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"Good players always camp and snipe"


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AngelofAwe #1 Posted 21 November 2017 - 03:49 PM

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Hello forumites!

So I had this game earlier today and I realized this was probably the perfect example of why it may seem like a good player is just "camping and farming damage" at some times.
In reality it's probably (more often than not) that the good players see and understand things you do not as an average player, at least that is my theory for their lack of understanding.

As I in my mind had no choice but to camp in this example while my team were asking me to push I'd like to use this very clear example to explain the thinking and decision making behind it.

The game is a horrific defeat and not a good performance by me either, it just serves as the perfect example.

So here's the replay:
http://wotreplays.eu...0d589c2d5e2865c

As you can see I'm on Westfield in the Sheridan.
From the beginning I have 2 options. Go on the south flank or go fight against the HTs on the hill area.
The hill area is actually far more important and I'd like to go there. I would if I was in any MT or HT but the Sheridan with 3 arty is not really that suitable so this time I go on the south flank instead.
This was probably a mistake as my team will get destroyed at the hill and we lose the game because of it but I couldn't have known that. Maybe I could have made a difference there, maybe not.
As far as I could tell at the beginning of the game they may just rush their MTs down the south and win the game that way, it was one or the other.

Anyway I take the standard spotting location to see if any of them cross down to the bottom corner.
I have no support able to provide fire apart from the T49 so if there's anything more than 1 enemy coming and I go to the corner it's probably suicide, especially with 3 arty able to aim down there.

As the game develops I see that both their LTs are on the hill flank, however the Skoda is spotted where I expect him.
A skoda alone is not a problem for me, I'd kill him 1v1 and that's probably why the arty is trying to tell me to push forward.
However this is his limited perspective and or understanding. I "know" with 90% certainty that the Centurion 7/1 is there as well.
If I push across that open field down to the corner I KNOW that I will be spotted, clipped by the Skoda, shot by the centurion and perhaps the Udes/Skorpion if they are on mid like TDs often are.

I understand that I cannot push this even though I'd like to. If I do move forward I'm suicide scouting for no reason. All it will achieve is my death.
I try to explain this to the artillery but clearly he's unable to understand my reasoning.
He thinks the Skoda is alone because the Skoda is the only tank spotted. He doesn't understand that you have to consider what's not spotted as equally important as what is. 

If the Centurion 7/1 would be spotted anywhere but next to the Skoda I will instantly push, but as long as he's not spotted I have to assume that he's right there where I expect him.
All I can do in the meanwhile is take shots when I have an opportunity to bring down their health to a point where I am able to handle them.

Sheridan + T49 vs Skoda T50 + Centurion 7/1 at full health is an impossible battle. However if they're half hp then something can be done.
Therefore my only option is to sit here until I have a chance to fight them head-on.
Obviously I can't count on the random team mate in a T49 to support me either so I have to consider myself to be alone in the worst case.

The Centurion pushes and gets spotted where I had expected, confirming that if I had moved earlier I would have been dead.
We're able to bring his hp down sufficiently on his crossing that we can kill him, especially as the Skoda did not go with him. Now is the chance to push on him and we do, killing him.
The arty doesn't understand this either as you can probably read in the chat...

However the other flank has already lost and the game is over, I try to go back to base to perhaps be able to pick off some tanks and protect my allies but it's too late to do anything as they all melt.
I'm also becoming a little frustrated with getting crap from the artillery the entire time and my explanations having no effect, which is also why I make this topic.
Before you question and think somebody competent is just camping to farm damage, try to consider that maybe they are seeing and understanding things you do not.

Did I make mistakes this game?
Yes, mistakes are made every match. I should probably have gone on the other flank but that was a coin toss decision.
Did I make mistake in camping after I had invested into the south flank? I do not think so. Any other decision would just have thrown away my tank in 90% of cases.
Maybe it would have worked to yolo in 10% of cases but is it worth it to do something that works 1 time in 10? Risk management is also a thing and in my mind it was definitely not worth moving.
Not for me and not for the team.

Maybe this can explain some of the thought processes to some people. Or perhaps it can't, but I doubt it can do any harm. 

