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T8 matchmaking is crap - what can be done about it?

t8 tier8 mm matchmaking

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ExclamationMark #1 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:21 PM

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Hello,

 

Recently I grinded the KV4, which is the first time I've really played a T8 tank in randoms since the matchmaking changes.

So what I've learned from it is that:

 

- when top tier (I mean in 3-5-7 format), you can absolutely dominate, especially in a tank like the KV4. If you or other T8s don't do well, you severely diminish your team's chance of winning

- when in an equal-tier game (full T8), you won't have that much influence on the game unless you're either in a good tank or mobile tank. Most tanks easily penned my KV4 if they actually knew where to aim (you can't angle the LFP enough, without making the side armour weak + turret is garbage) - so I'm assuming this applies to most tanks that in one way or another rely on armour. This isn't specific to T8 matchmaking though

- when bottom tier in 5-10 matchmaking, you are even more useless. If your T9s do badly, you're highly likely to lose

- when bottom tier in 3-5-7 matchmaking, you are basically just food for the T9s and more realistically the T10s, because you can still hold your ground against T9s in most cases, if you're a competent player. Obviously if you're in something like a 252 against a stock M46 then well... don't think I need to say much here. 

   What's so bad about T8 matchmaking is that you are very commonly in T10 games. At least in my experience it was more than 1/2 the time. If your T10s are bad / do next to nothing, you lose. It's sadly that simple. You have 3 unicums in a WZ5A, M48 and Maus against 3 average players in an IS4, Kranvagn and E5. Enemy team loses, 9/10 times

 

Please remember that this is specific to the KV4, like I said it's the only T8 tank that I've really played in randoms since the matchmaking changes. Though I'm sure this applies to all T8 tanks in one way or another.

So what can be done about T8 matchmaking? I have no suggestions, I'm genuinely interested in how it could be fixed. One thing is sure, you can't say "don't allow T8s to see T10s". While that might work, what position does this put tanks like the IS6 in? They are already terrible tanks and suffer even more than normal T8 tanks do. Doing this would make them completely obsolete.


Edited by ExclamationMark, 21 November 2017 - 04:21 PM.


ZlatanArKung #2 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:27 PM

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View PostExclamationMark, on 21 November 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Hello,

 

Recently I grinded the KV4, which is the first time I've really played a T8 tank in randoms since the matchmaking changes.

So what I've learned from it is that:

 

- when top tier (I mean in 3-5-7 format), you can absolutely dominate, especially in a tank like the KV4. If you or other T8s don't do well, you severely diminish your team's chance of winning

- when in an equal-tier game (full T8), you won't have that much influence on the game unless you're either in a good tank or mobile tank. Most tanks easily penned my KV4 if they actually knew where to aim (you can't angle the LFP enough, without making the side armour weak + turret is garbage) - so I'm assuming this applies to most tanks that in one way or another rely on armour. This isn't specific to T8 matchmaking though

- when bottom tier in 5-10 matchmaking, you are even more useless. If your T9s do badly, you're highly likely to lose

- when bottom tier in 3-5-7 matchmaking, you are basically just food for the T9s and more realistically the T10s, because you can still hold your ground against T9s in most cases, if you're a competent player. Obviously if you're in something like a 252 against a stock M46 then well... don't think I need to say much here. 

   What's so bad about T8 matchmaking is that you are very commonly in T10 games. At least in my experience it was more than 1/2 the time. If your T10s are bad / do next to nothing, you lose. It's sadly that simple. You have 3 unicums in a WZ5A, M48 and Maus against 3 average players in an IS4, Kranvagn and E5. Enemy team loses, 9/10 times

 

Please remember that this is specific to the KV4, like I said it's the only T8 tank that I've really played in randoms since the matchmaking changes. Though I'm sure this applies to all T8 tanks in one way or another.

So what can be done about T8 matchmaking? I have no suggestions, I'm genuinely interested in how it could be fixed. One thing is sure, you can't say "don't allow T8s to see T10s". While that might work, what position does this put tanks like the IS6 in? They are already terrible tanks and suffer even more than normal T8 tanks do. Doing this would make them completely obsolete.

One way would be to scrap the current template MM and go back to the old weight based one where you where top tier in ~1/3 of the games.



Gkirmathal #3 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:29 PM

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By changing the priority of templates. Lower one, so it occurs less, increase the others so they occur more.

Then they could always add a fourth template to make it a bit more diverse.

 

Or just revert to the old system, tier weight based and add better restrictions.

 

 



saso_slo_ms #4 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:33 PM

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the 3-5-7 did indeed foched T8's. Example i buyed T26E5... foching 23 battles in row only T9/10's. 

 

And i stoped playing T8's only because of crazy bad MM with such bad player base. I rly didn't buyed premium tanks to get cannon futher 95% of my battles. And this should get as protest and fixed on next patch ( no need for HD tanks at moment)

 

And like you wrote, when you get in system with 3-5-7 and you high tiers sink ships, you are just for number.



