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Does MM split multiple instances of certain tanks across the teams?

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Kozzy #1 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:00 AM

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For example the E25; whenever I play this tank and there is another E25 in the battle they will always be on the enemy team.  If there are even more (can't remember the last time I saw 3 in one battle) they are split:  1 vs 1, 1 vs 2, 2 vs 2 etc, never 2 vs 0 for example.

 

Is this just a mad theory?  Has WG ever mentioned this kind of thing?  I guess I could analyse some replays and actually provide evidence to back up the feels but wanted to see if anyone else had observed this.  I am fairly sure this happens with BatChat 25ts as well.  

 

This is obviously without platooning taken into consideration.


Edited by Kozzy, 01 November 2017 - 01:30 PM.


Pvt_Duffer #2 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:10 AM

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WG have already said they evenly split TD's & LT's (what was that 9.19?), I am guessing that they haven't completely thrown out the "tank weight" secret stat that was used to "balance teams"

 

This was in the 9.20.something update notes, and given the speciality of the E25 I would think that applies here,

 

"the matchmaker now looks into the intended roles each tank plays in combat and ensures each side has a similar number of vehicles that play the same role. Of course, their exact number might differ, but this difference is one vehicle at the most.!"



Kozzy #3 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:15 AM

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View PostPvt_Duffer, on 01 November 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

WG have already said they evenly split TD's & LT's (what was that 9.19?), I am guessing that they haven't completely thrown out the "tank weight" secret stat that was used to "balance teams"

 

This was in the 9.20.something update notes, and given the speciality of the E25 I would think that applies here,

 

"the matchmaker now looks into the intended roles each tank plays in combat and ensures each side has a similar number of vehicles that play the same role. Of course, their exact number might differ, but this difference is one vehicle at the most.!"

 

I know about the MM trying to balance some of the classes of tanks (TD, LT, SPG) but I didn't know that individual tanks were selected.  So if at T7 there are 4 TDs in the battle you would never get 2 x E25 on one side and a St Emil + Su 152 on the other.  It always seems to split the E25s up and then worry about the other TDs.

Pvt_Duffer #4 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:29 AM

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View PostKozzy, on 01 November 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

 

I know about the MM trying to balance some of the classes of tanks (TD, LT, SPG) but I didn't know that individual tanks were selected.  So if at T7 there are 4 TDs in the battle you would never get 2 x E25 on one side and a St Emil + Su 152 on the other.  It always seems to split the E25s up and then worry about the other TDs.

 

That's certainly the implication of the last part: "Numbers will differ by one at most",

Same patch as the one that supposed to stop the  5 Type 5s facing 5 Leopard 1s style MM.

 

Thing with the MM is I'm not sure you can say never, as with the above, it won't want to wait too long to find an extra leopard or Type 5, so you get a 3/2 versus 2/3, difference is one vehicle at the most, but WG regularly state if the MM is taking too long it basically throws the rules out.

 

Edit as you noted, if you consider platoons, a 3 man E25 platoon would/could be waiting a while for another 3 man E25 platoon to come along.

 

 


Edited by Pvt_Duffer, 01 November 2017 - 10:31 AM.


tajj7 #5 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:34 AM

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That role matching doesn't apply to tier 7 IIRC, it's tier 8 and above. So I'd say it's coincidence and the TD matching thing. Probably because the E 25 is limited MM tier 7, and the MM has to match it against another TD, then likely in the same pool of queuing tanks is other E 25s

 

Though in some cases the pool of tanks in those 'roles' is so small it's like 30% chance the other tank will be the same tank. Like I think the STRV 103B is basically matched against other STRVs or the Grille. 

 

Also before the recent changes to the MM, it was quite common for the MM to lump all tanks of the same type on one team, I saw games where one team had like 5 Bat Chats and then our team had like 4 Obj. 140s etc. But that has now changed. 



jabster #6 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:42 AM

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They did introduce some tank balancing between sub-classes so think super heavy vs. super heavy in the last patch or so. More interesting before the revamp of the MM I believe there was a ‘rule’ that the difference in individual tanks should be no more than be no more than one. The new MM seemed to ditch that so maybe that’s now been put back in?

Kozzy #7 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:50 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 01 November 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

That role matching doesn't apply to tier 7 IIRC, it's tier 8 and above. So I'd say it's coincidence and the TD matching thing. Probably because the E 25 is limited MM tier 7, and the MM has to match it against another TD, then likely in the same pool of queuing tanks is other E 25s

 

Though in some cases the pool of tanks in those 'roles' is so small it's like 30% chance the other tank will be the same tank. Like I think the STRV 103B is basically matched against other STRVs or the Grille. 

