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Randomly generated maps, a new feature.


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japtank #1 Posted 20 November 2017 - 03:57 PM

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We have encounter, we have assault, we now have Grand Battles, what about random maps?

Random maps exist in several games, I remember at least Anarchy Online, there must be others.

 

Admittedly, it's easier to assemble seamless blocks in a sci-fi dungeon than to create a seamless countryside random map, but the challenge is worth rising to IMHO.

Given a few parameters (% of buildings, water, mountains, hills, dips, you name it) a generator should be able to create a mesh textured on the fly.

 

Of course, that kind of groundbreaking technology doesn't come without problems, but that's what progress is made of, isn't it?

There are some solutions I can think of to go around the most obvious difficulties, like map weight, but this thread is not about feasability, everything can be done for a wealthy company who can hire talented engineers (having designed maps myself for other games I understand the complexity of it) it's only about whether this would be desirable or not.

 

The obvious advantage is clearly the novelty, the surprize effect, the ability to immediately take advantage of obstacles to find the possible routes.

The most obvious disadvantage is the imbalance, because it would of course be imbalanced, even after years of multiple revamps maps are still imba, which indeed brings this question: if we have to play on imbalanced maps, why not at least make it fun!

 

There's something else I foresee: fear would most certainly cause an uproar.

Fear from experienced players who wouldn't want to compromise hard earned stats (*sigh*) on uncharted territory.

Fear from unexperienced players who could see tanks attacking them from unsuspected directions and freaking out from the start of the battle.

And probably fear from WG managers who would probably find it risky to invest resources (and this wouldn't be as cheap as revamping maps which is trivial in comparison) on a system that would maybe appeal to enough players.

 

So guys, let's take for granted that this is technically possible, what say you?



OreH75 #2 Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:03 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 20 November 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Fear from experienced players who wouldn't want to compromise hard earned stats (*sigh*) on uncharted territory.

 

So guys, let's take for granted that this is technically possible, what say you?

"Experienced" players would still do better then "inexperienced" players because they lack any (mini)map awareness at all, new map or old map..so I wouldn't mind.

 

edit: and the two words "stats (*sigh*)" make this original idea nothing else then a rant on better players..nice try 3/10. 


Edited by OreH75, 20 November 2017 - 04:07 PM.


cragarion #3 Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:07 PM

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YES YES PLEASE cant wait for the ones where all the bushes rocks and hummocks are one side of the map and the other side is perfectly clear and flat,

as long as course i get the side with all the cover.

 

That's the problem with random stuff its random.



SuedKAT #4 Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:35 PM

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Well considering both the pace new maps gets introduced and "reworked" as well as the quality of them I don't think it can be much worse to have a random map built from a set template and parameters, so yeah why not, it's not like we need to consider balance or anything anyhow, WG certainly don't.

Phobos4321 #5 Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:07 PM

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where do you get the random maps ?  basically where balancing doesnt matters

 

but for wot the terrain is an important part of the balancing  bing it offering opportunities for every class or being fair between both teams 

could some random map offer that ?

 

know your map, know your tank and use it for the best effect, having random maps would make that impossible

wouldnt you need pre made tiles ? complete map on the fly ?

how would you handle the replays  basically you would need to include all map data into the replay file

 

for d3 sure it work for wot i cant imagine that it could work

 



jack_timber #6 Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:14 PM

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Well it's different so yes a great idea.... Dunno how they would implement but that's down to 'others'.

Phobos4321 #7 Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:30 PM

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if you cant gurantee fairness its even a pretty shitty idea

Jigabachi #8 Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:49 PM

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You know WG. You know how our current maps look like. And you probably also know how this feature would turn out...

Long story short: The only variant I would support is a system of random "events" on maps:
Snow and debris blocking the banana corridor on Himmelsdorf. Or a different placement of the trains.
The river running dry on Erlenberg.
The river bursting its banks on Redshire.
A collapsed castle on Sacred Valley, allowing tanks to reach the hill with the bridge through the castle yard.
A different stone formation here.
More/less foliage there.

Just little things to make matches less boring.  

BicycleOfDeath #9 Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:50 PM

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Sounds completely doable and if done smartly can even be done with fairness. You can have rough base templates of maps and vary things like terrain elevation and amount of hard/soft cover within reasonable limits, and evenly on both sides. Sounds like a fun concept to me.

HassenderZerhacker #10 Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:03 PM

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View PostPhobos4321, on 20 November 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

if you cant gurantee fairness its even a pretty shitty idea

 

it's pretty easy to guarantee fairness in randomly generated maps

Aikl #11 Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:09 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 20 November 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

 

it's pretty easy to guarantee fairness in randomly generated maps

 

At least fair enough. Sand River Assault is horribly biased, but not too fuzzed because it's up to chance where I'll spawn. Trying for total fairness might just be what ends up killing the game in terms of map and tank design. Well, not that tank balancing has shown to be anywhere close to fair recently, but still.

 

As for randomly generated maps, it's interesting, but I bet most players are just gonna camp the base if they don't know where to go and what to do - which kind of kills it for those who'd rather move about. Resources spent on creating such a solution would be better spent on actually making and revamping maps on a regular basis.

It could potentially work better for single-tier matches; where going alone or with two-three other tanks is much less of a risk.


Edited by Aikl, 20 November 2017 - 07:10 PM.


Xandania #12 Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:10 PM

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I remember threads where random symmetrical placement of cover and camo was asked for some time ago...