Edited by AngelofAwe, 21 November 2017 - 04:00 PM.


ExclamationMark #2 Posted 21 November 2017 - 03:52 PM

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View PostAngelofAwe, on 21 November 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

but I doubt it can do any harm. 

 

Sounds like you're new here.

AngelofAwe #3 Posted 21 November 2017 - 03:54 PM

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View PostExclamationMark, on 21 November 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

 

Sounds like you're new here.

 

"challenge accepted"?

eldrak #4 Posted 21 November 2017 - 03:57 PM

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Interesting to read your analysis and thought process.

 

Good post!

 

This map however is really hard to influence the outcome on if the other side loses fast. Topography makes relocation to support a falling flank near impossible, you go all in when you select where you go at the start of battle.



TungstenHitman #5 Posted 21 November 2017 - 03:58 PM

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What happened the replay?

commer #6 Posted 21 November 2017 - 03:58 PM

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It's a trap you evil prpl. You just want us to yolo so you can farm us from redline bush! I tried to be agressive the last time I met you in a pub game on Live Oaks in my Emil II (you were in your BC25AP). We both got crapdmg though you killed me. This one game is sample enough for me to extrapolate and know I should snipe in my highly innacurate heavy.

 

 

In all seriousness though - you won't convince people. Most players have 2 gears - being too agressive. Then they get burned and decide to change their gamestyle by being too passive. They alternate between the 2 with the most annoying being camping redline while doing 0 dmg for 7 minutes than yoloing 7 tanks in 1 tank and dying after doing 1 shot of dmg.



Ze_HOFF_fverhoef #7 Posted 21 November 2017 - 03:59 PM

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Don't try to reason with your team mates... wasted effort...

TungstenHitman #8 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:00 PM

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View PostZe_HOFF_fverhoef, on 21 November 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Don't try to reason with your team mates... wasted effort...

 

I find getting chatbanned is the best possible way to remove this option

AngelofAwe #9 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:01 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 21 November 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

What happened the replay?

 

fixed, forgot I have to use the direct link when it's a "secret" replay. Only saving all my ace games as public ones. 

alienslive #10 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:11 PM

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I often get team damage because I don't want to yolo die in a scout. But in a battle I can't write a wall of text.

 



tajj7 #11 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:15 PM

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View PostAngelofAwe, on 21 November 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

Before you question and think somebody competent is just camping to farm damage, try to consider that maybe they are seeing and understanding things you do not.

Did I make mistakes this game?
Yes, mistakes are made every match. I should probably have gone on the other flank but that was a coin toss decision.
Did I make mistake in camping after I had invested into the south flank? I do not think so. Any other decision would just have thrown away my tank in 90% of cases.
Maybe it would have worked to yolo in 10% of cases but is it worth it to do something that works 1 time in 10? Risk management is also a thing and in my mind it was definitely not worth moving.
Not for me and not for the team.

Maybe this can explain some of the thought processes to some people. Or perhaps it can't, but I doubt it can do any harm. 
 

 

I put this in another thread, but it is very much related to this. 

 

Watch the first game featured in this youtube video (it's about the first 7 minutes or so), have a think about the decisions Anfield makes during the game, why he makes them, why he goes certain places etc.

 

 

Then compare your thoughts on the gameplay with this comment that was left under the youtube video -

 

Posted Image

 

I think that comment gives a good insight into the average players perception of better players and how they clearly do not understand the decisions they make. 

 

What you say is 100% spot on, the most common examples of 'good players camping' are often good player refusing to needlessly yolo into a hopeless position or they have already fallen back from a falling flank, and these situations highlight a clear lack of awareness on the criticising player's part. 

 

 



TungstenHitman #12 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:20 PM

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Wow the AMX 13 105 really bossed that battle. Never mind, we use our experience of thousands of previous battles to make the best decision we feel at the time, sometimes it works really well, sometimes it goes horribly wrong, enemies don't behave the same and teammates don't behave the same every battle, this is the really attractive part of the game as much as we wish it otherwise lots of times.

