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We urgently need a class tutorial.

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Derethim #1 Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:35 PM

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Please.

There is just such a large ammount of players playing their light tanks like heavies and I just can't watch. Especially when it's on my team.

But also when it's on the enemy team - sure, yay, free points, but it feels kinda' cheap and sad, like when you shoot some idling maggot.

 

If Wargaming decides to do a tutorial on classes one day, it should including things like passive and active scouting guide for light tanks, TD guide that teaches good bushkemp, but also corridor pushes with TDs like T95. I don't think anyone needs a tutorial on meds, because they can fullfill most of the roles (sniping, brawling, kempink), altough they usually tend to be used as flankers, or heaviums. And they need to teach the bobs on tier 5 how to angle their heavies and tell them about armor placement on most tanks, just please.



brumbarr #2 Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:38 PM

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No we dont, the last thing we need is more enforcement of roles.
What we need is a tutorial that teaches how to play to your strenghts. Or teaches how to play at all.

SuedKAT #3 Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:41 PM

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In this case I need to agree with brumbarr, just since a tank is classed as something don't mean it needs to be played like every other tank belonging to the same class. Edit: But yeah some better tutorials would be nice, however I've kinda given up on that seeing as most either don't want to learn or refuse to do so even when the information they needed to explain their situation is presented to them still refuse to believe anything but their own tinfoil theory.

Edited by SuedKAT, 08 December 2017 - 04:43 PM.


StinkyStonky #4 Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:50 PM

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There is a clan dedicated to this.  They even have a pinned thread in the Newcomers' forum.

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/545320-wot-university-training-sessions-for-everyone/

 

When I did their light training I was struggling to get the Stug PMs done.  Now I have all 30 up to LT15.2 done with honours.

 

The problem isn't that the training doesn't exist (there are endless tutorials), it's that lots of players can't be bothered to learn.



Dr_Oolen #5 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:01 PM

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I can give a simple tutorial right here right now.

 

- If your tonk has a gun and the situation in the game demands that you shoot enemy tonks or if you find yourself in a situation where using the gun brings significantly more risk to the enemy than you, you shoot the gun.

- If your tonk has enough armor or hitpoints making it more likely to survive enemy shots than your close by allies and the situation requires someone pushes/takes a shot in order to make a winning move, then you go in and get yourself shot.

- If your tonk happens to have a living commander and happens to be in a suitable area and happens to be of all present tanks the most likely to survive and provide some spotting in a situation that requires spotting, then you go do the spotting.

 

Hope this was/is helpful.


Edited by Dr_Oolen, 08 December 2017 - 05:01 PM.


Derethim #6 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:09 PM

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I'm sure most of you already know how to play, but

-not all players speak english and not all players have an active forum community for their language

-not all players are inteligent enough to seek help on forums, or they just don't give a crap

-forcing them, or luring them with a small gold sum to complete a class tutorial before they enter tier V makes even bobs into better players

-yes, classes don't dictate how a tank should be played, however, most tanks stay true to their class. Show me one heavily-armored light tank over tier V. And no, chinese turrets don't count.


Edited by Derethim, 08 December 2017 - 05:09 PM.


HundeWurst #7 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:14 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 08 December 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

No we dont, the last thing we need is more enforcement of roles.
What we need is a tutorial that teaches how to play to your strenghts. Or teaches how to play at all.

 

Which is pretty much impossible.

 

Most players ~90% will never be any good at the game. So lets forget about that, regardless of what kind of tutorials you throw at them.



ZlatanArKung #8 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:24 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 08 December 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

I can give a simple tutorial right here right now.

 

- If your tonk has a gun and the situation in the game demands that you shoot enemy tonks or if you find yourself in a situation where using the gun brings significantly more risk to the enemy than you, you shoot the gun.

- If your tonk has enough armor or hitpoints making it more likely to survive enemy shots than your close by allies and the situation requires someone pushes/takes a shot in order to make a winning move, then you go in and get yourself shot.

