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The light tier X tank WZ-132-1 is a better tank than the medium Leopard 1


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spuriousmonkey #1 Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:42 AM

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I am starting this topic off with a bold claim: The tier X WZ-132-1 is a better tank than the Leopard 1.

 

We all know the claim that tier X light tanks are underpowered and not as good as their medium counter parts. This would naturally also include one of the worst tier X medium tanks, the legendary Leopard 1. In real life the Leopard 1 was legendary for its capabilities. In WoT this tank is legendary for being underpowered. 

 

Still, when we objectively examine a comparison between the Leopard 1 and the WZ-132-1 it becomes obvious that the Leopard on paper is a better tank.

 

More HP. Better standard and premium ammo. Better gun handling. etc.

 

Yet here I come and claim that the tier X light tank is a better tank than the tier X medium.

 

How did I come to this hypothesis.

 

Well, I finally finished my first 100 games in the WZ-132-1. And if you look at my stats, you will not go...WOW. What an Unicum player. Au contraire. There is nothing seemingly special about those stats.

 

 

Except my Winrate.

 

I have absolutely no tier 10 tank which even comes close to this kind of winrate. In fact, I have no clue how to play tier X at all. 

 

Yet, every time I took the wz-132-1 out for a spin, I got more and more confident in its capabilities to contribute to a win. This wasn't the case at the start of the series. I started off well below 50% winrate in this tank. I can't remember what the exact low point was, but it was below 40% if I remember correctly. In the last 60 games I got a comfortable 75% Winrate.

 

But then I started to realize something. I don't need to be better than all those tier 10 medium, heavy and TD tanks out there to contribute to the outcome of the game. I just need to do the jobs that need to be done at tier X. Map control. Making sure the right targets are challenged and can deploy accordingly. Killing other light tanks. Being all over the map to fill in holes. etc.

 

It lifted some of the pressure of my shoulders. I don't need to do massive amounts of damage, like a Leopard 1 would need to do. The only thing I need to do is to be a better light tank driver than the enemy tier X light tank driver. That is all.

 

If you drive the Leopard 1 you need to be better than the enemy obj. 140 driver. Or the TVP. Or the batchat. Or the 907. Or the AX. Or the t62a. And that is a tough nut to crack.

 

I only need to be better than other light tanks who already suck. I am not claiming that the WZ-132-1 is the best tier X light tank. I personally think the Russian one might be better because I usually have the most trouble dealing with them in battles. Or maybe even the french one. They can mess you up. But the qualities of the WZ-132-1 are close enough to the best tier X light tanks to compete.

 

On a side note, it is a lot easier to influence the battle in a 3-5-7 MM distribution, compared to a full tier X MM distribution. I tend to be more careful and passive in full tier X games. 

---------------

In short, I am aware that 100 games isn't a lot. But then again I never managed to feel comfortable playing a tier 10 tank before. Maybe the moral of the story is that the tier X light tanks are better balanced than the tier X medium tanks. The Leopard 1 is worse than the WZ-132-1 because it competes with OP tanks. The light tank mostly competes with other light tanks, none of which are OP.

 

And maybe you don't always need to do craploads of damage to win games. You definitely need to do damage, and you need to damage to tanks that matter. But let's be real. 2K DPG would simply not be enough for a medium tank to dominate a game. It would be seen as a minimal effort. But in the light tank meta there is the opportunity to do the jobs that maybe seem ungrateful, but still contribute to a win.

 

PS. all games were solo, although I did except platoon invites in the game for medals.

 

PS. yes, I do realize that the moment I posted this I have cursed myself and this tank. It's the WoT way.



Cobra6 #2 Posted 17 December 2017 - 11:03 AM

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100 games is definitely enough, 20 games is enough to know if a tank is good or not and if it suits your playstyle.

 

In a good tank you can still carry your weight and do your job even on a horrific loss. In a bad tank you can't.

