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Metagame Guidelines and Pointers

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yun9 #1 Posted 01 December 2017 - 08:04 AM

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I originally made this topic on Wotlabs but I figured it'd be more useful here, enjoy.

 

I was thinking about making a thread about some common metagame questions I've learnt to answer during the 4 years I've played this game.

Let's start off with the most common and perhaps the easiest one (at least for me) to answer:

 

  • I'm bottom tier - what the hell do I do?

It's pretty obvious actually. First of all is that you absolutely need to know what your tank excels at and where you can fight tanks that you can excel against and that is just something that comes with experience. After that you need to put it into practice, read the enemy lineup and try and predict where they're going. A lot of people have played the game for many years so some form of intuition should develop here, especially on some maps where the entire thing is really predictable. Take the standard El Halluf, or Erlenberg. It's really easy there. You won't know the exact spot they'll be playing but you should be able to tell what area they're going to be in because like you (hopefully) they're going to what is either meta, or what suits their tank. With this in mind it should become much clearer how areas are going to play out before they have played out, and how aggressive you can be without overdoing it. As a tier 8 in a T10 game this is really important because the amount of opportunities you get to really play anything but 2nd line are few so knowing where these situations are going to open up in advance is the key to being able to be there on time and capitalise. However, you're going to be wrong. Nobody's perfect and it takes time to get good at, but you'll always misjudge situations or the people you play with/against at times, so the next thing that occurs is that you also need to be able to think on your feet. You should have a sense of what you want to accomplish and a strategy for it, but something happens and it doesn't pan out so you need to rethink the entire thing and start over. Luckily this gets easier and easier as the match progresses because you'll get more and more information to use. Whatever you thought that wasn't right will get corrected as the minimap tells you all the info, so what you thought from the start is rarely what you'll end up doing for more than 2-3 minutes before shifting focus to something different. Stubbornness kills game potential all the time, and so does greed. If something doesn't look favourable, why run straight into it? It's Chess (with some roulette thanks to god almighty SerB) and not CS:GO. The clutch potential in this game is so incredibly low that you're simply better off doing nothing than doing something bad, especially when you're playing against tanks that are most likely stronger than yours. Gameplay has sped up quite a bit in just a year as I personally feel the average battle time has gone down by at least 45 seconds (probably a minute) but you still have plenty of time to rethink and make a different move on whatever new info you got. This is why full on aggression doesn't work; it's blind. Obviously in situations where you're supposed to be outmatched you need to play more passively because mistakes end up more dangerous.

 

I'll take the 110 for a few examples since it's a tank that's been an issue for many people lately:
Bottom tier as 3-5-7 on Serene Coast, south spawn:

You're useless, right? You can't fight heavies on the peninsula because your pen is lacking, and C1 is a gamble that's seemingly 50/50 (which is why I've stopped going there almost completely regardless of the tank I play). Both main areas aren't great situations for you no matter what happens. C1 is probably the best bet here but your mediums are going to outpace you both in mobility and DPM so what you'll end up doing is mostly useless driving if they win it, and if they don't then you're committed and 100% going to die also doing close to nothing. The odd game where it stalemates and you might be able to use your armour a bit might happen but is that really something you're going to commit to? The stars aligning? Of course not. Stay passive. I normally end up redlining with the TDs. You can't really impact either of these situations directly but what you can do is simply getting whatever free shots you can, and think about the progression. Where's your team winning vis-a-vis losing? Just after 2 minutes your options should open up much better. I normally end up crossing down into the bowl only to drive up as I see that my team most likely end up winning C1. I'm now ahead for the next situation and while there's damage I lost out on, I'm now in a much better position to keep up. TD shots should open up either through myself or through the mediums closing in. Afterwards you're better positioned to deal with whatever tanks are left. It might not be a great game, but as a tier 8 in a tier10 game even 2000 damage games that are considered low for the tryhards is still more than alright. I can personally attest to that settling for safer plays that don't net you as much will help you in the long run. Risky plays rarely work out 100% the way you wanted so just don't push the odds.

 

If they don't win it then I'm still in a much better position to react, because I'm not dead. Simple as that. Then it's all about figuring out where you can go, the game is likely to be lost because C1 was lost. However the everything to win mentality is a bit stupid, as a tier 8 on that area you're really not going to make much of a difference regardless of player skill. I'm not saying that you should accept the loss, but if they're going to win that flank then why give your tank away as well?

 

Bottom tier 5-10 on Steppes, south spawn:
Once again, you're going to struggle and pen the heavies on the 1-2 line. The main decider will be what you'll think will come out of the east engagement, if you're likely to win it then you should commit to it. It gives tons of area control and usually ends up winning the map (just as C1 on Serene Coast) so it's obviously important, but the same thing applies here. If the odds are stacked against you then don't go there. Simple as that. The progression on Steppes especially makes it really hard to come back once you've lost areas, or really defending anywhere, so just reinforce wherever your chances are the greatest of winning. 1-2 isn't as good for winning, but it's not without enough terrain to allow you to fight it, you're stuck with a slower fight against tougher targets but your chances of winning and having progression from there on instead of a burning wreckage are still better off with you alive. I can't really help with the progression because it's different every game. If that doesn't work out either then why not just camp it. If I see 2 minutes in and that the enemy mediums have completely control over 9-0 already and that might my team is losing the heavy lane I'm going to drive up the K-line and redline like a piece of crapbecause that's about as useful I can be. Playing for the win is stupid when you don't have the factors to go through with it, you're going to basically throw yourself away for nothing anyway. With a score of let's say 1-8 and you should be running full chai redline mode in pretty much anything already. You still have a decent chance of increasing your damage output for that game as long as you're alive and uncommitted, but the second you commit somewhere where you're likely to lose you've basically just decided to add to the bonfire of what used to be your team.

