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Will the new french heavies be competitive?


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phantom_mitsaras #1 Posted 26 November 2017 - 03:36 PM

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Lets do some speculation, if they are released in their current state I think they will be annihilated by china heavies since they fall in the niche of the "fast heavies ".

 

The fast heavies with armor include: 260, e5, wz111-5, 113,is7

 

I will not talk about e5 as it is not competitive any more so lets not talk about it. Fast heavies are tasked with agressively taking a position and holding it against a med counterattack mostly, their role cannot be substituted by 907s most of the time because they cant trade or hull down  well. Say new french heavies rush and contest a position, they will have ti fight china heavies, what advatage they have over them? -10 gun depression while the china heavies have -7, thats it.

 

China heavies have vastly better turret, more dpm, more alpha MASSIVELY BETTER side armor and are smaller. When a french heavy peaks over a ridgeline it exposes its massive unarmored turret side to everyone 10 degrees to each side of its position, while a china heavy can peak with its small rounded and armored turret. I think 4 vs 4 french vs china heavies will be a slaughter for frenchies. The only reason you may want to play them will be the  tier 8 with 325 apcr pen to troll defender turrets , thats it. Any thoughts?

 

TLDR french heavies will be underpowered and china fodder.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #2 Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:09 PM

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You're doing it wrong. Standard practice when WG introduce a new tank or line is to whine that it's going to be OP.

MajorTom75 #3 Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:18 PM

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Well, the average performance stats will drive WG's next move on this one. However, I personally believe that eventually this new French line will be buffed to some degree in order to be even close to competitive.

commer #4 Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:20 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 26 November 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

You're doing it wrong. Standard practice when WG introduce a new tank or line is to whine that it's going to be OP.

 

Not every one. First Kranvagn and Swede Heavies are meh at best. First version of Type4/type5 was bad. All new lights are bad, China TD's are meh.

Mossad001 #5 Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:20 PM

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View Postphantom_mitsaras, on 26 November 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

Lets do some speculation, if they are released in their current state I think they will be annihilated by china heavies since they fall in the niche of the "fast heavies ".

 

The fast heavies with armor include: 260, e5, wz111-5, 113,is7

 

I will not talk about e5 as it is not competitive any more so lets not talk about it. Fast heavies are tasked with agressively taking a position and holding it against a med counterattack mostly, their role cannot be substituted by 907s most of the time because they cant trade or hull down  well. Say new french heavies rush and contest a position, they will have ti fight china heavies, what advatage they have over them? -10 gun depression while the china heavies have -7, thats it.

 

China heavies have vastly better turret, more dpm, more alpha MASSIVELY BETTER side armor and are smaller. When a french heavy peaks over a ridgeline it exposes its massive unarmored turret side to everyone 10 degrees to each side of its position, while a china heavy can peak with its small rounded and armored turret. I think 4 vs 4 french vs china heavies will be a slaughter for frenchies. The only reason you may want to play them will be the  tier 8 with 325 apcr pen to troll defender turrets , thats it. Any thoughts?

 

TLDR french heavies will be underpowered and china fodder.

 

Players are competitive  tanks are just  tools  players are good or bad  a Noob in a good tank is still a Noob

Sfinski #6 Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:20 PM

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I will probably prefer them over S.conqueror still. They'd need a bit dpm and some guns pen buff but otherwise they seem ok-ish. Not being uber-awesome isn't a bad thing. 

