Jump to content


The tier 10 meta is awful.


  • Please log in to reply
142 replies to this topic

tajj7 #1 Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:56 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 25793 battles
  • 13,836
  • [-MM] -MM
  • Member since:
    03-30-2014

*
POPULAR

Just got worse and worse over the last few months, the main problems IMO -

 

1. Maps

 

Bad design and too small, now these are not problems exclusive to tier 10 but they are felt more at tier 10 IMO, you have faster more mobile tanks, you have better view range, better gun handling so it's easier to quickly hit shots at range, more pen to pen things at range etc.

 

Plus all tier 10 games on maps like Mines are just stupid, the map is too small, you have all these tanks crowded into small choke points slinging shots at each other but due to the armour creep and high HP, these slug matches often take a while and are largely settled by RNG.

 

Then you have these OP base camping spots where broken TDs will just sit the whole game ready to ruin your day with their absurd alpha (183s, JpE100s) or absurd camo (Strv) which are hard to flank and have bush cover, hard cover and elevation. Examples are like the base camping ridges on Abbey, Mines, peninsular on Fjords, corner spots on Fishermans Bay etc. 

 

So are often left with very passive games where aggressive play is often heavily punished because to get anywhere and win a flank you have to go through 1/2 choke points with a mass throng of Maus, type 5s, Badgers etc., then when you get through that you'll have Strvs and 183s in OP base camping spots ready to finish you off and all through this you get peppered by the 2-3 arty that are in every other tier 10 game. 

 

So people don;t bother being aggressive, they just sit and wait for people to push them, meaning you get little help from your teammates as they are camping and you are facing a load of campers. 

 

2. Min/Max balancing. 

 

With the Badger we have yet another tank that is highly situational and can range from being completely broken in a defensive hull down position to pretty useless in any sort of city/flat map or any sort of push. Meaning that most people who play it will just sit on a ridge, either waiting for the enemy to push them or basically do nothing for most of the game. 

 

This adds to the one shot 183s that are basically useless aside that ability to occasionally one shot people, the awful JpE100 which again basically hits people for 1k and then is awful in every other way. 

 

The Strv 103B, which has extreme camo, so pretty much any med or light trying to spot it gets screwed over and even if you are 200m from these things they can still fire at you and not get spotted, but then the tank is completely useless for the average player in any sort of aggressive play so they call just camp in the back in them, making them useless team mates AND annoying to face (plus see the OP base camping spots above).

 

Then you have Kranvagns which are the Badger situation all over again, OP in certain situations, poor in most other situations. 

 

3. Armour Powecreep

 

This is basically getting stupid now, the Badger has just added to it, but of course we had Maus buffs, Type 5 coming into the game, Pz VII etc. a whole host of tanks that basically either need premium ammo spammed at them all the time or get hull down and then have no other weakspots.

 

So you end up with these engagements where you have all these sort of tanks brawling at like 50m, often having to resort to spamming HE at each to do any damage. 

 

If not pretty much everyone is forced into spamming premium ammo. 

 

We used to have one tank, the IS7 which was very strong hull down and few others that were quite strong, now we have half the tanks on tier 10 are absurdly strong hull down and the other half are absurdly strong without even needing to be hull down. 

 

It's almost like they have done this to give an excuse for why arty is in the game, cos pretty much the only thing dislodging a hull down Badger is arty.

 

Now if we had better maps this would be less of issue, we could bypass and leave these tanks alone in their strong positions, that Badger could sit on the ridge all he likes but when on most maps you have 1/2 viable routes and no cross-fire or interactions between flanks, there is not much option but to tackle these tanks frontally. 

 

4. All tier 10 MM

 

Yes I know being a tier 8 v tier 10s sucks, but the problem with all tier 10 MM is it just makes the above problems even worse, small maps is bad for tier 10s? Try having 15 of them stuck at two choke points.

 

One base camping tier 10 TD is managable, when you have 5 of them sitting on the same base camp ridge it is near impossible to deal with.

 

One hull down Kranvagn or Badger working a ridge, can be flanked or rushed or you can get shots into their sides, but when you have 2 Badgers, a Kranvagn, an IS7, and a Super Conqueror all working the same ridge it is just stupid. 

 

5. HE Spam

 

So now you have this armour pwoercreep and limited options with maps, you basically have all this HE spam going on because no one can pen anyone or flank anyone, and it's just stupid.

 

Type 5s are obviously a big culprit, as is arty, but even many heavy tank players now just spam HE at you, I had a Vk 1001P do 300 damage to my S.Conqueror yesterday with a non-penning HE shot, after I'd been battered by the two enemy arty and was hiding under the hill on mines because I literally couldn't go anywhere else on that stupidly small map without losing all my HP to HE spam. 

 

HE is just completely skill less, it's just RNG city, no aiming really required, armour doesn't really matter, you just snap, and roll the dice. 

 

Solutions

 

No quick ones really. 

