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KV-5 Why its glory is lost


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blsbill #1 Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:41 PM

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Well. This one used to be a true beast before 2 years or so...One of the best moneymakers out there a total fear for many players due to its armor and hp pool. Since the release of the sealclubbing premiums like the Defender or Patriot/Liberte/Chrysler its armor cannot match these ''modern'' beasts.And the terrible thing is that it cannot penetrate them  frontally without gold ammo(and even that is not enough most of the time.) It was one of the lowest penetrating guns even 3 years ago,but it was the armor back then that made it special (combined with hp pool and ramming). The game has changed a lot in the last years,armor is being increased in general, many tanks got a penetration buff, but this russian heavy tank was left out.

There are many players including myself that leave it to rot in the garage and get dust. It simply cannot play against other heavies is skirmishes, it gets penned by everyone in the weakspot which is impossible to miss,and not to talk about randoms when you have to face tanks like Type 4 Heavy/OHO/Emils and stuff like that. I feel it was some euros for me spent for nothing.I bought it to earn credits.I don fire premium ammo with my premium tanks to increase the profit of every battle.But simply 167 pen is a joke.It was also a couple of years back,but now its even more.

  My proposals

1-Leave the tank as it is but increase the penetration to 200. Still premium MM

2-Remove the weakspot and give it the same armor as the rest of the hull, penetration goes to 185. Still premium MM

3-Penetration goes 225, Weakspot gets buffed and change the special MM to regular MM.

 

I would love to roll this beast again. And would like to hear your thoughts on that!


Edited by blsbill, 02 November 2017 - 12:44 PM.


KLguns #2 Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:49 PM

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It can still be fun: but I rarely play mine: http://wot-record.com/replay/39761/klguns_kv_5_still_stronk

 

But yeah, it could use some more pen.



commer #3 Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:50 PM

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View Postblsbill, on 02 November 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Well. This one used to be a true beast before 2 years or so...One of the best moneymakers out there a total fear for many players due to its armor and hp pool. Since the release of the sealclubbing premiums like the Defender or Patriot/Liberte/Chrysler its armor cannot match these ''modern'' beasts.And the terrible thing is that it cannot penetrate them  frontally without gold ammo(and even that is not enough most of the time.) It was one of the lowest penetrating guns even 3 years ago,but it was the armor back then that made it special (combined with hp pool and ramming). The game has changed a lot in the last years,armor is being increased in general, many tanks got a penetration buff, but this russian heavy tank was left out.

There are many players including myself that leave it to rot in the garage and get dust. It simply cannot play against other heavies is skirmishes, it gets penned by everyone in the weakspot which is impossible to miss,and not to talk about randoms when you have to face tanks like Type 4 Heavy/OHO/Emils and stuff like that. I feel it was some euros for me spent for nothing.I bought it to earn credits.I don fire premium ammo with my premium tanks to increase the profit of every battle.But simply 167 pen is a joke.It was also a couple of years back,but now its even more.

  My proposals

1-Leave the tank as it is but increase the penetration to 200. Still premium MM

2-Remove the weakspot and give it the same armor as the rest of the hull, penetration goes to 185. Still premium MM

3-Penetration goes 225, Weakspot gets buffed and change the special MM to regular MM.

 

I would love to roll this beast again. And would like to hear your thoughts on that!

 

Turret armor is as much of a problem as is the hull. Turret face is butter.

The_W #4 Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:55 PM

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KV5 definitely is not balanced compared to IS6 (both have pref. MM) in my opinion, and it's ridiculous compared to the Tier 8 super-IS7 object 252U/defender.

I agree it needs a buff, I would say the armor is useless simply because of the turret in the front that screams " DO NOT SHOOT HERE ", and im pretty sure you're gonna use the front of this tank 70% of the time in close distance skirmish. I think 183 of pen would be fine, the T44 used to have that much and it could somewhat compete with Tier 8 heavy's frontst without being too reliable, and keeping the premium MM and maybe a smoll buff to the DPS too to compensate it's sluggish mobility and non existant armor



ZlatanArKung #5 Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:56 PM

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Yes, it is a terrible tank now.
Better not to be played.