Koove #5 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:37 PM

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I think the new templates are way better than the old completely random f-fests. Bad matchups at least only have 3 "raid bosses". Back in the day I did NOT enjoy ending up in a tier 10 game as the only tier 8 tank (... on both teams). Or watching the opposing team get more top tier tanks and middle tier tanks than your team? No thanks. :)

Games where tier 8 are top-tier are simply way too rare though.

 

I've been noting down which tier is top-tier whenever I've queued up as a tier 8 lately:

Tier 8: 16 games.

Tier 9: 31 games.

Tier 10: 46 games.

 

More tier 8 games and it'll be great.



Kozzy #6 Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:44 PM

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Just make the game have two templates: 5/10 and 15.  Job done.

saso_slo_ms #7 Posted 21 November 2017 - 05:00 PM

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Example of BS MM, and Bot players behind TX tanks. A TX LT sniping whole battle on Malinovka, while top tier Super HT(Type5) die with only 460damage.

 

Now tell me how you will enjoy T8MM with 3xT10 , 3xT9  and 9xT8. T10 should never be in such match, not single one. But we know how is WG, devs under vodka influence  when making decisions how to improve game play.

 

Spoiler

 



Aikl #8 Posted 21 November 2017 - 05:33 PM

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Just removing/reducing 3-5-7 would go a long way. 5-10 is not great, but at least the chance of having someone competent as top-tier is higher. 

 

I don't see 3-5-7 going away, though.

Like just about everything else in WoT it caters to the more relaxed players - the real problem in 3-5-7 is how 12/15 tanks lack competitiveness. It's a way of making sure everyone can have a decently good game once in a while; and just about all of us know that the more competitive players don't really need that.

Oh, and of course it also enforces T9/10 gameplay (because that's where the good matchmaking is) that bleeds credits and increases the need for carrying premium ammo if you want a bit of competitiveness. It's good for the company (at least short-term) and good for a large portion of the playerbase.

 

3-5-7 is in the end just a badly camouflaged scheme catering to a portion of the playerbase.

The main benefit (and player perception) being that doing something as bottom-tier is easier. That is true, in a sense. Effectively it enforces the very problem it claims to solve, and swaps a few really bad matchups to many more pretty bad matchups.

It's probably a matter of taste, but I'd rather have a few terrible matchups than many bad-ish ones. I also strictly prefer being top-tier in a single- or two-tier match rather than a 3-5-7. It's simply more fun. Easy wins are fine sometimes, but aren't very satisfying. 

Heck, I'm not so sure 3-5-7 actually caters that much to less competitive players either. Especially if they platoon up it's easy to get a mismatch when top-tier. A three-man platoon being the only top tiers are often unstoppable if they have superior players, tanks and/or tactics - but it's a whole other deal if they have the risk of meeting (and perhaps losing to) a superior number of enemy tanks. That superior number of tanks would in a sense be a counter to a good enemy platoon. That's actually kind of a decent argument for using in-game statistics, but names and tank choices say a lot too. 


Edited by Aikl, 22 November 2017 - 11:53 AM.


Balc0ra #9 Posted 21 November 2017 - 05:34 PM

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View PostExclamationMark, on 21 November 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Please remember that this is specific to the KV4, like I said it's the only T8 tank that I've really played in randoms since the matchmaking changes. Though I'm sure this applies to all T8 tanks in one way or another.

 

Oh it's the same for most of them. IS-6 can dominate as top tier, but in a +1 game or equal tier game. It's mostly useless.

 

3-5-7 is great for mid tiers, and 5-10 for low tiers as they have +1. As new players in a stock tier 5 with sub 100 pen even don't face 8 tier 7 targets they can't pen anymore, that made them feel 100% useless. Or even that rare tier 7 games where you had 29 tier 7 HT's on the map, and you were the only tier 5.

 

But IMO it is not needed on high tiers. Sure tier 8 MM was not great before the changes, but it's even worse now due to it. That and equal tier games. They really don't work on tier 8 with such vast balance differences atm. Equal tier games on tier 5-6-7 have been fun at times. But on tier 8 it feels 100% pointless. Only works on tier X on high tiers atm. 5-10 might still work. But that 3-5-7 trows everything off on tier 8. My limited MM tier 8's get equal tier games 90% of the time, and my normal MM tier 8's sees +2 most of the time. Not constantly, but more so then before. Just remove 3-5-7 from tier 8+, and equal tier games from tier 8 and 9. And make it 5-10 with +1, or what ever works with +2 instead. Was much better before.


Edited by Balc0ra, 21 November 2017 - 05:35 PM.


Enforcer1975 #10 Posted 21 November 2017 - 05:38 PM

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View Postsaso_slo_ms, on 21 November 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

the 3-5-7 did indeed foched T8's. Example i buyed T26E5... foching 23 battles in row only T9/10's.

 

 I bet you never complained when you were top tier in a 3 tier battle...?

saso_slo_ms #11 Posted 21 November 2017 - 06:04 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 21 November 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

 

 I bet you never complained when you were top tier in a 3 tier battle...?

