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Tramp_In_Armour #41 Posted 30 December 2017 - 12:32 PM

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View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 29 December 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

Struggling now. Having a real hard time determining when to push and when to wait. Looked at lots of YouTube vids and I'm beginning to wonder if my tank has a big day-glow flag on it saying ' Here I am, all come and shoot me'. Seen lots of examples where LT's will hide behind a ridge, spotting like crazy, and no enemy tanks move to flank. I do it, and every enemy and his dog is on me within seconds! I keep hoping one of those Christmas crates is gonna have a Klingon cloaking device, but no luck yet.

 

A replay would help.

 

Don't rush this. At 700 battles, I too was in despair, trying and often failing to make my Cruiser III work. It takes time to get a feel for the game, and you've just started a new, fiercer tier. I get the same feeling now when I jump into my Cromwell B. I love this tank, it handles beautifully, but I am woefully out of my depth at tier 6, and after several demoralising failures, I dropped back down. I dip my toe into tier 6 now and again, but at the moment I'm not ready for it.

 

Your view and camo skills are good. I don't know what the camo rating of the leopard is, but with paint, it should be good (though I notice it is a fairly large tank when I sit next to one in the battlefield). Tip: Whenever you poke a ridge, try and do it behind a bush, even a tiny one. If you are spotted, relocate or run away, then try again in a different location. If you're being flanked so easily, you are either staying in place too long after being lit, or you are close to the enemy with few allies nearby. I'm guessing that maybe you are being flanked or hunted down by enemy lights who are doing the same job as you and taking the opportunity to kill you. It is the job of scouts to kill opposing scouts and blind the enemy team too. Unfortunately, at this tier, you will encounter scouts who are good at handling their tanks... or just suicidal as they yolo, looking for an easy kill. They're sharks and you have to beware. There's no easy way to learn this lesson. Either grit your teeth, try different stuff and see what works and what doesn't (be passive some games, aggressive in others, depending on your mood). After getting quickly killed so many times, I grew very cautious in my paper tanks and it took a long time to inch a little further forward until I wasn't afraid to take risks again. Although I talked in a recent post about making a difference in a match, this is an ideal that will take time to work towards. You're not going to make that leap in just a few battles. So take your time. Eventually, you will make a crucial difference in a game, and it will feel awesome. For me, it was when I was last man standing on Ruinberg in my poor Cruiser, down to 20 HP after a stupid mistake, but realising I needed to come out of hiding to confront the last two enemy tanks who were capping. In spite of being insulted by some team mates who felt I was being too cautious, I took a long route through the city, surprised the enemy and took them both out, winning the game. To me, that was a very big deal, and I was walking on air afterwards. It's little successes like that, that keep you going. But it takes time.

 

If tier 5 is getting a bit too much for you, maybe you can drop back down to the Luchs (New Year offer coming soon that allows retraining crew at half price), and see if you can get second class, then first class in it. Just a thought.



Dead_in_30_seconds #42 Posted 30 December 2017 - 01:29 PM

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But, but, but, but.... I WANNA BE GOOD NOWWWWW!!   :)

 

I know all of the above is true of course, and I was only half seriously considering parking in the corner of a map and sulking like a 5 year old :arta:

 

I can't even blame the tank. It's got full camo paint, great range, good crew, it's just the idiot driving it that lets it down!

 

The following is an example of just not getting the kind of scores I'd like. I dunno, maybe I'm expecting too much.

 

http://wotreplays.eu/site/4043252?secret=93c8b0e32b4f25add778b822caa008b4

 



Tramp_In_Armour #43 Posted 30 December 2017 - 01:57 PM

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View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 30 December 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

But, but, but, but.... I WANNA BE GOOD NOWWWWW!!   :)

 

 

Yup. I know that feeling well.

 

The replay was short and sweet. You started well, but then, after you hit the first tank, you ran into the problem of 'What do I do now?'. Same as the last replay. This is normal. You didn't make any major mistakes. After the first encounter, you could have driven up the ridge to your right, like the T-28 did. You could have gotten more spotting/sniping opportunities then. Always seek high ground. In a situation like this, when the heavies and mediums are driving ahead of you, you have to realise that you're no longer useful in the area. If it's not a good idea to run ahead of the leading tanks on your flank (and if they're already engaged with the enemy, they don't need you anymore), look for other areas on the mini-map where you might be more useful. Empty areas. You can spot and maybe find flanking opportunities (like when you crossed the river and spotted the TD). Other than that, it wasn't a bad game. The enemy melted away and died fast, and sometimes that's just the way it goes. But it's a win.



