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The Soviet 122 mm D-25T(/S)


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Thuis001 #1 Posted 11 November 2017 - 09:49 PM

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Hello everyone today I wanted to talk about the Soviet (and in some cases Chinese) D-25T/S, for those of you who don't know it, this is the gun that is the top gun on the following tanks:
Spoiler

and a choice or mid-gun on these:

Spoiler

While this gun has amazing alpha on tier VII and still very nice alpha on tier VIII the rest of the gun is bad. And while I think that the accuracy and gun handling being bad is fine, and a choice. The fact that this gun has quite bad pen, (relatively speaking) on 175 kinda ruins it. Because: you don't have the accuracy to shoot at weakspots, and you don't have the pen to deal damage otherwise. 

 

Right now I want to focus on the IS/KV-3. While the 390 alpha is nice for a tier VII Heavy, the fact that they have the worst pen on any tier VII heavy topgun (except for the BP, which NEEDS a change very badly, but that is an entirely different topic) at 175 kinda ruins it. Heck, they struggle to pen most tier VII heavies, (exept for the Tiger I, but yeah, it's a Tiger) and can't even pen the front of an O-Ni without spamming prem. (oke, to be fair they can, but have only about 30% chance or less in normal combat situations, and that is when the O-Ni is not angling AT ALL) but, what do I propose to buff? Well, buff the penetration on the D-25T to 192, this way it has a pen that is more like the rest of the heavies and that can actually make the tank more usefull when not stomping poor tier V's. Besides that just leave everything the same, I mean exept for the poor pen this is a good gun.

 

For the D-25S aka the TD variant of the gun:

While 192 is good for a tier VII heavy, for a TD it might be on the low side so something like 202 is a bit more appropriate.

 

Keep in mind that this is about the D-25T(/S) and not the D-2-5T(/S) the last one is fine for tier VI and as a mid gun for tier VII.

Let me know what you think about it.



VarzA #2 Posted 11 November 2017 - 10:03 PM

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View PostThuis001, on 11 November 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Hello everyone today I wanted to talk about the Soviet (and in some cases Chinese) D-25T/S, for those of you who don't know it, this is the gun that is the top gun on the following tanks:
Spoiler

and a choice or mid-gun on these:

Spoiler

While this gun has amazing alpha on tier VII and still very nice alpha on tier VIII the rest of the gun is bad. And while I think that the accuracy and gun handling being bad is fine, and a choice. The fact that this gun has quite bad pen, (relatively speaking) on 175 kinda ruins it. Because: you don't have the accuracy to shoot at weakspots, and you don't have the pen to deal damage otherwise. 

 

Right now I want to focus on the IS/KV-3. While the 390 alpha is nice for a tier VII Heavy, the fact that they have the worst pen on any tier VII heavy topgun (except for the BP, which NEEDS a change very badly, but that is an entirely different topic) at 175 kinda ruins it. Heck, they struggle to pen most tier VII heavies, (exept for the Tiger I, but yeah, it's a Tiger) and can't even pen the front of an O-Ni without spamming prem. (oke, to be fair they can, but have only about 30% chance or less in normal combat situations, and that is when the O-Ni is not angling AT ALL) but, what do I propose to buff? Well, buff the penetration on the D-25T to 192, this way it has a pen that is more like the rest of the heavies and that can actually make the tank more usefull when not stomping poor tier V's. Besides that just leave everything the same, I mean exept for the poor pen this is a good gun.

 

For the D-25S aka the TD variant of the gun:

While 192 is good for a tier VII heavy, for a TD it might be on the low side so something like 202 is a bit more appropriate.

 

Keep in mind that this is about the D-25T(/S) and not the D-2-5T(/S) the last one is fine for tier VI and as a mid gun for tier VII.

Let me know what you think about it.

 

I don't think you understand balance in this game.

 

if anything, the 390 alpha of the D-25T is too powerful.

The long aimtime, lower pen and long reload time is something you have to trade in order to get the alpha that can 2 shot a t6 med and 3 shot a t7 med.

Furthermore, the 122mm D-25T is know to spanshot like crazy and even in it's somewhat nerfed state on the chinese IS-2 it still makes that tank one of the best t7 heavies.



FluffyRedFox #3 Posted 11 November 2017 - 10:08 PM

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175 pen is fine at tier 7, its only on the pref MM tier 8 premiums where the 175 pen guns get really annoying.

