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The Premium Ammo Question

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nooby1337 #1 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:13 AM

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Greetings.

I found a way to easily fix premium ammo while wargaming can still push their borderline idiotic superheavy meta that they like so much.

First, you refund ALL the purchased premium ammo (whether it was purchased by gold or credits, obviously ammo bought with gold to be refunded with gold)

Then you reduce the damage that gold ammunition does while still making sense (APCR and HEAT doing less, SABOT and others debatable) - you can also reduce the module damage that they deal.

After that you can reduce the cost of premium ammo (but make the default choice credits for god's sake)

All this while rebalancing tanks that are dependent on premium ammo (KV-5 for example)

That's it. Your game's mostly fixed. 

 

Now I know that Wargaming is still a company and needs to make money for their moon base, they could make more customization options for tanks and cool events that rewards players for supporting the game with money such as unique skins and paintjobs (though they are already considering the latter)



RamRaid90 #2 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:19 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

Greetings.

I found a way to easily fix premium ammo while wargaming can still push their borderline idiotic superheavy meta that they like so much.

First, you refund ALL the purchased premium ammo (whether it was purchased by gold or credits, obviously ammo bought with gold to be refunded with gold)

Then you reduce the damage that gold ammunition does while still making sense (APCR and HEAT doing less, SABOT and others debatable) - you can also reduce the module damage that they deal.

After that you can reduce the cost of premium ammo (but make the default choice credits for god's sake)

All this while rebalancing tanks that are dependent on premium ammo (KV-5 for example)

That's it. Your game's mostly fixed. 

 

Now I know that Wargaming is still a company and needs to make money for their moon base, they could make more customization options for tanks and cool events that rewards players for supporting the game with money such as unique skins and paintjobs (though they are already considering the latter)

 

Customization is in the next patch.

 

The biggest problem with premium ammo, is the people whinging about it all the time.



xx984 #3 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:25 AM

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Been suggested so many times before 

nooby1337 #4 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:27 AM

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The problem with premium ammo is that it completely nullifies your heavy tank's armour most of the time and is a pay to win concept. 

Which creates a problem where heavy tanks have a changing skill cap, depending on whether the enemy tank decided to spend extra money on making you useless. This is a problem that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Especially the flat out retarded premium ammo of the Type 4/5 tanks, that is just absurd.

@xx984 I think if the community collectively agrees with a solution that is benefitical to the playerbase as well as the developers, it's a win-win for everyone and it should be forwarded to them. So by making this post I'm hoping to have this message spread amongst the community.


Edited by nooby1337, 30 November 2017 - 04:29 AM.


captainpigg #5 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:28 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

Greetings.

I found a way to easily fix premium ammo while wargaming can still push their borderline idiotic superheavy meta that they like so much.

First, you refund ALL the purchased premium ammo (whether it was purchased by gold or credits, obviously ammo bought with gold to be refunded with gold)

Then you reduce the damage that gold ammunition does while still making sense (APCR and HEAT doing less, SABOT and others debatable) - you can also reduce the module damage that they deal.

After that you can reduce the cost of premium ammo (but make the default choice credits for god's sake)

All this while rebalancing tanks that are dependent on premium ammo (KV-5 for example)

That's it. Your game's mostly fixed. 

 

Now I know that Wargaming is still a company and needs to make money for their moon base, they could make more customization options for tanks and cool events that rewards players for supporting the game with money such as unique skins and paintjobs (though they are already considering the latter)

 

So basically WoT's Blitz then?

nooby1337 #6 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:32 AM

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View Postcaptainpigg, on 30 November 2017 - 03:28 AM, said:

 

So basically WoT's Blitz then?

 

Yeah, why not? I always thought that Wot Blitz was a testing ground for the main game. If it works for them, surely it will work for us too.

xx984 #7 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:35 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:27 AM, said:

The problem with premium ammo is that it completely nullifies your heavy tank's armour most of the time and is a pay to win concept. 