 

On the other hand, if you actually have a winning progression (unlikely that this is the common problem) then passivity is the worst thing you can do. Even as a bottom tier. The second you have teammates to work with and tanks to outplay through terrain, vision or through numbers then the second you're not there you're going to lose out. I personally have this issue because I'm so focused on minimizing my losses rather than maximize my profits. Basically the shittier your tank is for the MM and map the more important it is to know where you have to be well ahead of time so you actually be there and capitalize.

 

 

  • Playing bad tanks

Similar to playing bottom tier, coming from an inferior position into an engagement means you’ll have to cut corners. Minmaxing really disappears when your tank won’t really let you play what you’re comfortable with. Obvious example is the Churchill GC, considered as one of the worst tanks in the game. You have two workable attributes but everything else is worse than pretty much every tank you’re going to face. So how do you use it effectively?

 

In this particular case your gun is the one trait where you really excel compared to your teammates. You have very high penetration and some gun handling + depression to help with poking. Where are you useful? This is as simple as it gets, basically as long as you’re in a position to keep shooting you’re going to be useful because your gun is potent. The drawback is that you can’t just yolo in, you have no armour and you’re slow so if they can shoot back at you then you’ll not be able to shoot for very long. Snipe it out. Move up accordingly when you can progress and you can probably move up to 2nd line when you have info. Playing safe in a tank like this is all the more important because once you’re in over your head your mobility and armour won’t be able to help you bail out. What you need to accept is that you probably won’t be able to hold your standards and go in with a decently open mindset. Your capabilities of good games are lower than normal so frustration from a poor tank just adds to the fire that is a tilt from all the other circumstances as teammates, RNG, artillery and whatever else. Identify what your tank is good at and try to utilize that strength at all costs because you can’t really be effective any other way. If your gun is your only good asset then I recommend that you stay back, and if you’re in a tank who is only considered armoured to same tiers and below (O-Ni) then you simply have to give up the map control. You can’t fight tier 9 heavies at all, so why bother? Rely on info and find tanks you can actually bully and take it from there. Once the map opens up at a bit more you have a lot more options so you just going to places where you can actually fight without getting outtraded 3 to 1 is a really good start. Armour is very relative from game to game pretty much regardless of the tank you play so when the odds are stacked against you trying to use it is pointless. Play against tanks you know you have an advantage against, whether it’s numbers, HP, skill, terrain and so on. Seize the opportunities as they come, because you’re at a disadvantage from the start meaning you have to find ways to level the playing field before being able to engage and actively contribute to winning games even in the most awful of tanks.

 

  • Playing general tanks

There’s a general playstyle that most top players try and adapt most tanks to, it should follow the meta very well and there’s a lot of tanks that play very similarly in the broad sense and only really differ in certain situations, even though their armour, HP, DPM and alpha might be different. What is probably the most important here is the mobility, as in you want to know where you can be at what times, a lot of tanks luckily move at around 50km/h at tier 10 so you can normally get to the positions you’d want to in another tank. Russian mediums, heavies and chinese ones share a lot of traits together. You can play them almost identically in a macro sense but where the good players really stand out is in the micro play here. All tanks generally have at least one unique trait to their combo of stats (IS-7 has it’s turret, M48 has on the move handling, russian mediums have their DPM and so on) so the doing the small things really matter. An IS-7 benefits from hulldown much more than any tank in the game because it’s almost invincible until pushed, but place a 140 there and it’ll be the same thing. Not because of it’s turret but because of the fact that it can dish out much more damage instead, at the risk of taking damage. Similarities arise and using them to recognise a playstyle that you’re familiar with means a lot and by doing so you’re going to be more seasoned in what you’re likely to be able to accomplish. Just by recognising traits that should work out similarly even though they might be different in other situations (IS-7 is for example much better at tanking hits, and can initiate pushes much better, where a 140 really need teammates to snowball with in a push) will help you play much better. Recognising where they differ and being able to swap in to a committed play that is good for your specific tank from a general play will make you an even better one. By learning this and being able to do it well you’re going to win much more. If there’s a situation where you recognise that you can commit to it’ll help your team much more, and you’ll develop some confidence in your micro ability along the way. Macro play takes much longer to learn, but it’s something that should already be on good progress because it’s something that happens every game. Playing mostly mediums/fast heavies help with learning this, as they’re the ones that are the most similar. A Maus and an IS-7 also share traits so there’s something you can draw from having played the one to the other, and so on and so on until you’ve developed a decent ability and a general sense of macro play as a whole. 