 

Also before the recent changes to the MM, it was quite common for the MM to lump all tanks of the same type on one team, I saw games where one team had like 5 Bat Chats and then our team had like 4 Obj. 140s etc. But that has now changed. 

 

Ah, I didn't realise it started at tier 8, thanks.  It could be coincidence and as you say possibly due to pref MM tanks, I handn't bothered to notice if the Krupp-Steyr was treated similarly to my suspicions.  I did notice that before the patch (it may even have been a couple before that) that tanks of a similar type seemed to actually be clumped on one team.  Now the opposite appears to be true BUT only for some types of tank.  

 

View Postjabster, on 01 November 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

They did introduce some tank balancing between sub-classes so think super heavy vs. super heavy in the last patch or so. More interesting before the revamp of the MM I believe there was a ‘rule’ that the difference in individual tanks should be no more than be no more than one. The new MM seemed to ditch that so maybe that’s now been put back in?

 

Interesting.  So if 3 Bats were in battle if would try to put 2 on 1 team and 1 on the other and avoid putting all three on one team?

Edited by Kozzy, 01 November 2017 - 11:05 AM.


jabster #8 Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:56 AM

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View PostKozzy, on 01 November 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

 

Ah, I didn't realise it started at tier 8, thanks.  It could be coincidence and as you say possibly due to pref MM tanks, I hand't bothered to notice if the Krupp-Steyr was treated similarly to my suspicions.  I did, notice that before the patch (it may even have been a couple before that) that tanks of a similar type seemed to actually be clumped on one team.  Now the opposite appears to be true BUT only for some types of tank.  

 

 

Interesting.  So if 3 Bats were in battle if would try to put 2 on 1 team and 1 on the other and avoid putting all three on one team?

 

I don’t remember anything official but I think it’s mentioned on the wiki. It ceratinly seemed to chime with my experience in particular games with hordes of Pz IC. That seemed to change with the introduction of 3-5-7. I haven’t played for a couple of weeks so not sure if it’s changed again but it would explain what you’re seeing.

magkiln #9 Posted 01 November 2017 - 11:29 AM

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View PostKozzy, on 01 November 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

 

Ah, I didn't realise it started at tier 8, thanks.  It could be coincidence and as you say possibly due to pref MM tanks, I handn't bothered to notice if the Krupp-Steyr was treated similarly to my suspicions.  I did notice that before the patch (it may even have been a couple before that) that tanks of a similar type seemed to actually be clumped on one team.  Now the opposite appears to be true BUT only for some types of tank.  

 

 

Interesting.  So if 3 Bats were in battle if would try to put 2 on 1 team and 1 on the other and avoid putting all three on one team?

 

I don't think it applies to Bats. The last I saw it was only about superheavies, and even then only about types, rather than individual classes. So if there are two Mauses in the queue, they get split up. Or, if there are also a few Type 5s in the queue,  one team may get two Mauses  and the other gets two Type 5s.

Rati_Festa #10 Posted 01 November 2017 - 11:41 AM

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Whenever I play my e25 there is usually another one on the other team, although when I play other T7 tanks I don't see them as often. It's like the MM goes and grabs another one. I rarely platoon with another e25 and we often face 2 E25s as well. My Type62 has the same MM as well from my experience ( ie it matches against another Type62)

Kozzy #11 Posted 01 November 2017 - 11:51 AM

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View Postmagkiln, on 01 November 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

 

I don't think it applies to Bats. The last I saw it was only about superheavies, and even then only about types, rather than individual classes. So if there are two Mauses in the queue, they get split up. Or, if there are also a few Type 5s in the queue,  one team may get two Mauses  and the other gets two Type 5s.

 

I might just be observation bias, like I said I haven't bothered to gather any evidence but just had a 'feeling' about it.  Will need to get a replay analyser or something as I have 1,000s of replays saved.

 

View PostRati_Festa, on 01 November 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Whenever I play my e25 there is usually another one on the other team, although when I play other T7 tanks I don't see them as often. It's like the MM goes and grabs another one. I rarely platoon with another e25 and we often face 2 E25s as well. My Type62 has the same MM as well from my experience ( ie it matches against another Type62)

 

This is exactly what I (feel) I have been seeing.  I never get on a team with another E25 when the enemy has none.  So much so I wondered if WG did take certain tanks into extra consideration almost as if they were aware that certain tanks are indeed OP (as the E25 clearly is).