- If your tonk happens to have a living commander and happens to be in a suitable area and happens to be of all present tanks the most likely to survive and provide some spotting in a situation that requires spotting, then you go do the spotting.

 

Hope this was/is helpful.

Excellent advices, now I only have to figure out how to buy a tonk. I only find tanks in my garage :/



Dr_Oolen #9 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:26 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 08 December 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

I'm sure most of you already know how to play, but

-not all players speak english and not all players have an active forum community for their language

-not all players are inteligent enough to seek help on forums, or they just don't give a crap

-forcing them, or luring them with a small gold sum to complete a class tutorial before they enter tier V makes even bobs into better players

-yes, classes don't dictate how a tank should be played, however, most tanks stay true to their class. Show me one heavily-armored light tank over tier V. And no, chinese turrets don't count.

 

And how does having armor dictate the way you play? It doesnt at all, and thats the truth. At the end of the day every tanks purpose is to win the games. The games are won by doing more damage than you receive in key areas of the map. Spotting doesnt matter, bouncing shots doesnt matter. At the end of the day all youre doing in wot is trading favorably as a means of winning. The way the maps are TDs doing its "busch kemp redline" have zero influence on the outcome of the game most of the time and thus every TD is best used in the same positions heavies and meds would go, as long as those are the positions that are important. Same is with lights, driving randomly on some useless field doesnt win any games, going with the light tank and brawling in the same area as heavies/meds does. The maps and the balance are so fucked that all tanks are forced to play exactly the same game in exactly the same way if they want to be the most effective at winning games. At the end of the day the only difference then is that some tanks are better at that gameplay than others, but a light doing "scouting" all the time or td "redlining" all the time will always be worse at winning games that light or td brawling just like all the other tanks. You can thank the great developers for that.

cragarion #10 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:33 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 08 December 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

Please.

There is just such a large ammount of players playing their light tanks like heavies and I just can't watch. Especially when it's on my team.

But also when it's on the enemy team - sure, yay, free points, but it feels kinda' cheap and sad, like when you shoot some idling maggot.

 

If Wargaming decides to do a tutorial on classes one day, it should including things like passive and active scouting guide for light tanks, TD guide that teaches good bushkemp, but also corridor pushes with TDs like T95. I don't think anyone needs a tutorial on meds, because they can fullfill most of the roles (sniping, brawling, kempink), altough they usually tend to be used as flankers, or heaviums. And they need to teach the bobs on tier 5 how to angle their heavies and tell them about armor placement on most tanks, just please.

 

Don't need tutorials all we need is an IQ test before you are allowed to play.

clixor #11 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:42 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 08 December 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

 

And how does having armor dictate the way you play? It doesnt at all, and thats the truth. At the end of the day every tanks purpose is to win the games. The games are won by doing more damage than you receive in key areas of the map. Spotting doesnt matter, bouncing shots doesnt matter. At the end of the day all youre doing in wot is trading favorably as a means of winning. The way the maps are TDs doing its "busch kemp redline" have zero influence on the outcome of the game most of the time and thus every TD is best used in the same positions heavies and meds would go, as long as those are the positions that are important. Same is with lights, driving randomly on some useless field doesnt win any games, going with the light tank and brawling in the same area as heavies/meds does. The maps and the balance are so fucked that all tanks are forced to play exactly the same game in exactly the same way if they want to be the most effective at winning games. At the end of the day the only difference then is that some tanks are better at that gameplay than others, but a light doing "scouting" all the time or td "redlining" all the time will always be worse at winning games that light or td brawling just like all the other tanks. You can thank the great developers for that.

 

You are obviously in a cynical mood and that's fine. We all have these days, but you also win games by enabling your team to do better. And that means giving your team info on enemy deployment, lighting up targets etc.etc. obviously lights/meds are better than that than a Type4/5. (except when driving t95, because t95 doesnt give a crap ;))

 

And if you are a derp t49 sniping on the hill of karelia for instance i think some further explanation of camo/scouting/being useful is warranted.



fighting_falcon93 #12 Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:46 PM

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I agree that better ingame interactive tutorials are needed for the game so that more players can learn about the basic game mechanics. However, I think that it would be better if different roles had characteristics that made it very difficult to play them in the "wrong" way.