Tomotorqemada #13 Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:40 PM

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I say this is a viable option. I'm just about to propose a revolutionary solution of problems with the old maps, but my solution does not add any new maps. My offer regarding randomizatioon had been not so rad before I read this, I was just offering to randomize the obstacle/greenery seed, but if there is a random map betatest around - sign me in

psychobear #14 Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:17 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 20 November 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

We have encounter, we have assault, we now have Grand Battles, what about random maps?

Random maps exist in several games, I remember at least Anarchy Online, there must be others.

 

Admittedly, it's easier to assemble seamless blocks in a sci-fi dungeon than to create a seamless countryside random map, but the challenge is worth rising to IMHO.

Given a few parameters (% of buildings, water, mountains, hills, dips, you name it) a generator should be able to create a mesh textured on the fly.

 

Of course, that kind of groundbreaking technology doesn't come without problems, but that's what progress is made of, isn't it?

There are some solutions I can think of to go around the most obvious difficulties, like map weight, but this thread is not about feasability, everything can be done for a wealthy company who can hire talented engineers (having designed maps myself for other games I understand the complexity of it) it's only about whether this would be desirable or not.

 

The obvious advantage is clearly the novelty, the surprize effect, the ability to immediately take advantage of obstacles to find the possible routes.

The most obvious disadvantage is the imbalance, because it would of course be imbalanced, even after years of multiple revamps maps are still imba, which indeed brings this question: if we have to play on imbalanced maps, why not at least make it fun!

 

There's something else I foresee: fear would most certainly cause an uproar.

Fear from experienced players who wouldn't want to compromise hard earned stats (*sigh*) on uncharted territory.

Fear from unexperienced players who could see tanks attacking them from unsuspected directions and freaking out from the start of the battle.

And probably fear from WG managers who would probably find it risky to invest resources (and this wouldn't be as cheap as revamping maps which is trivial in comparison) on a system that would maybe appeal to enough players.

 

So guys, let's take for granted that this is technically possible, what say you?

 



japtank #15 Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:18 PM

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View PostTomotorqemada, on 20 November 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

I say this is a viable option. I'm just about to propose a revolutionary solution of problems with the old maps, but my solution does not add any new maps. My offer regarding randomizatioon had been not so rad before I read this, I was just offering to randomize the obstacle/greenery seed, but if there is a random map betatest around - sign me in

 

Now that you talk about it, it sounds quite an 'economical' way of doing things, having 'base maps' where only obstacles, vegetation and elevation needs to be randomized.

NUKLEAR_SLUG #16 Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:36 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 20 November 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

 

Now that you talk about it, it sounds quite an 'economical' way of doing things, having 'base maps' where only obstacles, vegetation and elevation needs to be randomized.

 

Great idea, I can't wait to read the first forum thread from some donkey complaining that he keeps losing because WG are rigging all the bushes in his games..



Derethim #17 Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:08 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 20 November 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

We have encounter, we have assault, we now have Grand Battles, what about random maps?

Random maps exist in several games, I remember at least Anarchy Online, there must be others.

 

Admittedly, it's easier to assemble seamless blocks in a sci-fi dungeon than to create a seamless countryside random map, but the challenge is worth rising to IMHO.

Given a few parameters (% of buildings, water, mountains, hills, dips, you name it) a generator should be able to create a mesh textured on the fly.

 

Of course, that kind of groundbreaking technology doesn't come without problems, but that's what progress is made of, isn't it?

There are some solutions I can think of to go around the most obvious difficulties, like map weight, but this thread is not about feasability, everything can be done for a wealthy company who can hire talented engineers (having designed maps myself for other games I understand the complexity of it) it's only about whether this would be desirable or not.

 

The obvious advantage is clearly the novelty, the surprize effect, the ability to immediately take advantage of obstacles to find the possible routes.

The most obvious disadvantage is the imbalance, because it would of course be imbalanced, even after years of multiple revamps maps are still imba, which indeed brings this question: if we have to play on imbalanced maps, why not at least make it fun!

 

There's something else I foresee: fear would most certainly cause an uproar.

Fear from experienced players who wouldn't want to compromise hard earned stats (*sigh*) on uncharted territory.

Fear from unexperienced players who could see tanks attacking them from unsuspected directions and freaking out from the start of the battle.

And probably fear from WG managers who would probably find it risky to invest resources (and this wouldn't be as cheap as revamping maps which is trivial in comparison) on a system that would maybe appeal to enough players.

 

So guys, let's take for granted that this is technically possible, what say you?

It's a great idea imho.

The imbalance is easy to solve, man!

Just make the map generator make a half of the map and then copy it and turn it 180° and make the other half the same.

Randomly placed buildings, roads and rocks would do the trick with cover and the maps would have to be really big.

The only problem I see with this is the limitations of BW engine.



Pansenmann #18 Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:25 PM

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While I understand the intention of the OP to ask for procedurally generated maps,

I have to remind that this topic was discussed many times before and WG clearly stated that this is nothing they will work on.

 

 

PS: anyone playing nethack?


Edited by Pansenmann, 20 November 2017 - 09:25 PM.


250swb #19 Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:17 PM

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I think he's onto something, just imagine, a map that combined all the corridors into one map, or combined all the towns into one town map, or combined all the lakes into one big lake so we could drown ourselves at the stupidity of it all.

japtank #20 Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:20 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 20 November 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

 

Just make the map generator make a half of the map and then copy it and turn it 180° and make the other half the same.

 

Simple is always best, good point :)

 

About the engine, it only needs a mesh, it doesn't care about how that mesh is generated.






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