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Help a(or 5) tomaroes

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komunistu33 #1 Posted 30 November 2017 - 12:27 AM

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I was bored and decided to gve SH a try. What I've noticed so far is that tomatoes kind of understand the meta but only so much. For instance, I got into a team and we got the Mines map, they all rushed hill but had no idea what to do after getting there. Today I joined a clan's SH (all around 45% WR) they decided I should be the caller for whatever reason and I went along with it. 

 

The conclusion I can draw from this is that tomaoes (at least some) understand the basics but that's about it, they need someone to guide them. I've played around 6 battles in SH and it's been fun, we won most of the games and I'm a sh*t caller, but getting everyone to work as one is a huge deal and advantage. What I'm trying to say is that there is hope, give SHs a try, you'd be surprised how "baddies" can surpise the enemy if they're coordinated. 



Ankara_Aatu #2 Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:19 AM

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View Postkomunistu33, on 30 November 2017 - 12:27 AM, said:

What I've noticed so far is that tomatoes kind of understand the meta but only so much. For instance, I got into a team and we got the Mines map, they all rushed hill but had no idea what to do after getting there.

This seems accurate for a large number of players in randoms, too. If the enemy for some reason gives up a critical location without a fight, many seem to have difficulties understanding how to take advantage. In my experience a lot of people just keep on pushing towards the enemy base until they spot something or get rekt. This suggests that the average tanker doesn't have a clear understanding of why they are fighting for the key locations in the first place, they just go there because they have seen other people go there, and because usually that's where the enemy is as well.

 

Relatedly, in some maps people flock to a relatively unimportant location (Valley on Lakeville, west side low ground on Steppes; both especially in encounter mode), just because they see others going there and expect that there will be enemies to shoot at. So I'd say that the average guy recognizes the meta, but doesn't fully understand it, or the reasons behind it.



etody77 #3 Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:34 AM

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In random, if you have a team with kamikaze tomatoes, and if you are top tier, you will win  they will follow the top tier tank, support and help him. But, if you are bottom tier and the tomatoes want to camp, that game is lost. 

Enforcer1975 #4 Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:51 AM

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All that is true. The problem is putting all that knowledge into action. I am still working on it but i am much better than when i started. What you also need is the drive to do so or you will just end up staying in denial like many recent "those who are better than me are cheating" posters.

mister_duch #5 Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:16 AM

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Of course you can with bobs on tier 6. The enemy only needs to make one mistake to win. As soon as you go play tier 10 SH with bobs then you realise its starting to get a lot harder. Because some people cant make decisions or use better positions on their own. And with 14 other people in the battle it is impossilbe to micro manage every one and play your own game at the same time. And btw with skilled MM on SH that bob clan has to fight against other bob clans so they have 50% chance of winning most of the time.

Edited by mister_duch, 30 November 2017 - 11:17 AM.


komunistu33 #6 Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:20 AM

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View Postmister_duch, on 30 November 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

And btw with skilled MM on SH that bob clan has to fight agaisnt other bob clans so they have 50% chance of winning most of the time.

That's why you join the worst team that can understand English. If you join red bobs you'll be matched up against orange-yellows or greens (depending on your PR/WN8). If you start your own team with decent-good players (green-blues) you'll be matched up against the best team(s). I think it matches the commander's PR not the whole team's. 



Headless_Rooster #7 Posted 30 November 2017 - 01:17 PM

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View Postkomunistu33, on 30 November 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

 I think it matches the commander's PR not the whole team's. 

 

when our CO (8kPR) plays his alt account I usually start the skirmish up (3.5k PR), can't say I've noticed a difference, but saying that I've not payed much attention to it either (don't have xvm)

 

Anyone know for sure?



mvdt #8 Posted 30 November 2017 - 01:22 PM

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For strongholds your ELO rating depends your matchmaking. So the higher it is the better the teams will be.

mvdt #9 Posted 30 November 2017 - 01:23 PM

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View Postmvdt, on 30 November 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

For strongholds your ELO rating depends your matchmaking. So the higher it is the better the teams will be.

 

The ELO rating of the clan that is^

 



LeGod7 #10 Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:55 PM

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This thread is a good insight into the 'tomato' player, it's old but I doubt much has changed -

 

http://forum.wotlabs.net/index.php?/topic/13489-what-i-learned-from-platooning-with-dark-reds/

 

Block Quote

 

1.  They were extremely slow to react.

 

Right away, I saw they were very slow to react.  It was common for them to take hits and not notice or react.  If I told them to follow me or whatever, it would often take at least a minute before they started to do so.  They had very long periods of inactivity, evidently just from not being sure what to do, or just processing what was going on.  During this time, they OFTEN got [edited]slapped very, very hard.