 

  • Playing specialized tanks

For this I recommend you throw everything above out the window, because while playing very niché tanks it won’t work. Autoloaders and turretless TDs are the most common ones, as they simply can’t play as a single shot and turreted tank. So how do you get around it? As with anything else, identify what your tank is good at and know your limits. If you have no experience with what you're playing then it's going to be a rough ride because you'll misplay constantly. Being turretless means you want as slow games as possible in long lanes where you can keep being effective no matter if the enemy team is pushing or falling back, and with relatively low risk of getting punished. Some maps have these spots and they're broken. It's ideal for a turretless TD but it's also horrible for gameplay because it requires zero effort. On the maps where you actually need to have a brain to really be effective then you have to create crossfires and long lanes on your own. No matter how the game's progressing there's usually a position you could be in that would have shots, and with limited gun arcs you need to see these things coming. A slow push from heavies will net a T10 TD two shots, meaning anywhere from 1000 to 2000 damage, so being there and ready for it is the most important part about it. If you're playing far back already then you can keep falling back and make those two shots into three or four, and that damage should matter and hopefully contribute to a closer game. TDs are the most useful on the losing end, and so their snowball ability is low along with their carry potential, but what they're really good at is stalling and counters so I really suggest that this is something you do often. There are a lot of useless TD players, and most of them are simply clueless but there's something to the passive gameplay that helps TDs since playing close up mean that if a tank gets on your side there's very little you can do to retaliate. Playing far back and low risk is the only way to really ensure your safety, but what differs the good from the bad is that you're hopefully going to play in the right places. Generally TDs work much better on a losing flank than a winning one, so trying to lock down the losing lane rather than help to push the winning one should be a much better option, even if you're going to die eventually. In blitz play this becomes more complicated as you can't be effective for very long unless you have teammates around you that make you hard to push, and so your options are reduced to either going on the lemming train or staying at the back of it. From there on it's really just a matter of preference and what comfort. I personally like to move up because camping is boring, and it can certainly work out but most times I'm sure the defensive play would have been the better one. 

 

Stalling an enemy push lets your team gain map control and lets the game progress everywhere around you but where you're currently locking down, that's the ideal situation for a TD and how to benefit from upsides that come with downside of being turretless. 

 

When it comes to autoloaders it's a bit nicer however, as you're normally decently mobile and it lets you macro like normal. But once it comes to actually engaging it's totally different as playing an autoloader means you have to be the most selfish piece of crapwherever you engage. Don't take hits. You're biggest asset is your clip and if your team keeps you alive you can keep capitalizing on every situation much better than your teammates can. They've got the edge on macro play and for slower games but when it comes to a head on engagement you're going to shave off enemy HP much faster than anyone else, a result of your teammates taking the hits for you so you can speed up the engagement and increase your chances of a positive outcome. I'm not even joking as in if you can't trade at least triple what you'll take then it is not a good engagement in an autoloader. You run constant risk of getting rushed whenever on reload and you have serious downtime where your teammates can catch up, especially if you're moving for crossfires and get caught in mid reload before getting into position. Your HP should be an asset of getting an extra shot off for taking a hit, or for moving in for better positioning but you shouldn't take hits that teammates could have. Your tank has more value and as the game progresses it becomes more dangerous. An autoloader in a game where it's just 7v7 left means a lot less area control mean movement and ability to single out targets come by much more often. Autoloaders excel at this because once you get to these situations there's very little one can do against an autoloader with a full clip, your going to take the damage and the odds are that you won't deal nearly as much in return. In the case of BC25t it's very likely that you're not full HP anymore and that it'll be able to clip you out and kill you for very little damage taken in return. So stay alive, don't take hits and hit your shots. Autoloaders are generally described as hard to play but they really aren't. They're different but the gameplay basically boils down to the same as it always does; how good you are at reading the engagements and knowing where to be. Once you get the hang of that then anything should click with you once you're comfortable enough to factor in your tank into that as well. 

 

 

  • Digging out a camp 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/188016992
Here's a pretty good example. I'll walk you through the entire thing,
First off, reading the map and MM. The team comps are really standard and shouldn't really be an issue. Most likely some idiot will be left alone on the the west side of the river like normal so there should be some damage to farm there. But there's not. What's important however is that the enemy team skipped out on pushing the 9-0 and just went straight to middle. That IS-7 is really hard to dig out without arty in the game and pretty much denies my normal play on the map (win west, cross mid and play outside the 9-0 line for a solid win) so we're currently stuck. I don't know what to do. What's good however is that while we can't really do anything, the enemy team's not exactly doing anything but baby steps either. TVP is staying passive, so is the JgPz, Tortoise is obviously going to die for free and so is the Mod1 as they're both way too exposed and easy to shoot once 9-0 is won. This does leave me some time in the north to just wait it out and see what shots I have, only 2 minutes have passed. Patience paid off. VKB pokes side out so I can do something productive while the IS-7 is currently winning the game for the enemy team. I pay a lot of attention to that IS-7 because if he dies then we can still win this. At this time the CDC and 12 t finally crossed over. So I have to go back. We're stuck on our side and can't let them get control of that. Thankfully the T25 Pilot is doing gods work and deny them the area. 
Here's where the magic happens: I now have a play where I can finally cross over, grant my team vision without any real danger. TVP is camping, IS-7 is in middle and the JGPZ is most likely defending the base. The amount of tanks that are actually here are limited so this is a risk I can take. 215b is following which is helpful. Their camp is now broken. I have an angle on their IS-7 now that he can't really get out of. I waste some of my HP to get him out. But he's down. The camp is broken. My team can cross over now. The kicker is that it took too long. The IS-7 bought them so much time that we have a minute to clean out 5 tanks. Never going to happen. Especially after the JgPz pins me down. He goes down eventually but it's also costing the only time I have to work with. This is an issue with assault games in general, but I picked this one because the real play is pretty easy to spot, and identifying a problem and then doing what's necessary to try and solve it. This was obviously getting that IS-7 down. It obviously took too long to do it, but the reason it worked is because of the information I had to work with that wouldn't have been available beforehand. I would've run into a 12 t and a CDC, most likely wound up killed by the two french autoloader heavies. 
When it comes to digging out a camp you need to find where you can press so hard that it'll break. It's a camp after all so you should have plenty of time doing so considering that enemy team is generally not going to move anywhere. Information that is 2 minutes old is most likely still pretty accurate. You just need to think past the first engagement. I knew I was going to fight tanks crossing over, maybe even take damage. I knew I had to to get sideshots on the IS-7 because no one else did, and this game it was what broke the camp by denying the enemy team the vision of middle so we could close in. Every camp has a flaw, use the time and their passivity to your favour and find it. It's there somewhere. 