 

I can see the point that Brumbarr is making, but at the same time I think it's wrong that a LT goes into town to farm damage, and a TD that joins a brawl. This causes a clusterfu--, where 1 sector of the map contains 90% of the players, and all of them are not only fighting the enemy, but also each other for the "good" locations. A game like World of Tanks needs different roles that operate in different areas, it creates a much more dynamic battle.

 

Think something along these lines:

 

LT

Highly mobile recon tank that specializes in spotting and camo. It has a very bad penetration on its gun, but it can use special "call in" abilities like aircraft strafes and dive bombings. This class should be played on a medium distance and try to maintain unspotted.

Special features:

- Call-ins (ability): For example, Stuka dive bombing strikes, aircraft recon sweeps, or off-map artillery barrages.

- Turn off engine (toggle): Immobilizes the tank but gives a bonus to spotting and concealment. Disabling this ability has a delay.

 

MT

Combines mobility and firepower. Can take on pretty much any role of other classes, but isn't specialized in any of them. The prefered play style is to flank around the enemy and shoot them in the sides/back.

Special features:

- Deploy smoke screen (ability): Conceals your and allied vehicles for a limited time, allowing a safe retreat.

- Engine boost (toggle): Increases your power-to-weight ratio and top speed, at the cost of traverse speed (if you've played Battlefield 4, you know what I'm talking about).

 

HT

Heavy armor and heavy firepower. These tanks are extremely durable from the front, but lacks in mobility, camo and spotting. These tanks should occupy a strong position at the front and either defend it or push the frontline forward.

Special features:

- Repairs (ability): Restores a percentage of lost hitpoints. Limited use.

- Heavy armor (passive): Slightly shortens the reload of the next shell if the tank takes a shot that does no damage.

 

TD

Good firepower that specializes in destroying other tanks. This class is intended to provide fire support from a distance, and therefore has a "siege" mode. When this mode is activated, the TD can use its gun and benefit from amazing accuracy and reload speed.

Special features:

- Aircraft recon sweep (ability): A recon aircraft makes a single flyby and spots targets for the TD. 

- Siege-mode (toggle): Same as the Swedish TDs, but applied to all TDs. Greatly improves accuracy and reload speed.

 

SPG: Should be removed...

 

As always, the above is just my opinion :great:


Edited by fighting_falcon93, 08 December 2017 - 05:55 PM.


Joggaman #13 Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:03 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 08 December 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

I can give a simple tutorial right here right now.

 

- If your tonk has a gun and the situation in the game demands that you shoot enemy tonks or if you find yourself in a situation where using the gun brings significantly more risk to the enemy than you, you shoot the gun.

- If your tonk has enough armor or hitpoints making it more likely to survive enemy shots than your close by allies and the situation requires someone pushes/takes a shot in order to make a winning move, then you go in and get yourself shot.

- If your tonk happens to have a living commander and happens to be in a suitable area and happens to be of all present tanks the most likely to survive and provide some spotting in a situation that requires spotting, then you go do the spotting.

 

Hope this was/is helpful.

 

^^ see!!!

This is what separates those pesky unicums from us plebs. 



Dr_Oolen #14 Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:06 PM

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View Postfighting_falcon93, on 08 December 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

I agree that better ingame interactive tutorials are needed for the game so that more players can learn about the basic game mechanics. However, I think that it would be better if different roles had characteristics that made it very difficult to play them in the "wrong" way.

 

I can see the point that Brumbarr is making, but at the same time I think it's wrong that a LT goes into town to farm damage, and a TD that joins a brawl. This causes a clusterfu--, where 1 sector of the map contains 90% of the players, and all of them are not only fighting the enemy, but also each other for the "good" locations. A game like World of Tanks needs different roles that operate in different areas, it creates a much more dynamic battle.