Baldrickk #44 Posted 30 December 2017 - 07:21 PM

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View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 30 December 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

Hi Balders

 

Commander = BIA 100%, 6th Sense 100% Recon 79%

Driver = Concealment 85%

Radio Operator = BIA 100%, Situational Awareness 100%, Concealment 85%

Loader = Concealment 85%

FYI, those BIA fo nothing. Where did that come from? Female crew or you took thise two from another tank?

Would have been better to pick concealment over recon on the commander. The bonus for one crew member is greater than the extra view range recon gives, letting you get closer to spot, extending view range by proximity, without getting spotted back.

The same with the radio operator, camo first is more efficient.



Dead_in_30_seconds #45 Posted 30 December 2017 - 07:40 PM

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Yo Baldrickk. :B

 

The 2 with BIA are both female, comes as standard I'm informed. Can't reassign those, I've tried.

 

You reckon Camo over Sit Aware for radio, and same for Mrs Commander over recon?

 

Lack of info on forums isn't the problem I reckon, it's more that there is so much conflicting advice.

 

I'll take my two female crew into a dark room and give them a good seeing to.

 

I'll post back the revised skills in a few mins and see what you think.

 

Regards

Dead_in_under_a_minute but not as quick as it used to be. :bush:

 

 

 

Commander = BIA 100%, 6th Sense 100% Concealment 80%

Driver = Concealment 86%

Radio Operator = BIA 100%,  Concealment 100%, Situational Awareness 85%

Loader = Concealment 86%


 

Tramp_In_Armour #46 Posted 30 December 2017 - 08:02 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 30 December 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

FYI, those BIA fo nothing. Where did that come from? Female crew or you took thise two from another tank?

Would have been better to pick concealment over recon on the commander. The bonus for one crew member is greater than the extra view range recon gives, letting you get closer to spot, extending view range by proximity, without getting spotted back.

The same with the radio operator, camo first is more efficient.

 

Personally, I think it depends on the style of play. At the noob level (which I'm still at myself) I'd prefer a little more distance from the enemy, since getting out of trouble is a skill in itself. I like longer view range as I also accidentally pick up more assisted damage, which is helpful with early grinding of crews. It boils down to whether the OP is ready for more aggressive scouting. Considering how difficult scouting is, that's a choice that needs to be consciously made.

Dead_in_30_seconds #47 Posted 30 December 2017 - 08:19 PM

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Lol. The OP? that's a bit formal innit? Is it 'coz we've not been properly introduced? Lol.

 

Seriously though, I completely get where you're coming from. To be honest, I'm beginning to wonder if the whole, light scout role is worth the heartache.

 

Maybe it's time to consider a Med or Heavy. It's beginning to become apparent just how hard the spotting role is, certainly at tier IV and above.

 

I've watched a lot of vids and replays over the last few weeks, and I appreciate people generally only post the one's that show them performing well, but I've seen some Light Tankers on tier V and above, drive around the map as if they are invisible, score a gazillion HP, and generally make it look easy. Just frustrates the hell outta me.

 

 



Tramp_In_Armour #48 Posted 30 December 2017 - 09:08 PM

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View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 30 December 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

Lol. The OP? that's a bit formal innit? Is it 'coz we've not been properly introduced? Lol.

 

 

It's easier to write than Dead_in_30_seconds (DI3S?). :)

 

If you like playing your light tank, it may be worth sticking with it. Yes, watching unicum and 'ace' videos can be frustrating at this level. Every time I tried to emulate a unicum, I won myself a fast return ticket to the garage. They make it look easier than it is. Sometimes you just have to take in what lessons you can from them then adapt it to your style of play.

 

You've got the T-28, so you could graduate to the KV, which many here say is very noob-friendly. Haven't played it yet, so I don't know. I do know that playing a different class of tank involves learning a bunch of stuff that pertains to that class only. When I found myself as a medium on a map where I'd previously played as a fast light, I felt confused about where I should go. It's a good experience to play different classes on the same map - you learn a whole lot more about map awareness. But it takes some adjustment.