AliceUnchained #6 Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:57 PM

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Yep. The KV-5 is one of MANY tanks which got powercreeped into oblivion and Wargaming seems extremely slow (reluctant even?) to address these issues. Looking at the newer premium tanks released (especially Tier VIII) it's just insulting for those who bought premium tanks when they were still balanced around the concept of being somewhat inferior to an elite regular Tier VIII. Now that Wargaming has foregone that approach (which I think is a mistake) all those older premium tanks should be brought up to the new standard.

 

Then again, the current approach of buffing everything hardly can be considered healthy for the game. So perhaps offering owners of old, inferior, premium tanks a full refund or a trade in at purchase price might be a better option (and thus obviously is never going to be considered by Wargaming).



Phobos4321 #7 Posted 02 November 2017 - 01:11 PM

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2 years ago it wasnt really any better than now

 

why was it so great/regarded as great ? 

it saw T4 tanks with the mm of 2011  and they couldnt  do anything vs it

than again there were no T10 tds, less players with T9/10 tanks 

also there wasnt that much to compare it to just the is3, tiger2, vk 4502A (really bad back than) T32, T34 and the Löwe

oh and the stuff you had to pay gold for your premium ammo  made armor worth quite a bit more than nowadays 


Edited by Phobos4321, 02 November 2017 - 01:38 PM.


THE_JACK_OF_HEARTS #8 Posted 02 November 2017 - 01:30 PM

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Old Tech.

Search_Warrant #9 Posted 02 November 2017 - 02:51 PM

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Erm..so... "my preff tank is not as good as broken OP defender, and it cant stand up to tier 9 tanks and O-HO derp, this tank needs buffing to none preff standard please"? thats what im reading right?

Edited by Search_Warrant, 02 November 2017 - 02:52 PM.


ZlatanArKung #10 Posted 02 November 2017 - 02:54 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 02 November 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

Erm..so... "my preff tank is not as good as broken OP defender, and it cant stand up to tier 9 tanks and O-HO derp, this tank needs buffing to none preff standard please"? thats what im reading right?

More like.

"All old premium tanks are useless due to powercreep".



Search_Warrant #11 Posted 02 November 2017 - 02:58 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 02 November 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

More like.

"All old premium tanks are useless due to powercreep".

 

Its an old PREFF MM tank. you dont meet tier 10. i know it sucks and i wish my T-34-3 could shoot straight with its garbage 175pen. but as long as these tanks have Preff WG will simply not buff them to competative standards.

Thejagdpanther #12 Posted 02 November 2017 - 02:59 PM

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Leave such tanks as they are, but give to the new broken premiums the +2/-1 mm.

You will "free" some places in a decent mm for old preferential tier 8 premiums and the other normal tier 8.



leggasiini #13 Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:07 PM

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It can be still moderately fun but IF, and ONLY IF:

 

1) spam the hell out of gold to the point it wont make credits very well (unless you activate credit reserves, are a good player and have premium account). 

2) actually know how to play it

3) you have a very good crew on it

 

And even then it can feel really powercreeped and useless at some matches, but on other hand you can get very nice matches with it if you get onto a good matchup, because on 3-5-7 match it will typically utterly faceroll the enemy team.

 

Its quite hard to buff though without making it utterly overpowered because how unusual the vehicle is. I think the best option is simply to give it bit more penetration (like 190 / 240) and buff the mantlet armor and maybe the turret front (it would still have more weakspots than most of current tanks), assuming if it keeps pref mm (and I certainly would like to keep the pref mm because f*ck fighting tier 10s). Really, not a big change but if you know how to play the tank it would be more than enough. 

 

I would like to see WG changing the MM for preferential MM tanks, though, so they are matched against PMM tanks and are more top tier. That kind of change would already be a quite good buff for the KV-5, tho it would still need a slight pen buff to fight other tier 8s and 9s bit better in case it actually has to do that.


Edited by leggasiini, 02 November 2017 - 03:09 PM.


Balc0ra #14 Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:22 PM

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View Postblsbill, on 02 November 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

 

1-Leave the tank as it is but increase the penetration to 200. Still premium MM

2-Remove the weakspot and give it the same armor as the rest of the hull, penetration goes to 185. Still premium MM

3-Penetration goes 225, Weakspot gets buffed and change the special MM to regular MM.