There are only a few maps in this game and they break down into typically predictable tank class distributions but the battles never play out the same simply because there is just no knowing what players are going to do both good or bad. This is probably the reason the game is so re-playable after thousands and thousands of battles. It isn't an easy game and many have the attitude it's 1 vs 29, it can feel this way at times when teammates undermine your efforts by parking next to your light tank in a forward scout bush position or blocking a safe cover spot by driving their heavy tank up your backside or getting repeatedly splashed by your own arty while your circling and shooting a heavy tank or having 2 teammates run away leaving you to get wrecked in what was a 3vs1 easy kill situation or... you get the point.  :)



ApocalypseSquad #13 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:21 PM

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Nice post.  I'm rubbish but still have the same issues.  Example:  I was on Prokhorovka, South in a stock Type 61.  I went left up onto the slope to snipe the scouts surfing the central ridge, which I was doing with some success.  A Tiger (P) camped down on the road insisted that as a top tier med I should be pushing along it (you know, the one where all the TD's lie in wait). I ignored him, until eventually he shot me twice in the flank while insisting that the rest of the team report me.  Game essentially over at that point.  I had to move or be TK'd, and as soon as I did, guess what? - Killed (due to my now depleted HP) by an invisible TD.

 

My intention was to clear the scouts and then start to push, preferably on the other side of the road where I might have some cover, but our friendly heavy denied me that option.


 

I am sure a better player would have had a better plan, but I don't think I was behaving unreasonably, especially in that tank...



RandomBlank #14 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:56 PM

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View Posteldrak, on 21 November 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Interesting to read your analysis and thought process.

 

Good post!

 

This map however is really hard to influence the outcome on if the other side loses fast. Topography makes relocation to support a falling flank near impossible, you go all in when you select where you go at the start of battle.

 

 

If the other side loses fast and badly, it's pretty much impossible to win. But if the other side just holds (not necessarily wins) you can do a lot.

 

Recently had a very nice game in BC 12t on Westfield. Initially, I went mid, edge of town above the valley, to spot the other side and take shots at it. A Grille sat a short way behind me, so I was counting on his support (wrongly, but meh...) - it's risky because if an enemy choose to pick the same position I'm spotted and the enemies from the other side of the valley will make a short story of me - but if I have enough support to stop the enemy before they spot me I should be fine.

 

Well, I didn't have enough support, but at least I spotted and shot enough that the WZ that spotted me was left without immediate support on his side. So I rolled down the hill, shooting him, and won the 1 on 1.

 

At that point, the south was almost mopped up (1 arty left) and every camper moved towards the enemy cap. Surprise, enemy on the hills wasn't blind - while heavies continued duking it out, every med and TD rushed to defend.

 

It's damn hard to defend from a cliff edge though. Nothing has that much depression, and we were picking them out mercilessly as they'd poke or try to aim at us.

 

Took some effort to re-conquer the hills (as the allies on top finally fell) but by that time we had enough advantage to pull it off.

 

 

 



commer #15 Posted 21 November 2017 - 05:08 PM

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View PostRandomBlank, on 21 November 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

 

 

If the other side loses fast and badly, it's pretty much impossible to win. But if the other side just holds (not necessarily wins) you can do a lot.

 

Recently had a very nice game in BC 12t on Westfield. Initially, I went mid, edge of town above the valley, to spot the other side and take shots at it. A Grille sat a short way behind me, so I was counting on his support (wrongly, but meh...) - it's risky because if an enemy choose to pick the same position I'm spotted and the enemies from the other side of the valley will make a short story of me - but if I have enough support to stop the enemy before they spot me I should be fine.

 

Well, I didn't have enough support, but at least I spotted and shot enough that the WZ that spotted me was left without immediate support on his side. So I rolled down the hill, shooting him, and won the 1 on 1.

 

At that point, the south was almost mopped up (1 arty left) and every camper moved towards the enemy cap. Surprise, enemy on the hills wasn't blind - while heavies continued duking it out, every med and TD rushed to defend.

 

It's damn hard to defend from a cliff edge though. Nothing has that much depression, and we were picking them out mercilessly as they'd poke or try to aim at us.