 

But sticking with your leopard may bring its rewards. I stuck with my Cruisers III and IV until eventually, after about 300 or so battles, I went from bad to average. It was painful at times, but it must have taught me something, because the Covenanter wasn't so bad, and I'm doing okay now in the Crusader (in spite of what people say about it). On the other hand, I've just started the Churchill I, which has way more armour and hit points, and I'm feeling bad again. Because I've got to learn heavies now, and it's a completely different meta (I feel). But I like the tank, so I'll stick with it. If you like playing scouts, or this tank in particular, persevere. You'll only get better. Do what you enjoy.

 

 



Dead_in_30_seconds #49 Posted 30 December 2017 - 09:18 PM

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Do you 'toon much Tramp?

 

How does it work in-game regards messaging etc?

 

If you were playing Med or Heavy, and I was platooned with you, are our convo's only between each other, or whole team?

 

Don't really know anything about it, but it might be a good learning tool



Tramp_In_Armour #50 Posted 30 December 2017 - 09:22 PM

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View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 30 December 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

Do you 'toon much Tramp?

 

How does it work in-game regards messaging etc?

 

If you were playing Med or Heavy, and I was platooned with you, are our convo's only between each other, or whole team?

 

Don't really know anything about it, but it might be a good learning tool

 

I honestly have no idea about platooning. I was going to post a question on the forum myself about how it works. I don't have a headset and mic, so I don't know if it's for me. Don't fancy doing a lot of typing in the middle of a battle (that's a skill I haven't mastered either).

Baldrickk #51 Posted 31 December 2017 - 05:59 AM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 30 December 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

 

Personally, I think it depends on the style of play. At the noob level (which I'm still at myself) I'd prefer a little more distance from the enemy, since getting out of trouble is a skill in itself. I like longer view range as I also accidentally pick up more assisted damage, which is helpful with early grinding of crews. It boils down to whether the OP is ready for more aggressive scouting. Considering how difficult scouting is, that's a choice that needs to be consciously made.

It's harder to scout when dead, and the camo really makes a difference.

Lets compare view range skills to camo skills.

First, a 100%:0% vs 0%:100% comparison to see the base values:

This is using my recommended equipment in the Luchs of optics, vents and binoculars.  The comparison tool uses the binoculars, so this gives the biggest bonus possible to view range with both Sit.Awareness and recon enabled.

Camo:            34.6% (+13%)

View Range:  486m  (+26m)

Lets say we are matched up against a light tank with the same base View range as the luchs, sat in a bush with binoculars active (e.g. another Luchs)

34.6% of 460 = 159m reduced from the enemy tank's view range, 59.8m of which is due to the camo..  That compares to the additional 26m from the vision skills.

 

Of course, this isn't completely fair.

Dead_in_30_seconds had 85% camo on 3 of his crew.  This averages out at 63.75% for the whole crew, or 38.1m reduced from the enemy Luchs by the camo skill..  As his crew is now, it averages out at 84.25% camo skill, or 50.4m reduced from the enemy Luch's view range.

his recon / situational awareness wasn't fully trained, so would have, if binocs were active, been giving a bonus of 21m with the original skills, and the level of situational awareness still gives 11.7m view range extension.

so retraining the crew gave him an extra 12m of leeway, at the cost of 9m view range.

Or thinking about it another way, gave him another few metres of view range if he pushes forwards, but helps keep him alive more too.  This is magnified against tanks who are not using binoculars to try and spot you, and will only increase more as you get towards 100% in that skill, unlike the view range bonuses which are relatively small.

 

View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 30 December 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

Do you 'toon much Tramp?

 

How does it work in-game regards messaging etc?

 

If you were playing Med or Heavy, and I was platooned with you, are our convo's only between each other, or whole team?

 

Don't really know anything about it, but it might be a good learning tool

You can switch to platoon chat from team chat by hitting [TAB] while the chat input is open.


Edited by Baldrickk, 31 December 2017 - 06:23 AM.


SilentGaze #52 Posted 31 December 2017 - 11:57 AM

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I hope OP wouldn't mind if I make one question in this thread.  It's concerning what Baldrickk said.  Never thought it that way to compare view range and camo.