 

 

Well that's the issue. WG sees pref MM as a problem on tier 8. They don't know if they should remove it or keep it on the KV-5 and IS-6 etc. Give it a moderate pen buff, so it still needs gold vs the newer tier 8 prem HT's. Or even the VK 100.01. Or give it enough pen to deal with those, but remove the pref MM. They said that up to March, all updates will focus on buffs. And considering there are two line changes we know of for the Russian tech tree. I hope the first patch next year will also buff the IS-6 and KV-5 if the patch is Russian focused.

 

I don't mind the way the T26E4 is atm. It still works and I want to keep the MM on it. But if they buffed my IS-6 to such a level that it would lose it's pref MM. I would not mind it at all. In fact I would still welcome it. Issue is, would others? Or would there be an outrage and a demand for refunds from the majority?


Edited by Balc0ra, 02 November 2017 - 03:24 PM.


Search_Warrant #15 Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:27 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 02 November 2017 - 02:22 PM, said:

 

Well that's the issue. WG sees pref MM as a problem on tier 8. They don't know if they should remove it or keep it on the KV-5 and IS-6 etc. Give it a moderate pen buff, so it still needs gold vs the newer tier 8 prem HT's. Or even the VK 100.01. Or give it enough pen to deal with those, but remove the pref MM. They said that up to March, all updates will focus on buffs. And considering there are two line changes we know of for the Russian tech tree. I hope the first patch next year will also buff the IS-6 and KV-5 if the patch is Russian focused.

 

I don't mind the way the T26E4 is atm. It still works and I want to keep the MM on it. But if they buffed my IS-6 to such a level that it would lose it's pref MM. I would not mind it at all. In fact I would still welcome it. Issue is, would others? Or would there be an outrage and a demand for refunds from the majority?

 

I hear they made 2 guns for tanks on blitz with some preff tanks.? one gun gave preff MM and the other gave full MM.

leggasiini #16 Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:34 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 02 November 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

 

I hear they made 2 guns for tanks on blitz with some preff tanks.? one gun gave preff MM and the other gave full MM.

 

Yes, KV-5 and IS-6 have two gun options on Blitz (among with the guns they have on PC as well, KV-5 gets KV-4's gun while IS-6 gets the BL-9; both having worse DPM than the original guns). However, the higher pen gun does not give them full MM; instead, the change was AFAIK done because they implemented the +1 / -1 MM to Blitz and thus removing the "pref MM", so they kinda had to treat the pref MM tanks as equals to regular MM tanks, which is reasoning for the alternate gun options of the KV-5 and IS-6. Not sure how they treated the other PMM tanks, though. 

Edited by leggasiini, 02 November 2017 - 03:35 PM.


Havenless #17 Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:38 PM

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The fix KV-5 needs is a penetration buff to around 200 and gold pen to around 240. Done. Absolutely no other changes are needed.

 

KV-5 has always been the tank for me that would even survive a nuclear war. Whatever changes they make to the game, KV-5 somehow remains relevant. It's still very competitive if you're fine with only making moderate profit and shoot gold at targets that have lots of armor. The problem is that it doesn't really make credits anymore when it can't AP penetrate anything that has armor and even its gold round(219 APCR) is lower than what most tier 8 tanks have as regular AP which also has better normalization. The shell speed helps but KV-5 is quite weak at penetrating armored tanks nowadays which is becoming a problem with WG buffing armor left and right.

 

I was playing KV-5 last month just to figure out how competitive the tank is in the present and the new HOF system would help me keep track of it. I was pleasantly surprised, although I must admit that the HOF ratings make me scratch my head. The rating system is quite retarded because it seems to prioritize damage blocked very highly and there's a guy with 4% lower win rate, 270 damage less, 0.35 kills less, 100 XP less but he finished above me because he blocked 200 damage more and had like 30 assist more. At least I topped the damage per game chart. Anyway, I finished third in KV-5 and managed almost 65% win rate, 2220 damage per game, 1.7 kills per game and almost 1.5k blocked per game that are still exceptional stats for a tier 8 tank. The tank is without a doubt still very competitive. With more aggressive gold spam I would have probably made it to 2.4-2.5k but I still fire quite a bit of AP because I want to make at least some credits, although mostly I play it because it's a fun tank. The only issue with the tank is its credit making potential and this could easily be fixed with the buff I suggested that wouldn't break the tank in any way, just make it a better earner and more comfortable to play.