 

That’s all for now. Thanks for reading,

Yung

 

If you have any questions regarding this, or similar questions when it comes to the metagame I'd be happy to help you out as well as I can. These things can be tricky but are ultimately what make you a better player in the end. 



Kalashnikova_blyat #2 Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:24 AM

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what a nice story bro...

K_A #3 Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:36 AM

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Spoiler

 



yun9 #4 Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:46 PM

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View PostK_A, on 01 December 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I don’t expect them to do anything. If you’re a player with the IQ of either of those then this won’t apply anyway. Having some grasp of metagame is required to understand this in the first place. It’s not very hard to follow either. Wotlabs got through the post just fine without any issues



etody77 #5 Posted 01 December 2017 - 01:06 PM

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Playing tier 8 HT, driving how you said, meet the mighty tier 10, what can i do? :) BTW, 110 is not so a bad tier 8 HT, 

SlyMeerkat #6 Posted 01 December 2017 - 01:16 PM

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Very helpful, thanks

yun9 #7 Posted 01 December 2017 - 01:53 PM

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View Postetody77, on 01 December 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

Playing tier 8 HT, driving how you said, meet the mighty tier 10, what can i do? :) BTW, 110 is not so a bad tier 8 HT, 

 

It’s been subject to powercreep and it’s one of the few T8 HTs that really struggle due to how it plays. It was an issue for a lot of my friends so I decided to pick that one. 

 

If you run into T10s you’ve anticipated them wrong. As of now you can only face 3 so guessing where they should be depending on their tank is considerably easier. Rethink your gameplay and why that tank went there; and think up of a solution to prevent it from happening again. Sometimes it’s just bad luck or stupid play on the opposing end but you should always have a backup to prevent it from just destroying you.



etody77 #8 Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:03 PM

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View Postzlxzllzllxlzllxlzlx, on 01 December 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

It’s been subject to powercreep and it’s one of the few T8 HTs that really struggle due to how it plays. It was an issue for a lot of my friends so I decided to pick that one. 

 

If you run into T10s you’ve anticipated them wrong. As of now you can only face 3 so guessing where they should be depending on their tank is considerably easier. Rethink your gameplay and why that tank went there; and think up of a solution to prevent it from happening again. Sometimes it’s just bad luck or stupid play on the opposing end but you should always have a backup to prevent it from just destroying you.

 

Depends on map an which tier 10 HT are inthe enemy team. 110 has a little better accuracy than is-3, for example, you can shoot weakspots.

Anxter_ #9 Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:21 PM

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I very much disagree on the "full aggression is blind" part. That's only partly true, but you have the team set-ups from the start. Meaning you can make a reasonable estimate where the average pubbie will go and where they should go to counter your team effectively and make a calculated risk down to those 2 factors. It's the tiny things like reaching C-1 on serene coast and noticing you have the overmatch because they didn't dedicate and just pushing it. If all you did was think "oh crapI'm bottom tie I need to hang back" you might've missed an easy opportunity to get some map control as a shitty bottom tier.

 

There's more of those issues I have with the format you've put up. Because you've focused on putting a general way of playing up there with specific examples it looks like a general framework of decision making that will lead to mistakes if some random forumite reads it and adheres to it fully. I mean, yeah you generally do play a bottom tier tank more passive than a top tier tank, but there's nothing that should stop you from pushing an advantage if it's apparent. You alone might not be able to deal with that 907 in your pershing, but with a tier 10 med helping you that changes. 1 on 1 or on certain flanks you just feature as cannon fodder, but if you support the right flank you can still pose a threat.



dimethylcadmium #10 Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:00 PM

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View Postzlxzllzllxlzllxlzlx, on 01 December 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

If you run into T10s you’ve anticipated them wrong.

 

From my experience, many times the top 3 tier 10's on both teams will go hunt lower tiers for wn8 padding. That's why almost all my 3/5/7 battles end up with one of the 3 tier 10s racking up a High Caliber / 3k+++ damage

 

or one side gets complete vegetables and the enemy tier 10s are unicums that are not afraid to go full gold mode


Edited by dimethylcadmium, 01 December 2017 - 04:00 PM.