 



qpranger #12 Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:30 PM

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View PostKozzy, on 01 November 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

For example the E25; whenever I play this tank and there is another E25 in the battle they will always be on the enemy team.  If there are even more (can't remember the last time I saw 3 in one battle) they are split:  1 vs 1, 1 vs 2, 2 vs 2 etc, never 2 vs 0 for example.

 

If this just a mad theory?  Has WG ever mentioned this kind of thing?  I guess I could analyse some replays and actually provide evidence to back up the feels but wanted to see if anyone else had observed this.  I am fairly sure this happens with BatChat 25ts as well.  

 

This is obviously without platooning taken into consideration.

 



tajj7 #13 Posted 01 November 2017 - 01:19 PM

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View Postmagkiln, on 01 November 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

 

I don't think it applies to Bats. The last I saw it was only about superheavies, and even then only about types, rather than individual classes. So if there are two Mauses in the queue, they get split up. Or, if there are also a few Type 5s in the queue,  one team may get two Mauses  and the other gets two Type 5s.

 

It applies to Bat Chats, there is a group by role containing the Bat Chat and TVP etc. 

 

I also believe what Jabster says is correct about the difference being a max of 1, so 2v1 Bat Chats.

 

Cannot find the full patch notes though that explained all this. 



jabster #14 Posted 01 November 2017 - 01:29 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 01 November 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

 

It applies to Bat Chats, there is a group by role containing the Bat Chat and TVP etc. 

 

I also believe what Jabster says is correct about the difference being a max of 1, so 2v1 Bat Chats.

 

Cannot find the full patch notes though that explained all this. 

 

The patch notes seem a bit vague on exactly what was done although I think there was a thread talking about the change in more detail. The one difference ‘rule’ was I believe in the game, then seemed to have been removed. Maybe that wasn’t intentional and they put it back in?

 

As Kozzy says though, what really needs to be done is analysis of a large batch of replays and not the feels.



Balc0ra #15 Posted 01 November 2017 - 01:59 PM

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View PostKozzy, on 01 November 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

Interesting.  So if 3 Bats were in battle if would try to put 2 on 1 team and 1 on the other and avoid putting all three on one team?

 

That or find TVP's to balance it out. As clip mediums is one kind etc. Just like they now don't put a 50b vs a Maus as the only top tier HT on each team anymore. They will try and find a super heavy for both. Then again... the usual "if MM allows it" rule still applies.

tajj7 #16 Posted 01 November 2017 - 02:41 PM

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View Postjabster, on 01 November 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

 

The patch notes seem a bit vague on exactly what was done although I think there was a thread talking about the change in more detail. The one difference ‘rule’ was I believe in the game, then seemed to have been removed. Maybe that wasn’t intentional and they put it back in?

 

As Kozzy says though, what really needs to be done is analysis of a large batch of replays and not the feels.

 

There was a more detailed news item on the MM changes, showing all the groups of vehicles in a graphic but I can't find it. I'm sure the one difference rule was also mentioned but maybe its a new version of it. 

Kozzy #17 Posted 01 November 2017 - 03:02 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 01 November 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

 

That or find TVP's to balance it out. As clip mediums is one kind etc. Just like they now don't put a 50b vs a Maus as the only top tier HT on each team anymore. They will try and find a super heavy for both. Then again... the usual "if MM allows it" rule still applies.

 

That does make sense TBH.  Although, hasn't there been a lot of whining on the forums about such things actually NOT being matched up?

 

View Posttajj7, on 01 November 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

 

There was a more detailed news item on the MM changes, showing all the groups of vehicles in a graphic but I can't find it. I'm sure the one difference rule was also mentioned but maybe its a new version of it. 

 

I would be keen to see a breakdown of all the 'sub-class' of tanks.  Things like the BC25t and TVP are obvious but what about Leopard, CentAx, STB etc.  Also, you mentioned earlier that this was only taken into account from tier 8 up (is that what you meant?) if so then the lower tiers are just matched based on 'main-class' (TD) and if they have pref MM or not, is that about right?

tajj7 #18 Posted 01 November 2017 - 04:26 PM

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View PostKozzy, on 01 November 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Also, you mentioned earlier that this was only taken into account from tier 8 up (is that what you meant?) if so then the lower tiers are just matched based on 'main-class' (TD) and if they have pref MM or not, is that about right?

 

Found it - 

 

https://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/general-news/920-1-matchmaker-improvements/






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