Tonks being very different and being way better than others in specific areas is all cool and dandy. But in order for that to work there obviously have to be equal opportunities for all those gamestyles.

 

Or do you think that a light tank as described by you would get as much opportunity and benefit from its ability as a heavy? Yeah, thats what i thought. There are 2-4 maps (5-10% of all maps) on which such a light tank would actually be able to use its strengths. But thats already the case and the specializations of classes arent that extreme. Simply put on the maps we have now heavies in general have the best characteristics conducive to winning on 70% of maps/in70% of situations that matter. Meds maybe 20% but are, lets say, in 50% of situations only marginally worse than heavies. And lights/TDs are more useful for winning in maybe 5% of situations/maps each...

 

If you wanted all the tanks to be equally useful youd have to change all the maps to include areas that are somehow necessary to use to win a game while being open/large enough for lights and tds to use. How do you do that? Its quite simple, the only way to do that is to make sure that each area of the map can be influenced from outside of that area, like prokhorovka is. Hill can shoot middle, middle can shoot hill. Middle can shoot orrest, forest can shoot middle. In other words, for as long as this game is a game of corridors where "what happens in corridor A stays in corridor A", then the only useful class in the game will be the one tzhat benefits the most from being shot from only one direction.



brumbarr #15 Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:07 PM

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View Postfighting_falcon93, on 08 December 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

 

I can see the point that Brumbarr is making, but at the same time I think it's wrong that a LT goes into town to farm damage, and a TD that joins a brawl. This causes a clusterfu--, where 1 sector of the map contains 90% of the players, and all of them are not only fighting the enemy, but also each other for the "good" locations. A game like World of Tanks needs different roles that operate in different areas, it creates a much more dynamic battle.

 

Problem is that   that has nothing to do with people not being able to play their tanks,  it has to do with those being the best spots to win the battle.  

A light tank brawlign in the city isnt wrong when that position will give him more chance to win the game, same for TDs. Same for heavy tanks going to spot.

 

And I disagree strongly with your last sentence. Its completely the opposite. A game that has certain areas for every tank type and stronly defined classes that always need to go to their areas is not dynamic, thats boring and generic. Every battle is the same, WG thinks for you instead of you having to come up with a way to play the tank. 

 

 

As always, the above is just my opinion :great:

 

Atleast we agree on 1 thing :P

 



clixor #16 Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:17 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 08 December 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

Tonks being very different and being way better than others in specific areas is all cool and dandy. But in order for that to work there obviously have to be equal opportunities for all those gamestyles.

 

Or do you think that a light tank as described by you would get as much opportunity and benefit from its ability as a heavy? Yeah, thats what i thought. There are 2-4 maps (5-10% of all maps) on which such a light tank would actually be able to use its strengths. But thats already the case and the specializations of classes arent that extreme. Simply put on the maps we have now heavies in general have the best characteristics conducive to winning on 70% of maps/in70% of situations that matter. Meds maybe 20% but are, lets say, in 50% of situations only marginally worse than heavies. And lights/TDs are more useful for winning in maybe 5% of situations/maps each....

 

So how do you explain players that have 60%+ winrates in their lights? And is there really so much difference between say a leo1 and any other tier10 light. You play the supporting role.

 

Speaking of which, something like a amx 105 with full clip is something to fear for every tank. 

 

But that's not really the issue we are discussing. a light with 100% camo is something very different than a light with 75% crew. And a player in a tier8 light sitting stationary in front of a jpe100 is something no tutorial will solve. 



Dr_Oolen #17 Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:20 PM

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View Postclixor, on 08 December 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

 

So how do you explain players that have 60%+ winrates in their lights? And is there really so much difference between say a leo1 and any other tier10 light. You play the supporting role.

 

Speaking of which, something like a amx 105 with full clip is something to fear for every tank. 

