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How to lose - demonstrated on Erlenberg assault


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spuriousmonkey #1 Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:10 PM

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I am using Erlenberg assault as an example but I have been seeing this kind of behaviour more and more on maps.

 

When defending on Erlenberg it is fine to all go on one side. Preferably the right side of the map. But what is happening lately, consistently is that people are only occupying the red positions. Right from the start map control over 75% of the map is given away. It used to be that the green positions were taken as well, and a push would follow to along the green line to clean the right side of the map.

 

So you would only have to defend the river and have some mobility.

 

But not any longer. The right top corner is apparently where it is at, and when this happens it is always a loss. Which is not surprising since there is no map control, and no possibility to maneuver at all.

 

Some variation on this them can be seen on other maps as well, and it is something that didn't used to happen to this extreme.

 

Am I paranoid or has anyone else noticed this as well?



Erwin_Von_Braun #2 Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:15 PM

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Indeed, seen this map half a dozen times today and that dispersion of players has happened every time.

It's becoming almost as tedious as the Camp-Fest that is Fishermans Bay.



malachi6 #3 Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:25 PM

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Given the majority of players that play like that, do not use the forums.  I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve.

spuriousmonkey #4 Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:35 PM

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View Postmalachi6, on 18 November 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

Given the majority of players that play like that, do not use the forums.  I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve.

 

I am just wondering if there has been a switch in map meta on a general level.

 

I don't hope to educate players. That is not possible.


Edited by spuriousmonkey, 18 November 2017 - 05:35 PM.


Bitter_Kipper #5 Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:39 PM

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No you are not being paranoid played it 3 times today and tents were pitched camp fires fired up.

 

Of course crying started immediately, when the lack of spotting and places to go resulted in full scale rolf stomps. 

 

Attacking is so much simpler as you have the majority on the map to attack from. Remember when attacking up the middle was regarded as stupid in the extreme. Now it is a calculated risk.



Codename_Jelly #6 Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:50 PM

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Sorry but that is how you win.

brumbarr #7 Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:51 PM

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Its very interesting, I was goign to write a thread about it,  its basicly the meta reacting to  itself. 

First , the defending team used to go both sides evenly or even more on 1 2 line

=>people slowly started noticing they got slaughtered on 1 2 line due to superior positions of the assaulting team

=> the defenders start going  9  0 line and pushing the enemys out of that line, they then take that side and river positions and the assaultign team has no chance

=>the attackign team notices this and they start sending more people to 9 0 line, now the defenders cant push out anymore and they ahve no mapcontrol, they often send only a few tanks 1 2 line since there are no defenders there anyway.

 

Its the meta  sloly changing and  its switching in different bases favour. We might see a countermeta soon, where the defenders now start sending way more tanks 1 2 line and since the attackers have no forces there, take control of that.

 



LR130 #8 Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:08 PM

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interesting what brumbarr says about change in meta. we can actually see different plays on same old maps in the future!

Tommy_Atkins_Teapot #9 Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:32 PM

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Am I paranoid or has anyone else noticed this as well?

Dear spurious,

Please keep taking your meds ;)

Regards

Tommy.

 



Tidal_Force #10 Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:33 PM

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View PostLR130, on 18 November 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

interesting what brumbarr says about change in meta. we can actually see different plays on same old maps in the future!

 

Don't hold your breath. Average random player's brain appears to work on roughly 3 year delay. For example, only now they start realising that TX MT's were dethroned.

Edited by Tidal_Force, 18 November 2017 - 07:34 PM.


Codename_Jelly #11 Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:39 PM

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2 or 3 tanks on A8/9 to shoot what is spotted by someone just across from the bridge spotting and they wont risk coming out then the rest can deal with those coming up the 9/0 line and you just need someone able to have view range into the city to see them there.

Bennie182 #12 Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:39 PM

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Not playing those modes, as the chance to win is a lot of times smaller, as far as my experience goes. Played some platoon battles yesterday with him as platoon commander. I ended up getting this map several times and had to attack. The win was constantly given away. Standard mode gives at least equal chances when it comes to game objectives.

spuriousmonkey #13 Posted 19 November 2017 - 11:54 AM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 18 November 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Its very interesting, I was goign to write a thread about it,  its basicly the meta reacting to  itself. 

First , the defending team used to go both sides evenly or even more on 1 2 line

=>people slowly started noticing they got slaughtered on 1 2 line due to superior positions of the assaulting team

=> the defenders start going  9  0 line and pushing the enemys out of that line, they then take that side and river positions and the assaultign team has no chance

=>the attackign team notices this and they start sending more people to 9 0 line, now the defenders cant push out anymore and they ahve no mapcontrol, they often send only a few tanks 1 2 line since there are no defenders there anyway.

 

Its the meta  sloly changing and  its switching in different bases favour. We might see a countermeta soon, where the defenders now start sending way more tanks 1 2 line and since the attackers have no forces there, take control of that.

 

 

It makes me wonder though what a winning meta would look like for the defending team. 

 

The attacking team often also takes up a center position (next to river in center of map) from the start of the game, or at least one scout or fast medium tank. In the old days this would have been suicide, but all defenders are often so concentrated on digging in that it has become a viable tactic.



CmdRatScabies #14 Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:02 PM

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View Postspuriousmonkey, on 19 November 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

It makes me wonder though what a winning meta would look like for the defending team.

 

The attacking team often also takes up a center position (next to river in center of map) from the start of the game, or at least one scout or fast medium tank. In the old days this would have been suicide, but all defenders are often so concentrated on digging in that it has become a viable tactic.

 

My last team had the answer.  All cross the river and take up the West hill area!.  I mean how could that fail? Especially if you just camp there & don't push at all while the Attackers all go East.

Yaccay #15 Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:33 PM

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Exactly.

That is why I do not need XVM to find out wether we will lose or not.

When I see this or similar things, I know there is no hope.

(And that is why we need a skill based MM .... to avoid one team is being vastly underskilled ... and to avoid vastl yunbalanced games. .... but this is only my opinion...)



Enforcer1975 #16 Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:34 PM

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Many players say never cross the river....but imo that's wrong. A good defense on castle which is more often than not left open can be used to flank the enemy provided you have enough tanks to repel the attackers and have a high enough hp pool to mount a counterattack yourself but only if the east flank is in a stalemate which it is most of the time.

You mean gameplay like this right?

http://wotreplays.eu/site/3947848#stats



Yaccay #17 Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:40 PM

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And one more thing:

I got very disoppointed everytime I see this.

... is there any meaning of games like this?

 

 



CmdRatScabies #18 Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:41 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 19 November 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

Many players say never cross the river....but imo that's wrong. A good defense on castle which is more often than not left open can be used to flank the enemy provided you have enough tanks to repel the attackers and have a high enough hp pool to mount a counterattack yourself but only if the east flank is in a stalemate which it is most of the time.

You mean gameplay like this right?

http://wotreplays.eu/site/3947848#stats

 

Only time I see that work is when the defenders have good players and the attackers don't.  Then it's not difficult to push West and hold East for a quick easy win.

omgdontkillme #19 Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:02 PM

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View PostCodename_Jelly, on 18 November 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

Sorry but that is how you win.

 

According to my experience its 99.99% way to lose.

gunslingerXXX #20 Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:13 PM

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Unselected the assult and encounter modes today because I was getting sick of the amount of times I had to play Erlenberg with campy teams.




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