 

I rearly don't play any low tier games. I play 99% battles at T8+.

 

But like i wrote: i didn't buy premium tanks, to get cannon futher because of MM. 



JocMeister #12 Posted 22 November 2017 - 06:31 AM

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Problem with the new MM is that compete and utter bots are allowed to play top tier. This means your own fate is decided mostly by how good top tiers the MM gives you. This is especially apparent when you play T8 as all TX will just crapon any T8 in the game.  



Phobos4321 #13 Posted 22 November 2017 - 06:54 AM

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well the main issue is that they made their own feedback loop

 

with just 3 top tier tanks they dont remove enough  T10s from the pool

than again the 3/5/7 makes it attractive to play T10s to easy farm T8s

 

so you need to change the distribution of the tanks  be it more pure T10 games  or more 5/10 matches, that way their could be some T8 tanks even used as toptiers

 

i know its biased but right now i got a feeling like : whenever i play a T6 tank there are at least T7 tanks and pretty often T8s too, when playing T8s it feel like getting a pure T8 game at best if not T9/10 Matches 

so somehow ppl manage to be put as toptier but strangly it feels like being left out of these group of ppl  



Enforcer1975 #14 Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:15 AM

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View PostPhobos4321, on 22 November 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

well the main issue is that they made their own feedback loop

 

with just 3 top tier tanks they dont remove enough  T10s from the pool

than again the 3/5/7 makes it attractive to play T10s to easy farm T8s

 

so you need to change the distribution of the tanks  be it more pure T10 games  or more 5/10 matches, that way their could be some T8 tanks even used as toptiers

 

i know its biased but right now i got a feeling like : whenever i play a T6 tank there are at least T7 tanks and pretty often T8s too, when playing T8s it feel like getting a pure T8 game at best if not T9/10 Matches 

so somehow ppl manage to be put as toptier but strangly it feels like being left out of these group of ppl  

Funny note. I got a lot of tier 10 only and GB when playing the 140 the last few days. I saw very few two tier games and many tier 10 games playing tier 8. 2 tier matches aren't that bad. It's the worst when you get bobs in top tiers as Jocmeister mentioned above. 



TeddyMosby #15 Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:28 AM

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I think it's an improvement the 3-5-7 match making because although your bottom tier there's still 7 tier 8s to fight.. so how are you useless unless your running into the face of tier X's

Tier 9 games aren't so bad there's only 3 of them really...

" I've been noting down which tier is top-tier whenever I've queued up as a tier 8 lately:
Tier 8: 16 games.
Tier 9: 31 games.
Tier 10: 46 games"

So those 31 games at tier 9 there was only 3 tanks higher tier than you and the rest where a mix of 7/8 so you still had 12 tanks in that game that are weaker or match your tank... Seems fair to me and those 16 games where you can just roll over other tanks bet you wasn't saying aww so sad these guys can't pen me because there little tier 6s

zerosumgame #16 Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:33 AM

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Making tier 10 play full tier 10 battles 75 % of the time would do the trick, but I don't think WG will do this because of the bonds.

redgismo #17 Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:41 AM

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They need to do something, it's even worse if you platoon :(

JocMeister #18 Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:42 AM

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To prove my point. Just had a 3-5-7 game where our IS7 did 0 damage. Our JPE100 did 300 damage and our E100 did 800 damage. Our IS7 had 140 wn8 and 43% WR (31% in IS7). Our JPE had 500 wn8 and 46% WR and our E100 wasnt any better.

 

While their top tiers wasnt stellar they at least did what the should (press W and leave base) so they won. While I didnt perform stellar either there is virtually nothing I could have done to changed the outcome in that game in my T54 Proto. Their TX combined, pushed one flank while our TX was still in base and the game was over in 4-5 mins.

 

GG WG. Nice MM. Working vodka vodka. 

 



JocMeister #19 Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:43 AM

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View Postzerosumgame, on 22 November 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

Making tier 10 play full tier 10 battles 75 % of the time would do the trick, but I don't think WG will do this because of the bonds.

 

TX is already pretty much 75% full TX? At least seems so to me. 

ZlatanArKung #20 Posted 22 November 2017 - 09:04 AM

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View PostKoove, on 21 November 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

I think the new templates are way better than the old completely random f-fests. Bad matchups at least only have 3 "raid bosses". Back in the day I did NOT enjoy ending up in a tier 10 game as the only tier 8 tank (... on both teams). Or watching the opposing team get more top tier tanks and middle tier tanks than your team? No thanks. :)

Games where tier 8 are top-tier are simply way too rare though.

 

I've been noting down which tier is top-tier whenever I've queued up as a tier 8 lately:

Tier 8: 16 games.

Tier 9: 31 games.

Tier 10: 46 games.

 

More tier 8 games and it'll be great.

 

Being 1 of 3 T8 in a T10 game happened like 4% of the times or something in old MM.

That issue is just severely overrated.

 

The real issue with older one was different amount of top tiered tanks, and different amount of top tiered TDs/MTs/HTs. Something that could be rather easily fixed. 

 







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