Balc0ra #4 Posted 11 November 2017 - 10:09 PM

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It's not the worst on tier 7 as it still works there, as I don't see it as an issue on my IS-2 or 122-44 atm. As alpha vs pen there is what makes it not broken. it it had 190 or over 200 like the Tiger with that alpha. It would shift the balance to much. On tier 8 however it's not ideal.  As pure tier 8 games full of VK 100.01's and Defenders kinda ruins it more so then tier 9's with that pen.

 

But lets wait and see what the coming patches next year will bring. As balance is something the next few patches will focus on. As the D-25t on the tier 8's is up for discussion atm regarding that. As there are a few tier 8 premiums that have it. Issue is.. that on tanks like the IS-6 and the T-34-3 that have it, they don't know what to do. They say limited MM is a problem on tier 8. And that they don't know if they should buff the pen to around 200 and leave the pref MM. Or give it 230 to 240, and buff the gold pen even more. But give it +2 MM. Once that is decided. The guns will be buffed accordingly. This includes the 168 pen KV-5 gun. That they see as more of an issue.


Edited by Balc0ra, 11 November 2017 - 10:11 PM.


vasilinhorulezz #5 Posted 11 November 2017 - 10:15 PM

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390 boomstick is something a lot of tier 8 heavies still dream of :).

All in all, with the exception of Chinese monstrosities at your own tier there aren't many stuff you can't pen with 175mm pen, and you trade that for highest alpha on the tier.

And 122mm means it's very capable of overmatching up to 40mm armor, that's the turret roof of a Tiger II.

Also you don't need accuracy, because most of the time you brawl, that means close range, KV3 is a lower tier bully mostly, yea it suffers against higher tiers, but you are not supposed to fight them on equal terms, you just have to be smarter and avoid going against them head on. 

The meta has tweaked balance a bit, but by my experience T7 still gets decent MM, unlike T8.

 

Also

learn where to aim.


 

Uebergewicht #6 Posted 11 November 2017 - 11:32 PM

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A buff for the IS-4!? Count me in! :P

 

But seriously, the gun is fine. Yeah its derpy as heck and then pen is meh, but if it would hit and pen even close as often as the gun on, say, a Tiger, it would be totally overpowered. Those tanks rely on the alpha damage and your playstyle needs to shift so you can capitalize on that.



HundeWurst #7 Posted 12 November 2017 - 01:39 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 11 November 2017 - 10:09 PM, said:

It's not the worst on tier 7 as it still works there, as I don't see it as an issue on my IS-2 or 122-44 atm. As alpha vs pen there is what makes it not broken. it it had 190 or over 200 like the Tiger with that alpha. It would shift the balance to much. On tier 8 however it's not ideal.  As pure tier 8 games full of VK 100.01's and Defenders kinda ruins it more so then tier 9's with that pen.

 

But lets wait and see what the coming patches next year will bring. As balance is something the next few patches will focus on. As the D-25t on the tier 8's is up for discussion atm regarding that. As there are a few tier 8 premiums that have it. Issue is.. that on tanks like the IS-6 and the T-34-3 that have it, they don't know what to do. They say limited MM is a problem on tier 8. And that they don't know if they should buff the pen to around 200 and leave the pref MM. Or give it 230 to 240, and buff the gold pen even more. But give it +2 MM. Once that is decided. The guns will be buffed accordingly. This includes the 168 pen KV-5 gun. That they see as more of an issue.

 

What kind of a lame excuse is that from the side of Wargaming? They dont have a problem releasing completly broken OP tier 8 premiums any slightly better player could have seen ages before the release, but they wont give the old tier 8 premiums with special MM a good gun...

That makes no sense. Give all the tier 8 premiums the 221 mm penetration APCR shell as standard ammo, and the HEAT as premium (like what IS3-A and IS-5 already have). Even such a buff wont make these tanks overpowered. And if they might be to strong just make that change and remove them from sales forever and ever.

 

PS: A buff to 200mm penetration is just as useless as no buff at all.... There is hardly any difference between these anyway. It needs to be a meaningfull buff.

 

Ontopic: The D-25T is an alright gun for its tier. The IS(2) is easily the second best tier 7 tank you can get your hands on after the T-29. THere is nothing wrong with it on tier 7. However you are right on tier 8 its more than lackluster these days due to the ever ongoing powercreep which also picks up speed.

 



Chopin #8 Posted 12 November 2017 - 03:05 AM

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If you have problems with pen, you can always load 250 mm premium HEAT. :trollface: It has more pen than tiger`s premium apcr round, which is only 237 IIRC. 

on d25t you get 75 mm increase, on german only 30something.

 I think tier 7 heavies are quite balanced, there are only two exceptions: t29 might be too good, and black prince is totally underpowered.