 

 



Sfinski #7 Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:22 PM

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View PostMossad001, on 26 November 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

 

Players are competitive  tanks are just  tools  players are good or bad  a Noob in a good tank is still a Noob

 

So no tank can be bad or too good? Of course good players play well in any tank compared to bad players, but that doesn't take out the effectiveness of tanks being played...

phantom_mitsaras #8 Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:41 PM

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View PostMossad001, on 26 November 2017 - 04:20 PM, said:

 

Players are competitive  tanks are just  tools  players are good or bad  a Noob in a good tank is still a Noob

 

You don't get it do you? This is a tank not a skill based discussion. And no pros do not pick troll lineups in competitive battles they pick wz, 113 bat 907 type 5 and strv sometimes. Do you know why they dont pick teams full of leopards/ obj 430s and tier 10 lights? CAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Mossad001 #9 Posted 26 November 2017 - 05:07 PM

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I do get it you don't ! no matter how good the tank if your crap your crap players are good or bad a crap player in a op tank will still be crap tanks don't win the battle players do

TacPenguin #10 Posted 26 November 2017 - 05:13 PM

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They will be competitive to OP.  Wargamming introduce a new tank line in an OP format to get players to grind them and spend time and money to get them.

 

Then 3 patches later when they have been milked they will get nerfed to uselessness and left in this state for at least 3 years while WG gather Stats.

 

Well that's my experience since 2011.  :B

 

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Sfinski #11 Posted 26 November 2017 - 05:32 PM

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View PostTacPenguin, on 26 November 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

They will be competitive to OP.  Wargamming introduce a new tank line in an OP format to get players to grind them and spend time and money to get them.

 

Then 3 patches later when they have been milked they will get nerfed to uselessness and left in this state for at least 3 years while WG gather Stats.

 

Well that's my experience since 2011.  :B

 

TacP

 

What in them is op?

TacPenguin #12 Posted 26 November 2017 - 06:12 PM

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no idea.

 

I based my opinion on how WG have implemented most new lines and my experience of how they perform on test compared to live servers.

 

I said "They will be competitive to OP" not that they are "competitive to OP"  I have played too few battles in them to make conclusive opinion.  I would expect another iteration of the test server so who knows what parameters might be adjusted.

 

I believe It is of small value to try and judge tanks while on test with all the Premium ammo flying around.  I don't see how WG can even try.

 

I will wait to see when they hit the live server.

 

 

TacP


Edited by TacPenguin, 26 November 2017 - 06:15 PM.


FatigueGalaxy #13 Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:09 PM

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Unless buffed in #2nd test, they will be as good as M103/T110E5 or slightly better. I think statistically worse big guns will actually be better on live server because of easier trading, less exposure - those tanks have weakspots (unless perfectly hulldown) so showing them to enemy less is better. DPM advantage with smaller guns is too small IMO.

 

Penetration might be a problem with bigger guns. So you have to choose: you can be either competitive but very similar to M103/T110E5/Conquerors or have more fun with bigger guns. After all, big gun on a mobile heavy with superheavy armour (frontally) sounds interesting.

 

I like that their armour is not idiot-proof. It's strong but as soon as somebody gets even a slight angle on you, it's easy pen. Just like other heavies have to keep correct angle to their opponents, you have to keep your armour straight towards your enemy and engage them one by one.

 

Hopefully, WG won't overbuff them in 2nd test. They only need slight tweaks here and there.



Pansenmann #14 Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:37 PM

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according to some comments in the test server etc.

they seem to be not competitive.

But I will research and buy them,

because they're french.



Noo_Noo #15 Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

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Iif it were normal WG practice for new lines they will be kind in the middle bar one or two which will be OP. Probably the tier 10 so that everyone spends free XP and gold to get there etc.

ogremage #16 Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:00 PM

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I'm sure they will introduce them with t8 as rubbish, t10 as OP, everyone rushes to get them and jumps over t8, then t10 gets nerfed in a few months.

leggasiini #17 Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:55 PM

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Tier 10 with 130 is pretty fun tbh. 280 gold is poop but its fast enough to play it like a heavium, and it has very nice accuracy and also good gun handling for such a big gun. It might not feel impressive on test but I bet you that on live it will be much stronger VS tier 8s and 9s. 120 might be technically better just solely because of ability to fight tier 10 superheavies better but there is no reason to play it with 120 over Super Conqueror. 130 gives atleast gives it a niche of being hardest hitting heavium in the game which is cool and quite interesting.