ZlatanArKung #11 Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:40 PM

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View Postzlxzllzllxlzllxlzlx, on 01 December 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

It’s been subject to powercreep and it’s one of the few T8 HTs that really struggle due to how it plays. It was an issue for a lot of my friends so I decided to pick that one. 

 

If you run into T10s you’ve anticipated them wrong. As of now you can only face 3 so guessing where they should be depending on their tank is considerably easier. Rethink your gameplay and why that tank went there; and think up of a solution to prevent it from happening again. Sometimes it’s just bad luck or stupid play on the opposing end but you should always have a backup to prevent it from just destroying you.

Many maps have so few fighting areas (like 2 corridors) that you will either have the choice of trying to win by fighting Top tiered tanks while helping your top tiered tanks, or not fight at all.

Like Steppes, Himmelsdorf, charkov, Stalingrad  (completely random), Ensk, Mountain Pass, Abbey etc.

 

Once really on like Prokhorovka, Redshire and Sand River can you avoid top tiered tanks abs still be more or less useful.

 

 

 



K_A #12 Posted 01 December 2017 - 06:38 PM

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View Postzlxzllzllxlzllxlzlx, on 01 December 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

 

I don’t expect them to do anything. If you’re a player with the IQ of either of those then this won’t apply anyway. Having some grasp of metagame is required to understand this in the first place. It’s not very hard to follow either. Wotlabs got through the post just fine without any issues

 

Yea I read it and it had some good points for me too :) Especially that M48 battle, even though the music was God-awful, watching it through was eye-opening as to just how much more flexible one can and should be during a battle. I'm at the stage where I'm able to recognize when my flank fails and will fall back and regroup accordingly, but when my flank is going okay I'll most times just push that and be completely oblivious to a better opportunity and angle of attack on the other side of the battlefield. 

Edited by K_A, 01 December 2017 - 06:38 PM.


Maj_Solo #13 Posted 01 December 2017 - 06:53 PM

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when I am bottom tier I am lower in the food chain. These days I dont grind anylonger. I drink beer and play arty. And then I play a lot of Löwe and T34. So I meet a lot of tier 10s. Everybody can pen me. In T34 I load gold and pretend I am a tier 9 or 10 low fire rate assault vehicle. In Löwe I load gold and follow our friendly T57 heavy and let them shoot me instead of him.

If MM gave me craptop tiers there is not much I can do if that T57 starts to bounce and dont have the brain to shoot prem. I am GOING DOWN we r f*ed.

 

There is NOTHING you can do when lower tier. MM rules.

 

I had 100% more to write but I forgot it. Which means I am soft in the head enough to actually login and play this game.

"When you are low tier do this ..... "    ..... jeez, why dont you write something about "when you are low tier and your top tiers are crap" :)

 



mathwat #14 Posted 01 December 2017 - 08:55 PM

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OP can I ask why you re-rolled for?

yun9 #15 Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:34 PM

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View Postetody77, on 01 December 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

 

Depends on map an which tier 10 HT are inthe enemy team. 110 has a little better accuracy than is-3, for example, you can shoot weakspots.

 

But your drawback is a lot worse sidearmour, worse alpha, worse bloom, pen and armour profile for a little bit better accuracy and DPM that you're not going to be able to utilize fully as a tier 8 anyway. The 110 gameplay was rivaled by the Patriot because it has the same mobility, same amount of turret armour and then it starts excelling in almost every area except for alpha. It took the role of heavium away from it, and with significantly better tier 10s and 9s than before this was introduced your ability to actually deal with uptier tanks in a 110 is currently much lower than any other T8 HT. Basically only rivaled by some of the worse T8 mediums in uptier inability

 

View PostAnxter_, on 01 December 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

I very much disagree on the "full aggression is blind" part. That's only partly true, but you have the team set-ups from the start. Meaning you can make a reasonable estimate where the average pubbie will go and where they should go to counter your team effectively and make a calculated risk down to those 2 factors. It's the tiny things like reaching C-1 on serene coast and noticing you have the overmatch because they didn't dedicate and just pushing it. If all you did was think "oh crapI'm bottom tie I need to hang back" you might've missed an easy opportunity to get some map control as a shitty bottom tier.

 

There's more of those issues I have with the format you've put up. Because you've focused on putting a general way of playing up there with specific examples it looks like a general framework of decision making that will lead to mistakes if some random forumite reads it and adheres to it fully. I mean, yeah you generally do play a bottom tier tank more passive than a top tier tank, but there's nothing that should stop you from pushing an advantage if it's apparent. You alone might not be able to deal with that 907 in your pershing, but with a tier 10 med helping you that changes. 1 on 1 or on certain flanks you just feature as cannon fodder, but if you support the right flank you can still pose a threat.

 

Aggression from the get-go is blind. Just that you're making any sort of decisive play with a risk without any info whatsoever is a huge risk. If you feel like taking that risk is worthwhile then go ahead, but it cannot ever be a calculated one unless it's impossible for you to be wrong which is rare. Taking hill on Mines is one of those things; it's great to do and probably well worth a try, but the odds of you just dying increases more and more with the amount of enemy fast tanks and doesn't really decrease at the same rate with the amount you have vis-a-vis theirs. Unless the risk is so low that you're absolutely sure that you will be able to get up the hill safely without risking too much and without a contest to it, it's not something I will do. I'll focus on dealing with them getting it rather than trying to go for it and dying in the process. 