 

Leopard was a good tank when it was released but it's still balanced for the game 4-5 years ago while the rest has moved on. The Leo, being a paper medium, needs lazer accurate gun handling with very small dispersion values to compensate for it's lack of armour. As long as Russian mediums have better gun handling while being more heavily armoured, having higher DPM *AND* similar mobility, the Leo1 will never be properly balanced.

 

Cobra 6



Hiisi #3 Posted 17 December 2017 - 11:29 AM

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Well 100 games are not enought to say anything about wr of the tank if you are lucky or unlucky. Im currently in 200 games in e50m with okay damage, but wr is almost 40%. I consider myself okay player, but in tier 10 games its really hard to carry fail teams. 

 

But anyway leopard 1 is crap, but if you can keep wz132-1 wr up to 75 after 2000 games you are god.


Edited by Hiisi, 17 December 2017 - 11:30 AM.


anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #4 Posted 17 December 2017 - 11:44 AM

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Make posts like this and get the balance team to spring into action (and nurf another LT).

 

I hope you enjoy the WZ132-1!!!



Hiisi #5 Posted 17 December 2017 - 11:55 AM

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View PostSpek_en_Bonen, on 17 December 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Make posts like this and get the balance team to spring into action (and nurf another LT).

 

I hope you enjoy the WZ132-1!!!

 

yeah, both tanks are underperforming in wr curve. Only buffs needed for these tanks. 

 

OP has clearly had stars aligned in his good streak.



Aikl #6 Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:02 PM

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View PostSpek_en_Bonen, on 17 December 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Make posts like this and get the balance team to spring into action (and nurf another LT).

 

I hope you enjoy the WZ132-1!!!

 

Try reading his post again. His point is that most light tank players are kind of bad, so i.e. he's more likely to be able to tip the scales; not that the WZ is superior to the Leopard 1 in a one-on-one. I've always played light tanks for the same reason. Sometimes it's fun to be able to do things a bit differently.

anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #7 Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:09 PM

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View PostAikl, on 17 December 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

 

Try reading his post again. His point is that most light tank players are kind of bad, so i.e. he's more likely to be able to tip the scales; not that the WZ is superior to the Leopard 1 in a one-on-one. I've always played light tanks for the same reason. Sometimes it's fun to be able to do things a bit differently.

 

I don't need to read his post again.

He was clear that with not much effort he is able to perform like that. 

Enough reason for the balance department to spring into action. (based on the latest Q&A about Type5 and balance etc. nurfing the WZ132-1 because of this post would be totally reasonable (from WG's point of view)).

 

 

P.S. Argument is with WG, not with OP   :D


Edited by Spek_en_Bonen, 17 December 2017 - 12:10 PM.


tajj7 #8 Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:11 PM

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Nope.

 

Only real advantage it has is the troll turret. 

 

Leopard 1 is not great for the current meta but it has more HP, more pen, a proper premium round able to deal with super heavies and much better DPM. 



spuriousmonkey #9 Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:18 PM

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I am not aiming for 75% btw.

 

I am aiming for 60% wr.

 

60% at tier 10 used to be unthinkable for me. I am simply not that good at medium, heavy, TD play for that at tier X.

 

I did 50 games in the leopard 1 at the same time I did 100 games in the WZ-132-1. 

52% WR

2.1K DPG

 

Similar DPG to the WZ-132-1, but for a medium that is simply not good enough.

 

I am starting to think i was maybe just lucky with the WZ-132-1. Maybe I just got more 3-5-7 games than normal.

 



tank276 #10 Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:36 PM

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I use my lights to get the most spotting dmg possible.

I use the meds to get the most damage dealt possible.

You are probably a better player than me statistically but I think you are wrong to use the light as a med.

Unless you play in a city/corridor map ,which happens a lot unfortunately , and you dont have another choice.


Edited by tank276, 17 December 2017 - 12:37 PM.


brumbarr #11 Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:43 PM

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No, just NO!

 

The WZ-132-1 is BAD. Its horrible.   

The leo 1 is bad for a medium but still much better than any ligth tank.

 

WZ has no DPM.