 

If you ask me, KV-5 is not a tank that would ever work survive normal matchmaking. At least it wouldn't be the same tank anymore. If Wargaming goes to touch my KV-5's preferential matchmaking and gives it 250 penetration with retardproof armor I will demand a refund without ever playing a battle with it. I have too many "heavy" tanks in my garage that I refuse to play because the +2/-2 matchmaking ruins their highlights and turns them into slow, poorly armored support tanks in most battles. I don't want another KV-4 which I happily sold ages ago because it was a KV-5 with more retardproof armor for top/mid tier games that would be see plenty of bottom tier games. I rather take the weak spots that tier 6s can penetrate and always get an average/above average tank with less variance. This is why KV-5 is my most played tank. Pity it no longer nets as much profit as before. If you want to buff it, just give it the pen buffs and it will be fine. But if you're trying to put it against Mauses and overbuff the armor, I'm taking my money back.

 

TL;DR: Just bring its penetration values up to date and all is good. The tank itself is perfectly fine otherwise. It's not slow, the armor works(still almost 1.5k blocked per game despite everyone supposedly being an "expert" in dealing with KV-5 according to their own words, combined with 1780 health), the gun has a good mix of alpha and DPM and it hits close range snap shots well enough. Yet at the same time it has obvious weak spots that even tier 6s can penetrate, it has much less alpha than most same tier heavies and it rewards good plays while punishing poor use of armor. In terms of gameplay it's exactly what a heavy tank should be. The glory hasn't gone anywhere, just the profitability.


Edited by Havenless, 02 November 2017 - 03:57 PM.


Search_Warrant #18 Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:42 PM

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there are mediums with less pen than 200 without preff. nice joke mate.

Havenless #19 Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:43 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 02 November 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

there are mediums with less pen than 200 without preff. nice joke mate.

 

And? There are also ones with well above 200 that are still useless. How is this relevant to KV-5? On the other hand, FCM has 212 penetration with preferential matchmaking and it's widely considered a power crept tank. I don't see the problem with giving the PMM tanks 200 AP pen.

 

If all the tanks in the game needed to be sh*t just because tier 8 mediums are sh*t... well, we'd have a better balanced game. But when has that stopped Wargaming so how is it relevant?


Edited by Havenless, 02 November 2017 - 03:45 PM.


leggasiini #20 Posted 02 November 2017 - 04:05 PM

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View PostHavenless, on 02 November 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

 there's a guy with 4% lower win rate, 270 damage less, 0.35 kills less, 100 XP less but he finished above me because he blocked 200 damage more and had like 30 assist more.

:hiding:

 

Spoiler

 

View PostSearch_Warrant, on 02 November 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

there are mediums with less pen than 200 without preff. nice joke mate.

 

They are faster, nimbler and can flank better. There is no arguing that anything below 200 AP pen is quite low these days (even by pref MM standards), though. Similar buff to tanks like T-34-3 and Super Pershing wouldn't really make them too good either because buffing pen wouldn't improve their greatest strength, which is, just like with the KV-5, bullying lower tier vehicles. All it would do is to improve their severely handicapped matchups bit better (and even then they would still suffer against certain heavily armored targets) as well as increasing their profitability.

 

But yeah, just like Per Haven said, simple pen buff to ~ 200 / 240 wouldn't even be too much, and it would be a just fine buff for KV-5. I would like to see the mantlet getting buffed as well, just because how weak it is, but I can definitely live with just the pen buff. It actually wouldn't make the tank that much stronger but it would just improve its credit earning potential as well as making it little better against some retarded tanks like VK 100 and Defender. Against tanks that KV-5 is already strong the pen buff wouldn't even make difference.


Edited by leggasiini, 02 November 2017 - 04:08 PM.





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