 

I'd much rather play with patience, if they take the hill then that's fine. North side has hill bias so the odds are slightly greater that they'll win it btw. My focus will be on on the direct middle outside of the hill, wear that down enough so I can now push the hill with all the info I need and come from a position of reason and calculations, where I may not hold all the cards, but I know what they are and have that leg to stand on. Playing aggressive is great, but doing it entirely through speculation and no concrete information is dangerous. The odds of being able to win the middle area and then try and push the hill might not be the greatest, but it beats the diceroll of having your tank dead in a minute with no power to influence the rest of the game. Midgame is really where a lot of opportunities open up as people rotate and push, if you're not there for it then you cannot strongarm the game into the outcomes you want it to. If your death gives your team the hill but the people taking it are useless, then what good what is it really for? As long as you can't rely on teammates to have your back when trying something risky then it comes to chance again and absolutely not something you ever want to commit to wholeheartedly. The only way to ensure that you can keep influencing your team in a positive way that hopefully ends up being a decisive factor is through information. 

 

This doesn't mean camping/redlining though, just not committing quite so deep until you know that it's in your favour. There are so many different things that can happen that skew you off from the enemy lineup, it's not before a few get spotted that you can get a general sense of how the areas are going to play out against your own team, and that's when you can start making real moves.

 

View Postdimethylcadmium, on 01 December 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

 

From my experience, many times the top 3 tier 10's on both teams will go hunt lower tiers for wn8 padding. That's why almost all my 3/5/7 battles end up with one of the 3 tier 10s racking up a High Caliber / 3k+++ damage

 

or one side gets complete vegetables and the enemy tier 10s are unicums that are not afraid to go full gold mode

 

I guess your experience comes from the opposing end? I personally don't hunt "anyone". I play favourable situations, and if they aren't I'll go through some more trouble to try and make them that way. I obviously can't speak for others regarding this, but this type of statement has never been said by the friends I have in the game. Lower tiers are an easy farm, but they're also completely ignoring the fact that they're playing a tier 8 vs a tier 10 and expect things to play out as normal despite their huge disadvantage in the first place. Depending on your tank, the enemy tanks and your positioning with your team composition and early team deployment you should be able to ballpark your best odds are. Take Tundra as an example, bottom tier T-44. Almost as useful as a beating someone to death with a pillow right?. You have no armour and not a very useful gun either, and there's really only on general area you can play because it's where the other mediums will go and that's a bunch of tanks you can actually pen. Now if the enemy has two T10 meds this immediately changes because even if your team takes the hill there's no way you can fight them and come out victorious without your team, and since the push from the hill is slow I recommend rotating. At this point you should know if tanks are one the 1-2 line, if the 3line is contested and how the game looks in general. This is much more information that you can utilize, even though you aren't very useful fighting heavies on that area you're still on a more flexible area with better opportunities to actually get shots on tanks that won't obliterate you in seconds from trying to play the hill. I'd personally end up on 3 line if it was open, try and see if anyone is camping back hard or if I can push fast and aggressive if my team wins the 1-2 flank, or simply if I can flank them if they're not doing too well. This is overly simplified but the gist of it is that being bottom tier doesn't mean a bad game, it just means that you can't play like you own the place. Relation to other tanks become much more important and only then is where T8s will find their way back despite the ongoing struggles. 

 

View PostZlatanArKung, on 01 December 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

Many maps have so few fighting areas (like 2 corridors) that you will either have the choice of trying to win by fighting Top tiered tanks while helping your top tiered tanks, or not fight at all.

Like Steppes, Himmelsdorf, charkov, Stalingrad  (completely random), Ensk, Mountain Pass, Abbey etc.

 

Once really on like Prokhorovka, Redshire and Sand River can you avoid top tiered tanks abs still be more or less useful.

 

 

 

 

. It's perfectly fine to fight top tier areas, but engaging them directly is where it starts getting bad for you. Unlikely that your armour will hold up too, so what you do is the same thing as above really. Get information to work with. A lot of areas have connecting areas that always go into play. Abbey has good winning progression, meaning reinforcing your teams backbone is fine because you can still be useful as a 2nd line because the progression from winning either of the two flanks is good, opening up many possibilities. As long as you have supporting teammates or simply tanking teammates then you're set for any tank that you can reasonably pen, and an advantage in numbers will shift the tide in your favour for some free damage. Kharkov is a personal dud for me, consider it the worst map in the game by a pretty large margin actually. But maps like Ensk and Mountain pass (that don't share the Abbey progression) still has plenty of possibilites.. The south area on mountain pass is pretty big and you have the standard pocket, but also a long firing line from the K-line that is workable from both sides. A hill with hulldown and the same hill that can give hard cover or hulldown depending on your flank. There's numerous ways to fight the same flank, and if you absolutely have to fight something your tank is clearly not capable to beat then try something else. There's always an opening, always a way to make something happen and you should have plenty of time to come by one even though you'll might need your team in the process. 

View PostK_A, on 01 December 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

 

Yea I read it and it had some good points for me too :) Especially that M48 battle, even though the music was God-awful, watching it through was eye-opening as to just how much more flexible one can and should be during a battle. I'm at the stage where I'm able to recognize when my flank fails and will fall back and regroup accordingly, but when my flank is going okay I'll most times just push that and be completely oblivious to a better opportunity and angle of attack on the other side of the battlefield. 