 

Tier 9 is good with 120, kinda like Conqueror that trades some depression, accuracy on move and turret armor for drastically stronger LFP and better mobility, and Conqueror is very strong tier 9 so it seems pretty promising. 127 id really questionable, though. 257 gold pen is really questionable, though DPM + gun handling for 470 alpha is rly good.

 

Tier 8 is horrendous though. The 120 with gold spam makes it pretty decent but the platform is godawful, and 120 requires alot of XP and is not necessary for tier 9. With 100 mm its a Liberte with no hull armor, so...

 

Tier 8 needs quite a few buffs, but 120 APCR nerfed, tier 9 needs pen buff on both rounds and tier 10 on gold round on their 127 and 130 mm guns, respectively. I dont mind if the tier 10 gets minor adjustments, but I dont think its really necessary and it would risk for making it yet another powercreep HT.



LeGod7 #18 Posted 27 November 2017 - 12:46 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 26 November 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

Tier 10 with 130 is pretty fun tbh. 280 gold is poop but its fast enough to play it like a heavium, and it has very nice accuracy and also good gun handling for such a big gun. It might not feel impressive on test but I bet you that on live it will be much stronger VS tier 8s and 9s. 120 might be technically better just solely because of ability to fight tier 10 superheavies better but there is no reason to play it with 120 over Super Conqueror. 130 gives atleast gives it a niche of being hardest hitting heavium in the game which is cool and quite interesting.

 

Tier 9 is good with 120, kinda like Conqueror that trades some depression, accuracy on move and turret armor for drastically stronger LFP and better mobility, and Conqueror is very strong tier 9 so it seems pretty promising. 127 id really questionable, though. 257 gold pen is really questionable, though DPM + gun handling for 470 alpha is rly good.

 

 

This basically, I think they are ok balanced at the moment, still a little annoyed the LFPs are so strong but the sides are so weak that any angle onto these tanks is trouble.

 

The tier 8 premium round needs nerfing and the tank needs some other buffs.

 

I actually preferred the Tier 10 with the 130mm, seemed more effective to me and as you say on live it will be even stronger facing more tier 8s and 9s. The 120 is ok, it still has high pen, very good gun handling and you get more mobility and a better hull armour than the Super Conq.

 

Which is why they shouldn't increase the 120s DPM on the tier 10, because you are then encroaching on the Super Conq too much. You are trading DPM for better mobility and a better lower plate, so seems a fair trade off to me. 

 



commer #19 Posted 27 November 2017 - 02:00 PM

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View PostTacPenguin, on 26 November 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

no idea.

 

I based my opinion on how WG have implemented most new lines and my experience of how they perform on test compared to live servers.

 

I said "They will be competitive to OP" not that they are "competitive to OP"  I have played too few battles in them to make conclusive opinion.  I would expect another iteration of the test server so who knows what parameters might be adjusted.

 

I believe It is of small value to try and judge tanks while on test with all the Premium ammo flying around.  I don't see how WG can even try.

 

I will wait to see when they hit the live server.

 

 

TacP

 

See my post above. Most recent new lines have been bad to average. 

Bennie182 #20 Posted 27 November 2017 - 02:28 PM

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View Postphantom_mitsaras, on 26 November 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

....

I wonder on info your opinion is based. Did you play them on the test server?

 

In the current state on the test server, I won't play those heavies. Too sluggish so "new french heavies rush and contest a position" is not going to happen. Mobility is alright, but far from great. Some gun stats are strange, like 120mm on 65T has better gun handling than the lower caliber 100mm. Haven't been able to test the armor well enough, because most players go full premium ammo. Even FV4202 and other tier 8 meds pen 65T easily with premium ammo. The armor works only head on anyways. I find the view range too low as well. Every tier they have 10m less then their French auto-loader counterpart.






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