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Lemming rush "Gold spam situation" video


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Zoltan1251 #1 Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:17 PM

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https://www.youtube....h?v=IIT7mYyYqHc

So i watched Lemming rush´s video and.... i think he misses the point of the game. 

Lets sum it up: He thinks gold spam is caused by inaccuracy so people change to gold to pen even if they dont hit. He says that its a problem that there are inaccurate tanks in WOT (like shown T-54, doesnt matter it has different role in the game). He thinks RNG should be decreased. (dont bash me if i oversimplified)

 

Ok, fair enough. Let say we change everything in the way he wants.

 

After change we have almost dead accurate tanks making it impossible for slow tanks to even poke over the ridge line as they get sniped right away. Fast tanks starts to be preferred as they are able to move around battlefield. Decreased RNG will hit hard and game changes from tactical game into Counter Strike with fast moves fast aims and fast snipes. Decreased RNG will also mean that "magical" plays will become insanely rare as you would be able to calculate perfectly that your shot do enough damage, enemy cant hit you with enough dmg to kill you and you are sure that you hit perfectly, so there would be no need for tactical approach using camo or being careful. (again simplifying)

End result would be that gold spammers will still use gold, why would they stop, but great reflex players might be able to go above 80% win rate and bad players would go below 20% as they wont be able to get lucky so much. Ending in players leaving.

 

This is my pitch. There is insane number of players that think it would do this game good but i really dont think so... I think RNG is making the game unique and play into whole "tactical" side of things. Game like this is very rare and this is the reason, otherwise its another shooter where reflex matters more than brains.



pathed91 #2 Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:48 PM

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I thought the "mitigate rng by shooting gold" argument was about preventing low pen rolls if you only have about 50/50 change to do damage with AP.

 

Funnily enough, if Lemming rush had been shooting heat he would still mostly have bounced. He wasn't accurate enough as he said to reliably hit the weak spot, and the ufp and turret would still be too thick for heat to pen anyways.

 

WG could fix the accuracy thing by increasing the spread within the aiming circle and buff the dispersion on all tanks. That way guns would be accurate enough to hit weak spots at 400m but miss if you snapshot.



Pansenmann #3 Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:00 PM

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using "gold" ammo is not always the right thing to do,

but on most occasions you get away with it :)

 

that bein said, there are some tanks that more or less rely

on liberate use of premium ammo - at least when I drive them :child:

 

 

PS: can we at least use one gold ammo thread and not 15?
 



Tipperty #4 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:40 AM

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As lemminrush is a self proclaimed gold spammer, pretty much a win win for him if RnG is reduced.

 

The only problem I have with RnG is a roll on penetration or short ranged fully aimed shots, you know the ones that dig themselves into the ridge 10 meters from your tank.

 

But I can see the point in mitigating RnG with premium ammo. Lets say I am in a FV4202 and I am facing a VK 100.01 P. I have 226 pen, his weakspot is his cupolla with 220 armour. I have a 50/50 to pen him and I need to pen him 7-8 times to kill him depending on rolls, with normal AP. It could take me 10-12 shots or more or I load premium and reduce this number.  With RnG on accuracy and RnG on pen, premium ammo negates at least one of these problems by a significant margin.



Homer_J #5 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:57 AM

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View PostZoltan1251, on 14 November 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:


Lets sum it up: He thinks gold spam is caused by inaccuracy so people change to gold to pen even if they dont hit. 

 

I guess he forgets the 0.8.6 dispersion changes which turned the most derpy guns into snipers.



Gkirmathal #6 Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:14 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 14 November 2017 - 11:57 PM, said:

 

I guess he forgets the 0.8.6 dispersion changes which turned the most derpy guns into snipers.

 

That's what you get if A game engine only uses ONE dispersion variable for all shot calculations....

 

On topic, I think he has a valid point and this was addressed in 0.8.6. but due to the BigWorld engine limitations derps became snipers...I guess the engine would have had evolved from then tiull now to mitigate this and allow multiple dispersion variables to simulate multiple gun types.


Edited by Gkirmathal, 15 November 2017 - 01:16 AM.


Tipperty #7 Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:23 AM

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View PostGkirmathal, on 15 November 2017 - 12:14 AM, said:

 

That's what you get if A game engine only uses ONE dispersion variable for all shot calculations....

 

On topic, I think he has a valid point and this was addressed in 0.8.6. but due to the BigWorld engine limitations derps became snipers...I guess the engine would have had evolved from then tiull now to mitigate this and allow multiple dispersion variables to simulate multiple gun types.

 

Well they could change RnG at ranges, 300+ meters 25% 200+ 20% and 100 15% 

Tomotorqemada #8 Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:29 AM

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View PostZoltan1251, on 14 November 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

https://www.youtube....h?v=IIT7mYyYqHc

So i watched Lemming rush´s video and.... i think he misses the point of the game. 

Lets sum it up: He thinks gold spam is caused by inaccuracy so people change to gold to pen even if they dont hit. He says that its a problem that there are inaccurate tanks in WOT (like shown T-54, doesnt matter it has different role in the game). He thinks RNG should be decreased. (dont bash me if i oversimplified)

 

Ok, fair enough. Let say we change everything in the way he wants.