 

Yeah, very few people like my music and actually have me muted while watching the streams :D 

This is all about finding the right spot to press really, the IS-7 was so important to get out that it warranted a full rotation back to the south and fighting tanks there only to get the chance to shoot the IS-7 several minutes later. If the scenario of me getting a bit luckier and penning/connecting my shots on the IS-7 and leaving him on 800 or so this would have been a totally different game. Going for him directly would have been the better option for a real shot of winning the game. I'd eat a hit from him minumum, but I can kill him off reasonably fast and the middle position he's holding is much stronger than the one I took in the south. If things went this way then maybe this would have been a win. Who knows? I did my best to try and figure out what to do, and even though I did I still did it a bit too slow and it ultimately cost us a potential win. My teammates were garbage but just through making some better decisions on my end rather than blaming my oh so useless team for that loss it could have been different and was a learning experience that as well. Team was crapno matter how you put it, but still winnable. I do everything I can to win, this was something I failed at and something I could learn from instead of pinning the entire loss on the team, because I could have done better too. 

View PostMaj_Solo, on 01 December 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

when I am bottom tier I am lower in the food chain. These days I dont grind anylonger. I drink beer and play arty. And then I play a lot of Löwe and T34. So I meet a lot of tier 10s. Everybody can pen me. In T34 I load gold and pretend I am a tier 9 or 10 low fire rate assault vehicle. In Löwe I load gold and follow our friendly T57 heavy and let them shoot me instead of him.

If MM gave me craptop tiers there is not much I can do if that T57 starts to bounce and dont have the brain to shoot prem. I am GOING DOWN we r f*ed.

 

There is NOTHING you can do when lower tier. MM rules.

 

I had 100% more to write but I forgot it. Which means I am soft in the head enough to actually login and play this game.

"When you are low tier do this ..... "    ..... jeez, why dont you write something about "when you are low tier and your top tiers are crap" :)

 

 

Why would you ever expect anything from a teammate in the first place? It's random battles and people generally play their own game. Expecting them to do something you want to is only a source of frustration. If you think it's such an issue then re-read this. The last sentence there is basically what I actually wrote, because committing somewhere that you can lose out of player inability alone is bad and that you should think of something different. 

 

There are plenty of things you can do. MM does rule but not on its own. Meta and skill both play just as big of a part and those two are things that you can always use in your favour. If you just assume right off the bat that the T57 is bad and that he won't do the good things then you're going to be much better off. A much nicer happy surprise when someone does something genuinely useful. Tanking hits as bottom tier for a top tier with a player who you have no idea who it is and what his/her limits are is not a good way to enjoy tier 8. Play your game. See the game for what it is and don't try to make it into something it's not. The game really lacks in teamplay in randoms and while it's super fun when it works out well you can't rely on your teammate to do so, and expecting him to will cause a whole bunch of unnecesarry frustration. 

 

View Postmathwat, on 01 December 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

OP can I ask why you re-rolled for?

 

Yes, I don't mind. 

 

My old nickmane is Yung_xD. I never rerolled for stats, I was already superunicum with top 10 3 marked tanks on the server. I originally rerolled for the sake of boredom. I was unemployed and out of stuff to grind, I had all the marks on the tanks I wanted to and since my acc was so butchered by my early days I thought it made sense. I want to get good DPGs, win a lot. Solo. Try real hard for a 70% solo winrate (I achieved it, but in quite OP tanks like 907 and E 50) and compete in that aspect. I have fun tryharding in this game and pushing myself to the limits of becoming a better player constantly. So since I was going to play this game anyway, enjoy grinding and wanted to get rid of my 12000 games of terrible in T10 mediums to actually tryhard in them with some pressure I decided to do it. It's been about 7 months in and I can't really say I regret it yet. Now I have a full time job and other hobbies so I play a bit less but the goal for me in this game is still to challenge myself to become better, constantly. Rerolling might not help to that end but I've honestly enjoyed the regrind outside of the stock crews. 

 



mathwat #16 Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:47 PM

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That makes sense I can see you’re are a very good player, was just wondering why someone would. 

Anxter_ #17 Posted 02 December 2017 - 05:53 PM

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View Postzlxzllzllxlzllxlzlx, on 01 December 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

Aggression from the get-go is blind. Just that you're making any sort of decisive play with a risk without any info whatsoever is a huge risk. If you feel like taking that risk is worthwhile then go ahead, but it cannot ever be a calculated one unless it's impossible for you to be wrong which is rare. Taking hill on Mines is one of those things; it's great to do and probably well worth a try, but the odds of you just dying increases more and more with the amount of enemy fast tanks and doesn't really decrease at the same rate with the amount you have vis-a-vis theirs. Unless the risk is so low that you're absolutely sure that you will be able to get up the hill safely without risking too much and without a contest to it, it's not something I will do.

 

Funny how you claimed one thing and then proved my point later on. The hill example you named is a perfect one for a calculated risk. You can count the number of tanks that have a chance at taking it in the countdown and from there decide whether it's possible and how likely you are to win it. That's an almost textbook calculated risk from one of the most "blind" situations you'll get in this game. 