Try playing t-25/2 though :trollface: , you will reevaluate your views about d25t being bad...


Edited by Chopin, 12 November 2017 - 03:32 AM.


PayMore #9 Posted 12 November 2017 - 05:43 PM

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I see that gun as a representation of quality of wot developers, plus its a good argument for bot developers.

magkiln #10 Posted 12 November 2017 - 06:10 PM

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View PostThuis001, on 11 November 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Hello everyone today I wanted to talk about the Soviet (and in some cases Chinese) D-25T/S, for those of you who don't know it, this is the gun that is the top gun on the following tanks:
Spoiler

and a choice or mid-gun on these:

Spoiler

While this gun has amazing alpha on tier VII and still very nice alpha on tier VIII the rest of the gun is bad. And while I think that the accuracy and gun handling being bad is fine, and a choice. The fact that this gun has quite bad pen, (relatively speaking) on 175 kinda ruins it. Because: you don't have the accuracy to shoot at weakspots, and you don't have the pen to deal damage otherwise. 

 

Right now I want to focus on the IS/KV-3. While the 390 alpha is nice for a tier VII Heavy, the fact that they have the worst pen on any tier VII heavy topgun (except for the BP, which NEEDS a change very badly, but that is an entirely different topic) at 175 kinda ruins it. Heck, they struggle to pen most tier VII heavies, (exept for the Tiger I, but yeah, it's a Tiger) and can't even pen the front of an O-Ni without spamming prem. (oke, to be fair they can, but have only about 30% chance or less in normal combat situations, and that is when the O-Ni is not angling AT ALL) but, what do I propose to buff? Well, buff the penetration on the D-25T to 192, this way it has a pen that is more like the rest of the heavies and that can actually make the tank more usefull when not stomping poor tier V's. Besides that just leave everything the same, I mean exept for the poor pen this is a good gun.

 

For the D-25S aka the TD variant of the gun:

While 192 is good for a tier VII heavy, for a TD it might be on the low side so something like 202 is a bit more appropriate.

 

Keep in mind that this is about the D-25T(/S) and not the D-2-5T(/S) the last one is fine for tier VI and as a mid gun for tier VII.

Let me know what you think about it.

 

It's called a trade-off. You get high alpha for your tier in exchange for every other stat on  the gun being crap. If you want high penetration, play a German TD.

KillingJoker #11 Posted 12 November 2017 - 07:01 PM

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Isnt the 'S' Version of the 122mm a mod for the tank destroyers SU152 and ISU 122S? 

 

than gun is great, amazing DPM... the reload times can go down to 6 seconds...

 

about the regular 122, D 25-T, its also a reliable gun, its soviet, the bigger the number, the more accurate is, its all a matter of fully aim factor...

it will allways hit the desirable target when fully aimed, its a bullsh!t gun, cappable of doing the most hillarious accurate shots and sometimes if you not fully aim

is cappable of missing point blank shots where the shell falls into the ground 2 meters before reach the enemy.... like the gun didnt punched it with enough velocity....

 

about the 175mm being short for current game, its a bit relative... that gun works better as a surprise attack , you should seek a support role and use the gun

to make the hit points of enemies vanish quite fast when they are focus on other tanks...

 

and if your top tier... well that gun is a massive destruction weapon in tier V and VI environments.



KleinerTiger #12 Posted 12 November 2017 - 07:09 PM

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I totally agree with OP, Stronk Soviet gun should be stronkest gun in game!

Just havink by far the best alpha is not enough, it also must have best penetraziia! 225mm Minimum, for glory of the motherland!

And improve gun handling while we are about it, so Father Stalin can be proud!


Edited by KleinerTiger, 12 November 2017 - 07:12 PM.


SGT_Sprocket22 #13 Posted 03 December 2017 - 09:45 PM

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View PostKleinerTiger, on 12 November 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

I totally agree with OP, Stronk Soviet gun should be stronkest gun in game!

Just havink by far the best alpha is not enough, it also must have best penetraziia! 225mm Minimum, for glory of the motherland!

And improve gun handling while we are about it, so Father Stalin can be proud!

 

​As if they didn't already have enough advantages. Y'know what I mean, the fact that Soviet heavy tanks are often somehow mysteriously faster than their peers despite being slightly heavier on average with similar horse power. Or the fact that shooting into the side of these tanks can often prove ineffective when shots that should pen actually bounce off. And that big 122mm guns appear on some Soviet tanks that would realistically make firing the gun impossible (because how do you fit such a massive gun into such a tiny turret and have crew inside it as well). And then they have the nerve to complain about why a Soviet tanks' weakness hasn't been buffed yet.    