 

After change we have almost dead accurate tanks making it impossible for slow tanks to even poke over the ridge line as they get sniped right away. Fast tanks starts to be preferred as they are able to move around battlefield. Decreased RNG will hit hard and game changes from tactical game into Counter Strike with fast moves fast aims and fast snipes. Decreased RNG will also mean that "magical" plays will become insanely rare as you would be able to calculate perfectly that your shot do enough damage, enemy cant hit you with enough dmg to kill you and you are sure that you hit perfectly, so there would be no need for tactical approach using camo or being careful. (again simplifying)

End result would be that gold spammers will still use gold, why would they stop, but great reflex players might be able to go above 80% win rate and bad players would go below 20% as they wont be able to get lucky so much. Ending in players leaving.

 

This is my pitch. There is insane number of players that think it would do this game good but i really dont think so... I think RNG is making the game unique and play into whole "tactical" side of things. Game like this is very rare and this is the reason, otherwise its another shooter where reflex matters more than brains.

 

Well, I sure do have a problem with accuracy of my strvs1 gun. Its the same as of the is7, that cant hit a broad side of a mountain (at least of the one in nebelburg). In some 300 m the dispersion is the size of thу target. And that is supposed to be a superprecise tdsniper, that basically survives till spotted
I mean - I wouldnot neglect the gunacc problem )

 


Edited by Tomotorqemada, 15 November 2017 - 01:30 AM.


brumbarr #9 Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:33 AM

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yeah, I dont agree with him either, the accurcay right now is in the right ballpark, it could use some changing but doesnt need a massve rework, that would maek the game crappy and cause unforseen issues that could break the game.

Also, pls, he should be happy he even penned, he is shooting with the lowest pen tier9 med tank at a weakspot of a tier10 heavy tank from 400m. If that wasa reliable hit, wtf would be the point of pen or armor? 



AngelofAwe #10 Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:34 AM

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Always said that if I could choose then there would be NO RNG on penetration rolls and max 10-15% on damage/dispersion.

That being said the developers stated quite literally that the large amount of RNG is there for the sake of bad players in order to give them a chance against good players.
I can't remember the quote word for word but that's what skill4ltu said that the developers told him when he brought up the matter.

RNG exists so that a bad player will hit and pen a shot that should never have gone through and so that a good player will miss and fail to pen a shot that should have dealt damage.
It's to give more "joy" and a fighting chance once in a blue moon to the terrible player by pure chance in a fight he could never have won through own skill.

Of course I can understand their reasoning. Most players are not great and it's no fun to get your teeth kicked out every time you meet a better player but I still hate it sometimes with the frustration brought.

On the matter of gold ammo I think Overlord prime explained it much better on the topic of mitigating penetration RNG on his stream but not sure if there are any clips of that.

Edit: It does but only a small segment of it.
https://clips.twitch...reMelonPraiseIt

The curves are examples of standard pen (black curve from min to max roll) and the gold one is prem ammo min to max roll.
The black/red/blue lines are example of target armor thickness and the part of the curve beyond that thickness is your chance of scoring a penetrating hit.
You can pen those armors with standard but using the gold mitigates the RNG pen roll. 

Edited by AngelofAwe, 15 November 2017 - 01:44 AM.


Homer_J #11 Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:33 AM

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View PostGkirmathal, on 15 November 2017 - 12:14 AM, said:

 

That's what you get if A game engine only uses ONE dispersion variable for all shot calculations....

 

On topic, I think he has a valid point and this was addressed in 0.8.6. but due to the BigWorld engine limitations derps became snipers...I guess the engine would have had evolved from then tiull now to mitigate this and allow multiple dispersion variables to simulate multiple gun types.

Different accuracy figures should do that.  The problem with the 0.8.6 shot distribution was that they put too many too near the middle.  They since reworked it so less go to the middle and the accuracy stat has some meaning.

 

View PostTipperty, on 15 November 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

 

Well they could change RnG at ranges, 300+ meters 25% 200+ 20% and 100 15% 

Accuracy doesn't work on +/-% it works on shots landing within your dispersion circle with a slight bias towards centre.  The spread gets wider with distance, starting at 0 at your gun base, passing through whatever your accuracy stat is at 100m, twice that at 200m and so on.


Edited by Homer_J, 15 November 2017 - 02:33 AM.


Tipperty #12 Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:45 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 15 November 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

Accuracy doesn't work on +/-% it works on shots landing within your dispersion circle with a slight bias towards centre.  The spread gets wider with distance, starting at 0 at your gun base, passing through whatever your accuracy stat is at 100m, twice that at 200m and so on.

 

I know how accuracy works, I was talking in general.

 

So 25% at 300 meters on pen, this would also include the normal pen drop off at distance with a higher chance of the shot going to the outside of the dispersion even when fully aimed.

 

20% at 200 meters on pen, this would also include the normal pen drop off at distance with a higher chance of the shot going to the middle of the dispersion even when fully aimed.