Which creates a problem where heavy tanks have a changing skill cap, depending on whether the enemy tank decided to spend extra money on making you useless. This is a problem that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Especially the flat out retarded premium ammo of the Type 4/5 tanks, that is just absurd.

@xx984 I think if the community collectively agrees with a solution that is benefitical to the playerbase as well as the developers, it's a win-win for everyone and it should be forwarded to them. So by making this post I'm hoping to have this message spread amongst the community.

Don't get me wrong, I agree as well. All im saying is that many people make threads on this all the time and so far WG has never listened (Surprise surprise)



nooby1337 #8 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:38 AM

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@xx984 I think that if everyone's on the same page about this issue we have a higher chance of having WG listen to us. Just spread the word. :)

xx984 #9 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:41 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

@xx984 I think that if everyone's on the same page about this issue we have a higher chance of having WG listen to us. Just spread the word. :)

 

While that would make sense, Unfortunately alot of the player base does not use the forums to see this sort of stuff anyway. What may seem like alot of people agreeing on the same thing isnt actually alot in terms of the playerbase, We forum users make up a small percentage and there is no way of knowing what the majority wants unless WG do one of those surveys they sometimes do on the issue. Which i doubt they will as its Wargaming and they would rather pretend everything is fine

Edited by xx984, 30 November 2017 - 04:41 AM.


RamRaid90 #10 Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:41 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

@xx984 I think that if everyone's on the same page about this issue we have a higher chance of having WG listen to us. Just spread the word. :)

 

IIRC less than 5% of the playerbase use the forums. Of those, probably around 50% of us have working braincells.

 

This topic is years old, and has been getting suggested since the very beginning of the game (just use the search function)



Homer_J #11 Posted 30 November 2017 - 05:28 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

APCR and HEAT doing less, 

Silly Billy, HEAT should do more.  All that molten metal being squirted into the tank.

View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

 

Yeah, why not? I always thought that Wot Blitz was a testing ground for the main game. If it works for them, surely it will work for us too.

You can buy your way to tier X without ever playing in Blitz.  Surely that will work for us too?

 

View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

@xx984 I think that if everyone's on the same page about this issue 

 

You have a slight problem there.

 

We aren't.

 

Some of us, believe it or not, are happy with premium ammo as it is.


 

vasilinhorulezz #12 Posted 30 November 2017 - 07:16 AM

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How about no?

K_A #13 Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:07 AM

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Yeah, sounds like a simple and easy fix! First, just decrease the damage for some premium rounds, and then decrease their cost, and then just easily with a flick of your hand simply rebalance half the tanks in the game!:harp: Why didn't we think of this super easy fix before? :facepalm:

Gremlin182 #14 Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:32 AM

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Assume for the moment that wargaming over time balance tanks based on how they perform in the game.

Tanks that underperform get buffed and tanks that overperform get nerfed at least that's the way it seems to happen.

Premium ammo gives every tank a penetration buff either for gold or credits.

Its a gold/credit sink the same way as repair costs and all other costs in the game, designed to keep us playing to earn the xp and credits to

 

So what happens over time iof premium ammo is nerfed or removed from the game.

Its anyone's guess of course but I think that wargaming will start to look at armour values and standard ammo costs and effectiveness.

Come back in a dozen patches and find armour nerfed on tanks that overperformed and ammo pen buffed on tanks that underperformed and standard ammo costing a little more.

 

Where now you can pay 1000 for AP and 5000 for premium we will be paying 2000 for AP and doing much the same pen as we did with premium.

 



Jigabachi #15 Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:05 AM

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What a novel and totally complete idea. Why didn't we think about that earlier, like... multiple years earlier?

Enforcer1975 #16 Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:36 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 04:27 AM, said:

The problem with premium ammo is that it completely nullifies your heavy tank's armour most of the time and is a pay to win concept. 