 

What I meant it's very possible to decide on an aggressive gameplan by virtue of tank set-ups and then decide how far you can actually push based on the number of tanks following you, the enemy tanks getting spotted and more importantly the ones that aren't getting spotted. Pubbies and most maps are predictable in such a way that if they haven't gone to corridor A then they'll be at corridor B. The only maps you can't make such judgements on are the retarded ones like stalingrad, where you literally can't do anything aggressive without a 14 tank blob behind you, because the enemy might have a 14 tank blob that's camping right where you push.

 

Block Quote

 This doesn't mean camping/redlining though, just not committing quite so deep until you know that it's in your favour. There are so many different things that can happen that skew you off from the enemy lineup, it's not before a few get spotted that you can get a general sense of how the areas are going to play out against your own team, and that's when you can start making real moves.

 

I think we literally mean the same thing as in going somewhere and then seeing what happens in the time between us driving from spawn and getting there to decide how far to push. That isn't immediately obvious in the OP, yet it's a very important detail that I don't think will be caught by many players for which this guide was meant.



yun9 #18 Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:51 PM

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View PostAnxter_, on 02 December 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

 

Funny how you claimed one thing and then proved my point later on. The hill example you named is a perfect one for a calculated risk. You can count the number of tanks that have a chance at taking it in the countdown and from there decide whether it's possible and how likely you are to win it. That's an almost textbook calculated risk from one of the most "blind" situations you'll get in this game. 

 

What I meant it's very possible to decide on an aggressive gameplan by virtue of tank set-ups and then decide how far you can actually push based on the number of tanks following you, the enemy tanks getting spotted and more importantly the ones that aren't getting spotted. Pubbies and most maps are predictable in such a way that if they haven't gone to corridor A then they'll be at corridor B. The only maps you can't make such judgements on are the retarded ones like stalingrad, where you literally can't do anything aggressive without a 14 tank blob behind you, because the enemy might have a 14 tank blob that's camping right where you push.

 

 

I think we literally mean the same thing as in going somewhere and then seeing what happens in the time between us driving from spawn and getting there to decide how far to push. That isn't immediately obvious in the OP, yet it's a very important detail that I don't think will be caught by many players for which this guide was meant.

 

You can take the hill about 8/10 times and die the other two through odds of winning it in your favour (at least in my experience), my point is that if you don't but play the middle and instead focusing on winning the middle first by wearing them down you'll end up with a much better prospect to take the hill back and take it without punish, only having to fight what you know is there. People on the hill get lit all the time so the HP up there should be much easier to account for and normally lower than it would be fighting them at the start. 

 

Those 2 times out of 10 are enough to make me not want to do it. Almost every single team I'm in on Mines ends up taking the hill anyway since that's the area I always play for, maybe we lose it at the start but I'd much rather push into the hill and knowing what's there than try to seize the area as people are engaging it. I want consistency in my games and dying right at the start is a sure way to kill it. If you actually fight the middle instead of the hill and win it then the hill lost almost all its effectiveness. With a weak middle the tanks will stop poking, the TDs at the back won't get targets and slower armoured tanks can push onto the hill. Even if you can't actually push the hill after winning the middle it's still a good start and I personally would rather take it from there than ever dying to something so stupid like getting rammed and slowed down by an enemy tank while trying to cross up and end up taking 5 shots and barely surviving in the process. 

 

You also have the potential of your team taking the hill anyway without you, which is the ideal setup in my opinion. The hill is a much more important area to map control than it is to effectiveness in actually dealing out damage and influencing the rest of the map since it's controlling rotations and only really leaving the beach area without vision, but getting real damage out from the hill is much harder than playing the middle, and I'd rather have (what I consider) lesser teammates on the hill doing that work while I wear them down from another direction. As a calculated risk it's one that I still find too risky, unless the enemy teams are literally without any fast tanks that I'm not guaranteed to not only beat up the hill but also be able to outplay on the hill without losing any significant amount of HP means that the times where I feel confident and safe in taking that area are few. Maybe it's for the worse, I can't confirm or deny it, but it does keep me in control of my own engagement by leaving as little room as possible for early death.

 

The hill is still the key area to this map and generally the one to fight for, but doing it the way I'm suggesting works universally for all turreted tanks and with good awareness it's likely for you to be able to cross to the hill later on anyway, even if the middle isn't won yet. Time reloads, check minimap for people at the rock/ditch depending on your spawn and wait for their heavies to be behind the first corner and you'll cross up for free with much less risk of getting hit. 

 

Edit: I've found some decent spots on Stalingrad lately if you want them, I'd have to go into a training room to show them since digging through the replays will be a mess XD


Edited by zlxzllzllxlzllxlzlx, 02 December 2017 - 06:54 PM.


TankkiPoju #19 Posted 02 December 2017 - 07:32 PM

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I would add my tips: 

 

If you can spare your hit points to endgame, you will be much more useful. For example every autoloader in the game becomes muuuch less dangerous once they are on very low health as they can't clip you anymore.

 

Always make the killing shots if you can. There is no such thing as kill stealing, make the kill every time if you can. If that means shooting a 5 hit point tank with a premium shell, do it.

Don't play bad tanks unless you really need to grind past them. Seriously, there is a reason why the guys from FAME don't play Tiger 2 or Black Prince :)



Homer_J #20 Posted 02 December 2017 - 08:57 PM

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View PostK_A, on 01 December 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Needs picshures.





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