 

15% at 100 meters on pen, this would also include the normal pen drop off at distance with a higher chance of the shot staying in the center of the dispersion when fully aimed.

 

I was just being lazy with my my post description, hope this explains more.



Homer_J #13 Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:51 AM

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View PostTipperty, on 15 November 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

 

 

I was just being lazy with my my post description, hope this explains more.

Yes, you have come up with a needlessly complicated system to solve a problem which doesn't exist.

 

We have penetration dropoff, we have an accuracy system which increases the actual spread of your shot with distance, we don't need some laser laser shotgun system.



Tipperty #14 Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:24 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 15 November 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

Yes, you have come up with a needlessly complicated system to solve a problem which doesn't exist.

 

We have penetration dropoff, we have an accuracy system which increases the actual spread of your shot with distance, we don't need some laser laser shotgun system.

 

 

No, I was bringing an answer to the OP original question about changes to RnG.

 

See the reason WG changed the map play to corridor maps, was because people were sitting back camping and sniping. Then they added an aim nerf, because meds and lights were sitting at the end of these corridors and pumping premium ammo into people moving up the corridors.

 

So my suggested RnG changes by promoting close combat game play and hopefully a system that reduces the need to fire premium, because if you are less likely to get screwed over by RnG pen, then people are hopefully less likely to load premium. Plus the fact that it promotes more accuracy at close range. Meaning the people that are actually getting stuck into the fighting aren't getting punished with the same RnG as the snipers sitting back farming damage.

 

No system will stop the people that enter the battle and instantly hit their 2 key, unless WG remove premium ammo, but we all know that is never going to happen. So a system that hopefully lessens the reason to fire premium is what is needed. Is the system I suggested perfect, no it isn't, but it is called adding to the suggestion thread and hopefully people discuss it, add suggestions or modify it. Or perhaps coming up with a better way, but you know people don't always get that the forums are for discussions and would rather dismiss every ones suggestions. I don't know why, maybe they have just spent too much time on the forums and have become too cynical and find it better to just dismiss any persons ideas without adding to anything. I guess they feel better about themselves doing so.



Jam_in_a_Tank #15 Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:06 AM

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Gold spam, gold shells, whatever..

I call 'em AP, APCR, HEAT, HE etc. whatever fits the given situation i choose, simple, not all ammo is the same and not every ammo fits every situation, more penetration is not always the main reason to choose one type of shell over another, many people really understand it.. 

 

Finishing the battle -80.000 tho is not something i am looking for, thus apart from my first point i keep in mind that the first choice of ammo fired mostly is the cheapest, if it fits i continue spamming the cheapest ammo, if not then change and story goes on.. :harp:

 

what i love most is HE, cheapest, more dmg, more critical, situational tho... :unsure:


Edited by Jam_in_a_Tank, 15 November 2017 - 06:12 AM.


another_Ghost_Shell #16 Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:29 AM

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I dont notice any difference when I am playing the Leopard 1 or the IS7, acc just feels the same, pretty retarded if you ask me. Its also extremly rediculous how easily Type5 and Mauses can shoot on the move.. Yes they are slow but still wtf. A type 5 heavy is more likely to hit its target from 300 meters on the move then my STB1 I can tell you that. cancer mechanic.


Edited by another_Ghost_Shell, 15 November 2017 - 09:29 AM.


Noo_Noo #17 Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:45 AM

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I take on board many peoples comments above but when I saw the video I was actually alarmed by how inaccurate the shots actually were. The number that simply flew way off target was quite surprising to say the least. I can accept some deviation and of course at that range the small weak spot should be hard to hit but the sheer number of shots that missed the tank completely did surprise me. 

I think I agree with what he is saying in principle. - premium ammo to reduce RNG on accuracy and pen rolls. There's also the side argument of game balance. It's particularly interesting given the current whine threads on premium ammo and of course the premium ammo challenge. i think that kind of proves that while premium ammo helps a little the RNG in the game still punishes you a little. However at the end of the day there's no substitute for good positioning and game awareness. 

CmdRatScabies #18 Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:56 AM

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View PostZoltan1251, on 14 November 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

This is my pitch. There is insane number of players that think it would do this game good but i really dont think so... I think RNG is making the game unique and play into whole "tactical" side of things. Game like this is very rare and this is the reason, otherwise its another shooter where reflex matters more than brains.

 

Agree with that.  Seems to be a natural progression for many better players to want less RNG but maybe that's just frustration at all those missed opportunities.  Only question for me is how much RNG is the "right" amount and I don't think it's too far off at the moment - frustrating and addictive though it is.

Havenless #19 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:08 PM

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Two things he didn't bring up.

 

1. Shooting gold means you spend less time aiming which means you're slightly less vulnerable to arty bots sh*tting on you. It doesn't give a shield against arty, but it helps a little.

 

2. Many premium rounds(most notably APCR) have better shell speed. The aiming mechanics of the game make it unpractical to lead shots with guns that have bad shell speed because the game "chips" such shells and assumes you want to shoot the end of the map which in turn means your shell ends up landing higher than you were aiming for.



OreH75 #20 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:09 PM

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Jingles made a video about gold ammo as well, I tend to agree with him. 






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