So by your logic we need to remove weakspots or give them insane armor too because they would nullify your heavy tank armor? 

...oh wait we already have those...and FYI it's basically impossible to pen them with most tanks even with premium ammo especially when they are lower tier. 

Btw i had a tier 10 only game on Karelia where an IS-7 and a Maus spammed nothing but premium at my Obj. 140 - i bounced 5.5k damage including 3 from a Batchat that game. 

Not that i dislike a rework NO i'm all for it but removing income for WG from players who need to buy gold, silver, premium tanks or time to be able to spam it calls for another way to earn money. I wouldn't mind a 5€ subscription per month in exchange for having everything buyable only for silver. They can take 10€ for a premium account. I have to look which community it was but there was one that refused their game ( a sony title iirc ) to be turned into a f2p game and gladly pay a monthly fee in exchange.  


Edited by Enforcer1975, 30 November 2017 - 11:49 AM.


LeGod7 #17 Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:44 AM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 04:27 AM, said:

The problem with premium ammo is that it completely nullifies your heavy tank's armour most of the time and is a pay to win concept. 

 

 

Can we please stop with this nonsense. 

 

One, pay to win is something behind an exclusive pay wall, premium ammo is like everything else in game in that is paid for by in game credits. If you grind credits and spend 6 million credits on a new tier 10 tank, then you can quite as easily spend 6 million credits on premium ammo. You might argue that spamming premium ammo is not affordable and certainly armour power creep is almost putting a requirement on using premium ammo in certain circumstances (like trying to shoot a Type 5 heavy) but you need to grind credits for stuff in game, equipment, crew training, new tanks, consumables etc. Premium ammo is no different to that. 

 

Secondly it is does not make armour 'useless', it makes it less powerful, but in many cases that is necessary because we have massive armour power creep, with tanks like the Maus, Japanese heavies, Defender etc. dominating games and often cannot be penetrated frontally by same tier tanks, let alone lower tier tanks. An E100's armour is not made useless by tier 8 premium ammo, premium ammo gives tier 8s a chance to actually damage an E100, so some would argue that is providing balance not the opposite. 

 

Pretty much every tier 9 and 10 heavy tank is more than capable of bouncing tier 9 and 10 premium ammo if used correctly. 

 

This is the problem with premium ammo threads and discussions, 99% of it is based on whine, butthurt and people using premium ammo as an excuse for their poor play. It must in be top 3 excuses used by scrubs who can't admit they failed and mucked up, but instead blame their own lack of ability and mistakes on things like premium ammo.

 

Far too much nonsense is spouted about premium ammo and you have just repeated two of the most commonly used myths which makes this discussion pointless.

 

Most players reaction to premium ammo is an emotional one, these threads appear after someone has shot them with premium ammo, they have died and they are angry because they think premium ammo was the cause (whereas in reality it was their poor play).

 

If you look at premium ammo objectively and logically it is not that big of a problem, it needs some tweaking and in reality other issues with the game are causing more problems that people then associate with premium ammo.

 

Such as 

  • Poor map design forcing frontal engagements against armoured tanks and no ability to flank or use range/vision against them. 

 

  • Poor armour design and overbuffed armour where some tanks cannot be penned frontally by standard ammo and the general removal of weakspots.

 

  • The above two points forcing a credit drain, as people feel like they need to fire lots of premium ammo to compete, as they either have to face armoured tanks frontally and they are facing armoured tanks with no frontal weakspots, thus people then struggle to maintain their credit balance. 

 

  • The poor MM forcing bottom tiers to see more +2 games, where their standard pen is weak, so again they are forced into using more premium ammo or they do little which impacts the amount of credits they earn in most games. This is then felt hard in premium tanks, particularly tier 8 premiums that consistently face tier 10 games and makes credit grinding tiresome and inefficient. 