 

Took some effort to re-conquer the hills (as the allies on top finally fell) but by that time we had enough advantage to pull it off.

 

 

 

 

Naaah it's still possible if they have to cross an easily defensible area. I've seen many matches that looked like sure wins and then the enemy lemming train crashed against a strong position

AvengerOrion #16 Posted 21 November 2017 - 05:14 PM

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Block Quote

 Good players always camp and snipe

 

Well, that explains why I don't think I'm good at this game.

Lack of patience and fear of boredom are a bad combo to stay alive.:sceptic:

 



fwhaatpiraat #17 Posted 21 November 2017 - 05:49 PM

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Tip: go watch that replay, it is really exciting :trollface:

 

It's nice that you show your thought processes during the battle. Average or below average players might learn that good players like you take more stuff into consideration during a battle than them. It's a pity that many 'not so good' players always seem to know best however, just like that arty player. It is still a sh!t game though, at least you know that yourself too and next battle will be better.

 

Btw, that reminds me of this dude I met recently:

 



suvicze #18 Posted 21 November 2017 - 06:22 PM

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Hmm received similar reaction few days back when I was in my M46 on steppes. Went the usual med side with few others but a bit late as LT was spotting mid so we tried to get a few shots in if possible. Then we closed in and others must have seen the enemy rushing to a position around that rock (they had numerical advantage and also had 3 autoloaders -> skoda t50, bc25AP and emil), skoda and bc went into a good position behind some slight hills around C0/D0 area hiding most of their tanks and my teammates still rushed down there and of course got slaughtered while blaming me afterwards because I was "sniping" those autoloaders from a relatively safe position around E9/F9 and didnt went to die with them... Afterwards I managed to kill all the enemies with the help of T8 heavy which came from camping base.

This kind of situation where your teammates cant measure the enemy strength properly and continue to their deaths happens quite often unfortunately. If the enemy didnt have any autoloaders or just that Emil I would most likely went in there with them as we had obj 263 but when they have 3 and it is clear that one of ours gets vaporized pretty much instantly by focus fire reducing our already lesser numbers even further there is just no way I am going in there with them no matter how much they will complain afterwards :D



Bennie182 #19 Posted 21 November 2017 - 06:32 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 21 November 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

I find getting chatbanned is the best possible way to remove this option

Already done =D to be honest.. indeed it helps for a part. I have a perma chatban=p the only downside about it, is that I can not give useful info to allies sometimes about hp etc. besides that I don't care. Helps me spend less time on *** players, ruining the match for allies on purpose, or only to farm. The funny thing though is, that people still keep reporting me, but it won't make any sense XD

 

View PostAngelofAwe, on 21 November 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Hello forumites!
.....

Good post here!

Was it a mistake to go east? hmm maybe.. let's say you supported the heavies and the enemy pushes with meds. Still remains, that winning north has the most value as you know. You could have gone to the south east corner and then spot those meds, if you're lucky getting help from that complaining Bat arty. If not, the chances if getting out alive/without taking damage are a lot smaller then getting over there. Also you were the only one being able to support middle, where usually td's pop up.

 

The only thing you missed, was the chance to support your ally in the middle on the Skorpion G. The be honest, I think those 2 FV4202 players deserve more blame, as they could have supported north, instead of sitting useless in the middle.

 

Though I see your good intentions: mostly the people that will read topics like this and respond are people that agree with you. The people who SHOULD read things like this to understand the game better, usually don't come on the forums anyways or think they know it all better.


Edited by Bennie182, 21 November 2017 - 06:34 PM.


ExclamationMark #20 Posted 21 November 2017 - 06:35 PM

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View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 21 November 2017 - 05:49 PM, said:

Tip: go watch that replay, it is really exciting :trollface:

 

It's nice that you show your thought processes during the battle. Average or below average players might learn that good players like you take more stuff into consideration during a battle than them. It's a pity that many 'not so good' players always seem to know best however, just like that arty player. It is still a sh!t game though, at least you know that yourself too and next battle will be better.

 

Btw, that reminds me of this dude I met recently:

 

 

wr is luck!!!!stfu 1!!!!!!!1




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