 

But that's not really the issue we are discussing. a light with 100% camo is something very different than a light with 75% crew. And a player in a tier8 light sitting stationary in front of a jpe100 is something no tutorial will solve. 

 

Players get 60% wr in lights because they dont scout in them but go and contest exactly the same positions as they would in meds or heavies, while spamming full gold. The same players doing the same in heavies/meds would get 65% wr because meds and heavies are better at that. But still, as i already explained, doing brawling in a light will still win you more games than scouting. Doesnt mean that lights are good at it, it just means that scouting in a light tank (which is what its supposed to be good at, and it is better at it than other classes) is more useless than brawling in a light tank and if you want to win a game you go brawl in every single tank most of the time because most of the time brawling is what wins the game.

Edited by Dr_Oolen, 08 December 2017 - 06:29 PM.


ZlatanArKung #18 Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:27 PM

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View Postclixor, on 08 December 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

 

So how do you explain players that have 60%+ winrates in their lights? And is there really so much difference between say a leo1 and any other tier10 light. You play the supporting role.

 

Speaking of which, something like a amx 105 with full clip is something to fear for every tank. 

 

But that's not really the issue we are discussing. a light with 100% camo is something very different than a light with 75% crew. And a player in a tier8 light sitting stationary in front of a jpe100 is something no tutorial will solve. 

I have 60%+ WR in lights because I don't spot, but actually focus on fighting and killing, getting enemies killed instead of sitting in a bush hoping enemies will move into my view range, get spotted, and don't move back, or forward.



HundeWurst #19 Posted 08 December 2017 - 07:07 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 08 December 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

I have 60%+ WR in lights because I don't spot, but actually focus on fighting and killing, getting enemies killed instead of sitting in a bush hoping enemies will move into my view range, get spotted, and don't move back, or forward.

 

Yep. There are situations when spotting makes sense. However 90% of the time spotting as as usefull as a mans nipple for various reasons. Scouting can actually even be counterproductive on certain maps since it will make people basecamp... Sitting there with ther x25 zoom waiting for some spot because some light tank made a scoutrun early and then went somewhere else.

 

And Dr_Oolen is basically right. However I would like to add that besides maps and screwed up balance there is one more big player in the room: Game mechanics. Gold rounds would be the perfect example... Instead of flanking (a lot of efford and risk) why not just sit in front and load gold rounds. Now that is something you are forced to do currently since there is no flanking. However even if maps and balance would allow different playstyle for different classes mechanics would just say NOPE!.

So the classes are not the problem. Maps, balance and mechanics are however.



fighting_falcon93 #20 Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:17 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 08 December 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

Tonks being very different and being way better than others in specific areas is all cool and dandy. But in order for that to work there obviously have to be equal opportunities for all those gamestyles.

 

I completely agree with both of your sentences. In order for this to work, we need good maps where all classes can work together. Actually a lot of problems in this game is due to bad maps, for instance the whole armor and gold ammo issues also exists because of bad maps.

 

View Postbrumbarr, on 08 December 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

A light tank brawlign in the city isnt wrong

 

From a winrate perspective it isn't wrong, but from a game design perspective it's very wrong. That location is now occupied by a LT instead of a HT, a HT that could have done the job much better. And at the same time, the TDs outside the city sit in a bush and play with themselves because there's no LT spotting targets for them... he's busy penning HTs from the front in city!

 

^ See how messed up WoT class design is? They could just have removed the classes completely because they're not played in a certain way anyhow.

 

View Postbrumbarr, on 08 December 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

A game that has certain areas for every tank type and stronly defined classes that always need to go to their areas is not dynamic, thats boring and generic.

 

Why is it boring and generic? No one has forced you to only play a single class? If you play some battles as a LT, and you've had it with LT gameplay, you simply swap class, rather than picking LT again but playing it as a HT. This works perfectly fine in other games. For instance, in Battlefield, you don't pick sniper class and then run around trying to revive people like a medic, in fact you even can't because the sniper class has no defibrillator. 







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