Comrade_Renamon #14 Posted 03 December 2017 - 10:05 PM

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The gun in general is fine on T7 on the right platform, those are the IS/IS-2/IS-2B but an absolutely awful gun on the KV-3 (It either needs a gun handling/RoF buff or heck if the 107 would be buffed up would do well enough). If you don't like the 122mm than you can at least use a good enough 100mm gun on the IS.

The KV-3, BP and M4 45 could use a look at (who knows, maybe they will up-gun the BP like the caravan next year).

 

 

 

View PostChopin, on 12 November 2017 - 02:05 AM, said:

If you have problems with pen, you can always load 250 mm premium HEAT. :trollface: It has more pen than tiger`s premium apcr round, which is only 237 IIRC. 

on d25t you get 75 mm increase, on german only 30something.

 I think tier 7 heavies are quite balanced, there are only two exceptions: t29 might be too good, and black prince is totally underpowered.

Try playing t-25/2 though :trollface: , you will reevaluate your views about d25t being bad...

 

Only the Chinese variant gets 250mm heat, Soviet has to make due with 217mm APCR. 

 

View PostSGT_Sprocket22, on 03 December 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

 And that big 122mm guns appear on some Soviet tanks that would realistically make firing the gun impossible (because how do you fit such a massive gun into such a tiny turret and have crew inside it as well). And then they have the nerve to complain about why a Soviet tanks' weakness hasn't been buffed yet.    

 

 A lot of tanks couldn't fit a lot of the guns they are using (long 88 on the Tiger I) so that is kind of a moot point to bring up.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Comrade_Renamon, 03 December 2017 - 10:11 PM.


Lord_Edge #15 Posted 03 December 2017 - 11:52 PM

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It's also the gun used on the KV-122, but it's excusable to forget that as hardly anyone (but me) was stupid enough to buy one :P

SGT_Sprocket22 #16 Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:10 AM

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View PostComrade_Renamon, on 03 December 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

The gun in general is fine on T7 on the right platform, those are the IS/IS-2/IS-2B but an absolutely awful gun on the KV-3 (It either needs a gun handling/RoF buff or heck if the 107 would be buffed up would do well enough). If you don't like the 122mm than you can at least use a good enough 100mm gun on the IS.

The KV-3, BP and M4 45 could use a look at (who knows, maybe they will up-gun the BP like the caravan next year).

 

 

 

 

Only the Chinese variant gets 250mm heat, Soviet has to make due with 217mm APCR. 

 

 

 A lot of tanks couldn't fit a lot of the guns they are using (long 88 on the Tiger I) so that is kind of a moot point to bring up.

 

 

 

 

 

​But the long 88 isn't a massive gun in a tiny turret is it? For the Russians, its like shoving the end of a lamp post into a teacup whereas the long 88 is more like a broom handle. You see what I mean? 

Excavatus #17 Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:10 AM

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The first 2nd MOE for me is the IS.. and the second one is SU-152(which I use the topgun.. 390 alpha with 6 seconds reload is just insane)

I said this, because I am just a complete average player who struggles in the high tiers..

So no.. for me.. buffing those guns would be an utter mistake..

and givin 220 pen to the SU-152??? for regular AP..

then the APCR would be just fire and forget..

 



anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #18 Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:42 AM

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Is 3x overmatch (vs the roofs/tops of most tanks) not enough?

Even the most heavily armoured tanks have weak roofs/tops.

Many of them have only 40mm of roof armour.

Aim for those area's.

You can even pen with many HE shells because of the overmatch mechanics.

 

Soviet 122mm magic.



Igor_BL #19 Posted 04 December 2017 - 11:00 AM

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View PostSpek_en_Bonen, on 04 December 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

Is 3x overmatch (vs the roofs/tops of most tanks) not enough?

Even the most heavily armoured tanks have weak roofs/tops.

Many of them have only 40mm of roof armour.

Aim for those area's.

You can even pen with many HE shells because of the overmatch mechanics.

 

Soviet 122mm magic.

 

HE shells cant overmatch.

another "beta tester".

Comrade_Renamon #20 Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

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View PostSGT_Sprocket22, on 03 December 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

 

​But the long 88 isn't a massive gun in a tiny turret is it? For the Russians, its like shoving the end of a lamp post into a teacup whereas the long 88 is more like a broom handle. You see what I mean? 

 

I somehow doubt the 122mm in the T-34-3 would fit without them being able to depress the gun at all either. But I assume here you are speaking about the T-44 or otherwise could you bring an example? Cannot recall all the 122mm gun using tanks with small turrets.




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