 

2.  They could not do two things at the same time.

 

In a void, they did fine and looking at minimap or driving or shooting or angling.  But once combat actually started raging, it was pick one and the rest wasn't happening.  They would rarely notice a medium on their minimap moving around them as they were peekabooming, for example.  They could only angle armor if they weren't aiming their gun.  And so on.  This combined with their lack of good judgement of what was important -- one thing I tried to tell them was if you aren't able to do everything, at least do the most important thing given the situation at hand.  But they didn't know what that was.

 

3.  When they saw things (or were told things), they had no idea how to react to them. 

 

No matter what happened around them, they did the same things (usually whatever had worked for them in some past game, or what I told them to do, or just drove to some random spot and tried to see what happened, or followed the herd).  When a situation changed, even when they noticed it or I told them, they had no idea how to react.  I mean literally none.  Not even a glimmer.  Even ideas like crossfire didn't work -- they knew it was a good thing, but didn't have the slightest idea of how they could create the situation.

 

This baffled me, to be honest.  I could ask them between battles things like -- "under what conditions is an IS-3 better than a medium?" and they could answer correctly.  But when they loaded into a map and had the option of either brawling with the mediums in town or fighting them in camo games in an open field, they blanked.  Even on the most basic level, adjusting tactics to fit the situation just didn't happen.

 

4.  Their individual skill was poor, but not unworkable.

 

They were slow at aiming and not very good at using their armor and such, but this was primarily the result of #2 and #3.  In a void, I could tell them "ok angle as if you were peekabooming a tank in front of you" or "tell me the weak points of a KT" and they could generally do it.  But putting it into practice broke down really quickly.

 

5.  Battlefield "intangibles" meant nothing to them.

 

At one point I started talking about the importance of early damage.  They got that right away -- the obvious snowball effect.  But when I talked about using a light tank to herd people into an area to trap them, to identify hostile movements to give you the ability to counterattack, morale, to think ahead about what the effects of a given strategy would be, and so on they didn't even know what I meant.  I decided to pick my battles, and just focus on trying to get them to carry their weight.  But even in extreme examples -- such as heavy tanks going ditch on lakeville instead of town, they couldn't really understand why that was a bad idea.  They could memorize what I said, but the rationale meant nothing to them.

 

BUT HERE'S WHAT THEY COULD DO:

 

 

1.  ZERG, ZERG, ZERG!

 

One thing that did seem to click right away -- the value of mass tank pushes.  They understood right away that if 5 tanks peekaboomed with 2, the 2 might just win.  But if 5 tanks all rush around at once on 2, the two die horribly and quickly no matter how good they are.  They were afraid to do this with pubs, as they expected the pubs wouldn't help them, but once I pointed out a three man platoon can do the same thing a lot of the time that really seemed to click.  This was one of the things that helped. 

 

I told them a simple rule:

 

1.  Find a spot with fewer tanks than you.  Preferably just one, or a couple of weak tanks.

2.  Next, check to make sure that tank isn't in a place where he can be supported by too many unseen snipers.  Be especially careful of camping TDs in bushes.

3.  If not, zerg him -- hardest, highest HP tank first and facehug him, other tanks flow around him and smack his sides.

4.  Get to cover, reevaluate.

 

Using that, they were frequently able to at least do their HP in damage, although they often were still unable to judge #2 very well.  But once they learned the basics they got a lot better quickly at zerging down isolated tanks with relatively few yoloderps.  So there was that, at least.

 

2.  Make the other guy beat you.

 

They lost peekabooms pretty much all the time.  I tried to encourage them to get better at that, but also I told them this as a basic fallback plan.  At first, peekaboom with the hostile.  If he pens you 1-2 times and you aren't penning him, stop peeking.  Make him advance around in the open and come dig you out.  Even if it means just sitting there, as long as you are tying him up that's ok.  Its better than getting killed and having him move around anyway.  Or if you have to, back off 50-100m and force him to come out of his good position or not be able to fire.  This is particular useful for dealing with tanks that are extremely strong in some situations (sidescrape IS-6, hull down T29, etc).

 

That made sense to them, and if a peekaboom didn't go their way, they just tucked in cover and waited.  A lot of the time, the hostiles would get bored and derp, giving them back the advantage.

 

3.  Stay near the fight, even if you can't be in the fight.

 

I stress the importance of keeping your gun hot.  They tried to do this, but it often failed.  They simply lacked the judgement or execution to stay alive in hard situations, and when they tried to duplicate the way I attacked they got murdered.  But we found a way to get some of the gain in a way they could handle -- simply be near the action.  Don't sit in back, don't pick a rock and camp, advance until you are within firing and spotting range, then stay safe.  At a minimum, you force the opponents to deal with you, or risk getting popped in the back when they try to look away.  Even if its slow, and lower output than attacking, its a hell of a lot safer.  So I told them to just be a threat, even if you spend most of the time hiding.  It seemed to work. 

 

 

 







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