 

I had in my M8A1 skille set:

Commander  BIA, 6th sense, camo 24%

Gunner  BIA, camo 24%

Driver  BIA, camo 24%

Rad. Oper.  BIA, Sit. Awar. 24%

 

--> Concelament  44,5 /11,84 %

                             19,3 /5,13  %

--> Viwe Range   413 m

 

I changed Rad. Oper to  BIA, Camo 24%

 

--> Concealment  46,1 /12,6 %

                             19,3 /5,13 %

 

--> View Range   409 m

 

So I lost 4 m View Range and gained 1,6 / 0,76 % camo.  

 

Does it now mean that an enemy tank with 460 m View Range have to come 7 meters closer to me comparet the earlier situation? 

Does it also mean that I spot him now 4 meters closer than earlier, and then gaining 7-4=3 meters more safe area to operate?


Edited by SilentGaze, 31 December 2017 - 11:59 AM.


Baldrickk #53 Posted 31 December 2017 - 01:22 PM

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View PostSilentGaze, on 31 December 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

I hope OP wouldn't mind if I make one question in this thread.  It's concerning what Baldrickk said.  Never thought it that way to compare view range and camo.

 

I had in my M8A1 skille set:

Commander  BIA, 6th sense, camo 24%

Gunner  BIA, camo 24%

Driver  BIA, camo 24%

Rad. Oper.  BIA, Sit. Awar. 24%

 

--> Concelament  44,5 /11,84 %

                             19,3 /5,13  %

--> Viwe Range   413 m

 

I changed Rad. Oper to  BIA, Camo 24%

 

--> Concealment  46,1 /12,6 %

                             19,3 /5,13 %

 

--> View Range   409 m

 

So I lost 4 m View Range and gained 1,6 / 0,76 % camo.  

 

Does it now mean that an enemy tank with 460 m View Range have to come 7 meters closer to me comparet the earlier situation? 

Does it also mean that I spot him now 4 meters closer than earlier, and then gaining 7-4=3 meters more safe area to operate?

I haven't pulled out my calculator, but that sounds about right. 



Dead_in_30_seconds #54 Posted 31 December 2017 - 02:31 PM

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View PostSilentGaze, on 31 December 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

I hope OP wouldn't mind if I make one question in this thread.

 

SilentGaze, your question is very much appreciated. The more people that add to players understanding, the more we learn. Welcome.

 



Tramp_In_Armour #55 Posted 31 December 2017 - 03:18 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 31 December 2017 - 05:59 AM, said:

It's harder to scout when dead, and the camo really makes a difference.

Lets compare view range skills to camo skills.

First, a 100%:0% vs 0%:100% comparison to see the base values:

This is using my recommended equipment in the Luchs of optics, vents and binoculars.  The comparison tool uses the binoculars, so this gives the biggest bonus possible to view range with both Sit.Awareness and recon enabled.

Camo:            34.6% (+13%)

View Range:  486m  (+26m)

Lets say we are matched up against a light tank with the same base View range as the luchs, sat in a bush with binoculars active (e.g. another Luchs)

34.6% of 460 = 159m reduced from the enemy tank's view range, 59.8m of which is due to the camo..  That compares to the additional 26m from the vision skills.

 

Of course, this isn't completely fair.

Dead_in_30_seconds had 85% camo on 3 of his crew.  This averages out at 63.75% for the whole crew, or 38.1m reduced from the enemy Luchs by the camo skill..  As his crew is now, it averages out at 84.25% camo skill, or 50.4m reduced from the enemy Luch's view range.

his recon / situational awareness wasn't fully trained, so would have, if binocs were active, been giving a bonus of 21m with the original skills, and the level of situational awareness still gives 11.7m view range extension.

so retraining the crew gave him an extra 12m of leeway, at the cost of 9m view range.

Or thinking about it another way, gave him another few metres of view range if he pushes forwards, but helps keep him alive more too.  This is magnified against tanks who are not using binoculars to try and spot you, and will only increase more as you get towards 100% in that skill, unlike the view range bonuses which are relatively small.