WZ cant hit crap

WZ cant pen crap

WZ has worse gun handlign than the leo1.

WZ has no gun depression

WZ has less VR.

WZs supposed turret armor doesnt work

WZ has less HP

 

And for all that it gets  more camo, smaller size and 1kph more topspeed! WORTH IT! ... not

 

WZ is pretty much the second worst tier10 light now.

 

Btw: here is a graph of aiming circle size vs time for both movign at 64 kph comign to a halt:

 

Posted Image

 

 



brumbarr #12 Posted 17 December 2017 - 12:44 PM

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View Posttank276, on 17 December 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

I use my lights to get the most spotting dmg possible.

I use the meds to get the most damage dealt possible.

You are probably a better player than me statistically but I think you are wrong to use the light as a med.

Unless you play in a city/corridor map ,which happens a lot unfortunately , and you dont have another choice.

 

No, he has 60%+ WR in his WZ, he is clearly playing it correctly.

If you are never spottign in your med or never doing dmg in your light you wont win crap.



spuriousmonkey #13 Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:05 PM

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Games that are won confidently in the wz-132-1 are usually ones that have an even distribution of assisted + damage. Nothing exceptional in either department, but a fair amount in both. It's not that I am aiming to do that at the start of the game, but once the game is over, that is the result. I think a nice combination of assisted and real damage indicates that you have been doing dynamic gameplay and have switched roles during the game a few times. 

 

 

 

I forgot to mention one thing that might have affected the outcome of the games.

 

I have been listening to Ukulele music while playing the wz-132-1.

 

I didn't mention it before, but I think it might have been a contributing factor.

 

 



The_Georgian_One #14 Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:17 PM

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Maybe, just maybe, when in WZ your teams had Objects 140 when enemy had Leopards?

I guess what is key is that you get matched up vs another light and not Leo or, God forbid 140. No one would play lights if that was the case.

I also enjoy my LTs for the 'i don't have to carry' feeling. Except of T71DA, this one has 'OP as heck' label.

commer #15 Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:30 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 17 December 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

Nope.

 

Only real advantage it has is the troll turret. 

 

Leopard 1 is not great for the current meta but it has more HP, more pen, a proper premium round able to deal with super heavies and much better DPM. 

 

Came here to say the same.

 

Also wz132 takes an LT slot, Leo MT slot. So for a wz132-1 on your team there is a light on the enemy team. If you outperform him you already have a positive impact. In a leopard you have to outperform another t10 med.


Edited by commer, 17 December 2017 - 01:31 PM.


tank276 #16 Posted 17 December 2017 - 02:53 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 17 December 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

 

No, he has 60%+ WR in his WZ, he is clearly playing it correctly.

If you are never spottign in your med or never doing dmg in your light you wont win crap.

 

Never said "no spotting in med", never said "no dmg in lights", but the majority in meds must be dmg, in lights it must be spotting dmg.

Thats how they fulfill their roles.

You want to deal dmg? Play more meds, the opposite for spot dmg and lights.

I said from the start, he must be a better player than me stats wise.


Edited by tank276, 17 December 2017 - 02:54 PM.


TeddyMosby #17 Posted 17 December 2017 - 03:20 PM

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tank276 - Maybe in the old days MM lights were more spotters but these style of games today I see lights as doing both spotting and damage not just limited to only doing spotting damage like you say.


brumbarr #18 Posted 17 December 2017 - 03:36 PM

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View Posttank276, on 17 December 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

 

Never said "no spotting in med", never said "no dmg in lights", but the majority in meds must be dmg, in lights it must be spotting dmg.

Thats how they fulfill their roles.

You want to deal dmg? Play more meds, the opposite for spot dmg and lights.

I said from the start, he must be a better player than me stats wise.

 

You priority as any tank is getting enemy tanks killed. 

However you do it doesnt matter.

They way you get tansk killed is dependent of your current tanks strengths and the enemy tanks weaknesses and the situation at hand.

 

Focussing on one thing because you are in a certain class is a worng way to play.






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