 October 2017 - 12:19 PM.


Aikl #9 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:25 PM

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View PostPh3lan, on 30 October 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

 

The old one was outdated since it referred to the "old" version of arties, but since there are a lot of individual threads being created we thought it would be a good idea to have most of the discussion in one place. This makes it easier for us as well to see what people think and gather the feedback. 

 

There sure are a lot of threads being created, stickying a topic to avoid the forum being spammed down by one particular topic is a rather nice idea. Thanks, Ph3lan!

 

As for what I think, it's better not put in words for the time being. Regarding artillery, however: Pansenmann's suggestion is not that far out; one of the main 'issues' with arty at the moment is the amount of and ability to hit very reliably.

The key issue remains that the maps are so un-dynamic that SPGs have a rather easy time clicking continously all game if people dare peek. Fixing the maps would go a long way in correcting the majority of problems in WoT - TDs, artillery, the bottom-tier challenge and so on.


Edited by Aikl, 30 October 2017 - 12:29 PM.


Derethim #10 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:27 PM

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I'm for 2 arties per team. Agreed, that 3 is too much, but so many times I was about to get killed, with my opponent having but a sliver of a health left and a skilled arty teammate saved me.

Could've happened about 50 times or more.

I don't play arty too much, mind you. I find it boring, so I stick to doing personal missions in it.

 



Horatio__Caine #11 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:29 PM

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Remove arty from the game. So that, you don’t have to open arty discussion thread anymore dear Ph3lan

Ph3lan #12 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:33 PM

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View PostKozzy, on 30 October 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

 

I'm all for one consolidated thread on a topic (MM thread / Suggestions thread etc) but we did have a thread running (the one I was referring to), could probably have pinned and renamed that one:

http://forum.worldof...tillery-thread/

 

 

Hmm...yep, I could have done that, sorry about that. I guess that is a lesson for all of us, let's look for existing threads before creating new ones. Hopefully you guys can learn from my mistakes :) Let's look at the bright side though, now we have a new thread and a clean slate. 



TankkiPoju #13 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:34 PM

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When is WG going to remove arty from the game?

 

If you can't do that, here is other suggestions:

 

- add arty free game mode

- add option to have no arties

- add extra premium time with no artys, either via consumables or extra cost. I would pay this.

- add button that allows me to click the arty player if he can click me from his base.

 

All your nice new game graphics aren't going to matter at all, because 80% of map space cant be used if there is arty in the game.

 


Edited by TankkiPoju, 30 October 2017 - 12:38 PM.


RockyRoller #14 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:38 PM

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well SPG haters can now buy this Cun on Wheels

https://www.amazon.c...ds=diecast tank

 

don't blame me mods, I never named it!



leggasiini #15 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:38 PM

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REMOVE_ARTY_FROM_THE_GAME

 

/thread

 

 

:^)



Aikl #16 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:39 PM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 30 October 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

When is WG going to remove arty from the game?

 

When it's determined if standard TD gameplay can replace it for players who don't really want to drive tanks. SPGs and TDs are part of the same low-risk/high-reward system, where nerfing or fixing one will force a shift to the other.

 

I bet the super-camping positions will go first. Not sure what is more annoying, indirect fire covering 80% of the map or a stealth sniper covering 30-40% way more effectively.



TankkiPoju #17 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:46 PM

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View PostAikl, on 30 October 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

When it's determined if standard TD gameplay can replace it for players who don't really want to drive tanks. SPGs and TDs are part of the same low-risk/high-reward system, where nerfing or fixing one will force a shift to the other.

 

WG already nerfed all TDs twice and removed a lot of the TD firing lines. TDs cant actually affect gameplay if they sit in base all game like arty does. Not anymore.

 

Besides, arty is ZERO RISK gameplay, unlike TDs. Thats a big difference.

 

And how about the people who play every tank like a base camping TD anyway?

 

And arty doesnt even actually focus the TDs. They focus the people who actually try to play the game. Arty is basically a mechanism to punish the people who don't want to camp.

 

 



Aikl #18 Posted 30 October 2017 - 01:05 PM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 30 October 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

 

Spoiler

 

 

For a TD player, the class he's driving doesn't really matter. TDs have characteristics catering to the playstyle, and being a TD is a fair way of ensuring that your enemy equivalent won't contribute actively either. TDs are more than likely the worst class if you're 'reverse statpadding', that is trying hard to get your winrate as low as possible. Even two PMM TDs platooning and going effectively AFK need to severely mess with their team to get under 40%.

 

Anyway, it's not about nerfing TDs outright. As a concept they're interesting - turretless heavy tanks or dedicated sniper-support, but rather making them able to contribute to gameplay in a somewhat sensible way - that doesn't involve seven TDs sitting in the corner of Fisherman's Bay or the base hill on Mountain Pass. Stuff like that would be less of a problem if there was any reliable way of countering it, or those positions either didn't exist, offered less 'capacity' or had some drawbacks.