 

I like the maths, and the stats don't lie, but aren't there situations where a better view range helps? For instance, let's say I poke the central ridge on Prok, or the spotting bush in the village on Redshire. I would want my view range maxed out to even that extra 4m (to use Silentgaze's calculations, just as an example). Now, you're right in saying that I can afford to go a further seven metres forward and spot more - but would I want to cross over the ridge or advance from the bush in this circumstance? I'm not trying to be facetious here. It's just that, for my style of scouting (and I'm no expert), I go to a ridge or bush or good piece of cover, see what I can see, then, often, pull back and laterally relocate. The degree of cover dictates where I go and, as I'm cautious, I don't like to poke too far if the next cover is too far away and I can't see what's ahead. There's also the situations where, by poking a ridge or from behind a house, I am definitely spotted, camo or no camo, because an enemy tank is close by. Yet, in that brief moment before I pulled back into safety, the extra four metres (again, for example) of view range might have spotted a distant enemy tank. In that situation, there was no way I was going to risk getting seven metres closer, especially since I'm already lit, but increased view range still increases the chance of getting that spot.

 

Camo does trump the mere 3% and 2% of Situational Awareness and Recon, I grant you that, and if the battlefield was an open plain (and there are a few) then camo is the best insurance. But in a ton of other situations, is that really the case?



Dead_in_30_seconds #56 Posted 31 December 2017 - 03:33 PM

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Me being ignorant again. Doesn't the 2 second update kinda negate that little bit of extra view range when we're poking our nose out and pulling straight back to safety?

Tramp_In_Armour #57 Posted 31 December 2017 - 03:35 PM

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Two second update?

 



Dead_in_30_seconds #58 Posted 31 December 2017 - 03:42 PM

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Spotting checks by system?

 

Lol, don't tell me I got that wrong as well. I tell ya, I'm seriously considering going back to playing with Lego, this stuff is doing my tired, old head in!



Tramp_In_Armour #59 Posted 31 December 2017 - 03:49 PM

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View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 31 December 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

Spotting checks by system?

 

Lol, don't tell me I got that wrong as well. I tell ya, I'm seriously considering going back to playing with Lego, this stuff is doing my tired, old head in!

 

I think you're referring to the three second delay before Sixth Sense goes off (it's two seconds if you use bonds to activate the enhanced Sixth Sense directive - the last box on the right in the garage, next to consumables). Doesn't affect your spotting (which is instantaneous), only the point at which your own light bulb goes on.

Edited by Tramp_In_Armour, 31 December 2017 - 03:49 PM.


Baldrickk #60 Posted 31 December 2017 - 03:56 PM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 31 December 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

 

I like the maths, and the stats don't lie, but aren't there situations where a better view range helps? For instance, let's say I poke the central ridge on Prok, or the spotting bush in the village on Redshire. I would want my view range maxed out to even that extra 4m (to use Silentgaze's calculations, just as an example). Now, you're right in saying that I can afford to go a further seven metres forward and spot more - but would I want to cross over the ridge or advance from the bush in this circumstance? I'm not trying to be facetious here. It's just that, for my style of scouting (and I'm no expert), I go to a ridge or bush or good piece of cover, see what I can see, then, often, pull back and laterally relocate. The degree of cover dictates where I go and, as I'm cautious, I don't like to poke too far if the next cover is too far away and I can't see what's ahead. There's also the situations where, by poking a ridge or from behind a house, I am definitely spotted, camo or no camo, because an enemy tank is close by. Yet, in that brief moment before I pulled back into safety, the extra four metres (again, for example) of view range might have spotted a distant enemy tank. In that situation, there was no way I was going to risk getting seven metres closer, especially since I'm already lit, but increased view range still increases the chance of getting that spot.

 

Camo does trump the mere 3% and 2% of Situational Awareness and Recon, I grant you that, and if the battlefield was an open plain (and there are a few) then camo is the best insurance. But in a ton of other situations, is that really the case?

Ideally, you want to max out both, but that takes time.

Camo keeps you alive, and gives you more options on the battlefield. For example if you can flank without being spotted on the way in, then you can suprise the enemy with the first shots you make, or you can get to a position where they do not expect you to be.

View range is important, but less so than it used to be. The maps are much more enclosed now, and you can always use terrain to get a little closer to the enemy to spot.

 

View PostDead_in_30_seconds, on 31 December 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Me being ignorant again. Doesn't the 2 second update kinda negate that little bit of extra view range when we're poking our nose out and pulling straight back to safety?

The spotting system was updated a while ago.  Spot checks are a lot more frequent now.

It did used to be that at long ranges it would take about 2s to guarantee that you spotted an enemy.  That is no longer the case.


Edited by Baldrickk, 31 December 2017 - 03:56 PM.






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