 

  • Some tanks that just have far too low standard penetration for their tiers, like most tier 8 mediums with 190-200 AP pen, when facing even same tier heavy tanks with weakspots they can't reliably pen. Meaning players in these tanks often use lots of premium ammo as they are fed up with their weak standard pen bouncing.

 

  • RNG being too high, -25/+25% is just too much variation on high penetration guns, the E50M's 270 pen APCR round, can roll as low as 203mm of penetration and as high as 337mm of penetration. So even shooting weakspots, RNG can just troll you over and over, which again means people reach for premium ammo as it is an RNG proof round. If that E100 is a one shot and I need to kill him to win the game, through his lower plate, do I use APCR that has a 30% chance of bouncing, or do I use HEAT that is a guaranteed pen?

 

 

If you fixed those issues you would see far less premium ammo used and far less whine about it. 

 

Then it would not need much changing, IMO all that needs changing with premium ammo is -

 

1. A slight reduction in it's penetration rate, so for example your 330 pen HEAT rounds on tier 10 mediums become 300 pen.

2. More uniform increases, you shouldn't have for example a T-54 going from 201 pen standard to 330 pen with premium, whilst a Panther 88 goes from 203 pen standard to 237 pen premium. Again this relates to fixing standard penetration on some tanks that is too low. 

3. More uniform costs, some premium rounds are too cheap (like E100 HEAT) and some are far too expensive (like Bulldog HEAT)

4. Removal of tier 10 TD gun premium rounds, or a heavy nerf of their penetration. 420 HEAT or 375 APCR is just stupid, so either they go completely and you re-work tier 10 TDs so they have a higher pen, lower alpha standard round and a lower pen, higher alpha premium round. So for example T110E3/E4 would have a 650 alpha, 295 pen AP round, and then a 220 pen, 850 alpha premium round. 

 

But you can't make those changes until you fix the fundamental issues with the game.

 

Reducing premium ammo alpha won't change much, people will still whine they got penned whatever damage it does and lower tier vehicles and vehicles with low alpha/high DPM get heavily nerfed. A Comet in a tier 9 game already does just 145 damage and often needs premium ammo to challenge heavy tank sides, giving it 110 damage with premium ammo is just a massive nerf to it.

 

 


Edited by LeGod7, 30 November 2017 - 11:48 AM.


HundeWurst #18 Posted 30 November 2017 - 12:27 PM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 04:13 AM, said:

Greetings.

I found a way to easily fix premium ammo while wargaming can still push their borderline idiotic superheavy meta that they like so much.

First, you refund ALL the purchased premium ammo (whether it was purchased by gold or credits, obviously ammo bought with gold to be refunded with gold)

Then you reduce the damage that gold ammunition does while still making sense (APCR and HEAT doing less, SABOT and others debatable) - you can also reduce the module damage that they deal.

After that you can reduce the cost of premium ammo (but make the default choice credits for god's sake)

All this while rebalancing tanks that are dependent on premium ammo (KV-5 for example)

That's it. Your game's mostly fixed. 

 

Now I know that Wargaming is still a company and needs to make money for their moon base, they could make more customization options for tanks and cool events that rewards players for supporting the game with money such as unique skins and paintjobs (though they are already considering the latter)

 

You are most certainly the first guy ever coming up with that idea.

 

NOT

 

Yeah its a decent idea after all but that would also require a rebalance of pretty much any tank out there. Very welcome but wont happen since that would hurt WGs revenue.



Hedgehog1963 #19 Posted 30 November 2017 - 01:49 PM

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View Postnooby1337, on 30 November 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

@xx984 I think that if everyone's on the same page about this issue we have a higher chance of having WG listen to us. Just spread the word. :)

 

Problem is that not everyone agrees.

kaneloon #20 Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:14 PM

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Reducing alpha or making it more expensive would at least lessen the profit of using it.

Well used some prem ammo can make u survive and carry your team in the end of the battle, where not using it would only be a loss of the battle and loss of money.





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