Sure, you can argue that maps cater to different tank classes, but even as useless as the 'open' flanks on certain maps are, they do offer the opportunity to force the 'heavy flank' to pull back to defend the base if you break through - i.e. it's actually something you can use as a counter.

 

Exactly how much risk it involves to sit in the positions described is debateable. Even if it's not zero risk, the risk-to-reward ratio is rather huge still. Of course, one can't divide by arty zero, but I'm sure you get my point.

 

Fixing the maps might not prevent every base camper, but it would serve to limit how much they're able to do in a base-defense situation. If a basecamping player got 2-3k damage out of it, he's likely to think it's a good way of playing - because he did allright and was the last one to die. Sort of the same attitude that drives people into going to the beach on Overlord or the valley on Lakeville - survival and damage potential. Well, those maps kind of need those flanks to not be total crap, but still, there's a reason we call that sort of stuff 'noob traps'.

 

The role of punishing playing the game is quite apparent, and SPGs are overall way more capable, but there's no denying that there are multiple maps where the TD positions are way more capable of denying active gameplay, in particular because they can largely fend for themselves. Slap a camo net and binos on your TD, park in a bush and enjoy 'nerfed gameplay' in practice.

(Murovanka is sort of close to a map where you can camp almost anywhere, yet there are at least enough space to smoke out campers through crossfire and multiple approaches. I could almost mistake it for a well-designed map, which is quite rare even in a pool of 30+.)


Edited by Aikl, 30 October 2017 - 01:08 PM.


tajj7 #19 Posted 30 October 2017 - 01:29 PM

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The 'TD problem' such as it is, is not problem with the class itself (there are certainly some badly balanced TDs out there like the 183s for example) but is more a symptom of -

 

1. Poor players who only want to camp. 

2. Bad map design that allows these players to camp in very strong positions that can be flanked + lack of more balanced positions for TDs to use in the middle of the map for those that want to play their TDs more actively and thus at higher level of risk. (though the crap players won't ever use these positions).

3. Extreme balancing of some TD classes, particularly those that have extreme alpha that overly punish those who try to attack and take risks against these passive campers with little risk needed on the TD player's side (yes that is whiffs of arty there). The extreme camo TDs are also a problem (Swedish, Borsig, E 25 etc.) as they encourage a similar playstyle and can often fire without getting spotted.  

 

This leaves a situation where flanks are not pushed and players do not want to progress because of base camping TDs. Mainly because these TDs can one shot/take half your HP, or who you will never spot them whilst they take you down with their DPM, from OP spots that have elevation, hard and soft cover, are not easily flanked and are surrounded by open ground. This creates stale and campy gameplay on many maps.

 

You'll never fix the player issue, bad players will camp. But if you fix the base camping spots so they basically don't exist and any idiot who does it is easily spotted and killed, plus fix the extreme punishing alpha or obscene camo so that these tanks are harder to play, then I doubt you'll see much issues with TDs.

 

This is in constrast with arty where the core mechanic itself is the problem, TDs can be fixed for a better game, I am not sure artillery can be because fundamentally indirect fire is too powerful, it has no counter, it makes it too easy to play and too low risk and it allows one player to focus another with impunity. 

 

Such is the strength of indirect fire.  Basically spawn into a game, fire from where you spawn, target one particular player who is spotted over and over until that player is either dead or has been forced to camp because they can do nothing else to you, rinse and repeat until you have won or lost.  

 

You can make TDs harder to play and more balanced. TDs cannot focus so easily and so risk free, good TD play requires a decent skill set and awareness (in fact playing turretless TDs actively is very hard due to map issues) 

 

You can't make arty harder to play because indirect fire makes it easy, you will struggle to stop the focus because indirect fire makes it so easy to do, you will struggle to make arty more risky and needing more awareness because indirect fire makes it so risk free and needing so little awareness.

 

Indirect fire is just too powerful ever to balanced properly in a game like this and will always cause player frustration because it allows player A with next to no effort to damage player B, and player B cannot fight back. 

 

Best option with current mechanics IMO, as full removal is highly unlikely, is reduce arty numbers to max 1 per side and to reduce HE penetration to zero.

 

1 arty focusing you is annoying but with re-usable repair kits and med kits, plus some luck you can still get on with your game.

 

HE penetration to zero is to stop arty going after lightly armoured targets over targets they should be attacking to help their team, just because they want a penetration. 



Mrjj007 #20 Posted 30 October 2017 - 01:43 PM

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I think that arty should be limited to one per team just like carriers in world of warships. From my experience they have similar abilities, e.g. striking enemys from across the map.





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