 

But IMO -

 

  • Big overhaul of maps, remove the small ones from higher tiers, open up some of the others so there are less protected corridors, make bigger maps (and keep the tank numbers the same) I'd like to see re-worked versions of the grand battles maps but with just 15 v 15 tanks. Also all the silly base camping ridges and red line spots need removing and nerfing, if people want good spots they need to move and contest them not just drive 50m from where they spawn.  This would mean all tier 10 battles would work a lot better because you wouldn't have 8v8 tier 10s facing off in the 1-2 flanks, you'd have smaller battles of 4-5 tanks facing each other. 

 

  • Re-instating weakspots on tanks, hull down tanks should at least have small E75 size cupolas or like the new Patton cupola so they can be challenged hull down. Badger needs a proper weakspot on it's hull, compensate it with a bit more mobility so it's less painful to play. Type 5 needs an armour re-work, Maus needs to go back to it's old armour layout, Kranvagn should have it's historical armour that means it needs to use it's gun depression and then buff other areas of the tank like handling and mobility.  Bring back lower plate weakspots, small cupolas, machine gun ports etc. Overall tanks should have armour more balanced like the E100 or the E75, strong tanks if used correctly but still have frontal weakspots.

 

  • Stop the min/max balancing of tanks, re-work the JpE100 and 183s with lower alpha and then make the rest of the tank better, nerf the Strvs camo values, make their armour less all or nothing so guns with 120mm or less calibre can challenge them, buff the mobility, getting into siege mode etc. so the tank is less awkward. 

 

  • Once the above is done you can rebalance premium ammo, basically IMO not a huge amount needs to be done but I'd make the increase more uniform, costs more uniform and overall drop the boost in penetration, so tier 10 premium rounds that are 320-340 penetration should come down to like 280-300. 

 

  • Get rid of the silly derp guns, re-balance how HE works so it's less annoying, cap on arty down to 1 IMO. 


brumbarr #2 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:00 AM

    Lieutenant General

  • Player
  • 38626 battles
  • 6,326
  • Member since:
    07-30-2012

And then you  read this from a WG dev:

 

"We have almost finished the rebalance of the tiers 10, 9 and 8".

 

This game is doomed.


Edited by brumbarr, 20 December 2017 - 11:00 AM.


lonigus #3 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:04 AM

    Lieutenant General

  • Player
  • 32631 battles
  • 7,996
  • Member since:
    09-26-2011
A tajj thread? I will need a huge cup of coffee first.

Gkirmathal #4 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:11 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 8125 battles
  • 1,522
  • Member since:
    01-14-2013

Well written but tbh it's not going to happen Taj, though I fully agree with you 200%

But Wargaming's vision is completely the opposite of what could be deemed logical for this game in terms of balance and enjoyment.

 

You'd know if you followed that last discussion, were that new WG Producer failed to answer simple question's about WG's vision, direction and their logic behind how they come to decide things. That just spoke volumes of how they operate.

 

Their modus operandi does not follow the logic you have written up...regretfully.


Edited by Gkirmathal, 20 December 2017 - 11:12 AM.


Draz_H #5 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:11 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 14692 battles
  • 647
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    05-30-2011

View Postlonigus, on 20 December 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

A tajj thread? I will need a huge cup of coffee first.

 

He just opened a thread so you get some reason in your system from all those rigged threads. Thanks tajj for keeping us sane in our time of need!

commer #6 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:27 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 38175 battles
  • 1,995
  • Member since:
    06-14-2011
You don't like the new hull down meta at t10? Nothing can push but everything can poke ridges and be near invicible so even heat means nothing.

Dava_117 #7 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:39 AM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 20268 battles
  • 3,650
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    12-17-2014

I substantially agree with you.

HE mechanics are fine, they just need to remove the silly gold round from Type5 and rework HESH to be more realistic (like autopen with 0 damage but enanced module damage).

Everything else feel reasonable to me. But I doubt WG will do anything in this direction. Sadly...

PS

 



commer #8 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:44 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 38175 battles
  • 1,995
  • Member since:
    06-14-2011

View PostDava_117, on 20 December 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

I substantially agree with you.

HE mechanics are fine, they just need to remove the silly gold round from Type5 and rework HESH to be more realistic (like autopen with 0 damage but enanced module damage).

Everything else feel reasonable to me. But I doubt WG will do anything in this direction. Sadly...

PS

 

 

He tanks are bad because they negate skill. 

Cobra6 #9 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:59 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 16344 battles
  • 15,997
  • [RGT] RGT
  • Member since:
    09-17-2010

View Postbrumbarr, on 20 December 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

And then you  read this from a WG dev:

 

"We have almost finished the rebalance of the tiers 10, 9 and 8".

 

This game is doomed.

 

Yep, they've managed to make it worse with their rebalance, not better. Quite amazing when you think of it.

 

Pretty much all the reason Tajj pointed out is why I hardly play tier 10 in randoms, on most maps it's just a boring static camp fest because if you dare to make an aggressive play you'll either lose 1/2 your HP in one shot from a TD, get perma stunned by arty *OR* just run into a Maus/Type5 which will ruin your day. Skill-full aggressive play up front is being discouraged by everything Tajj pointed out.  And lets not forget that T8+ lights but mostly T10 lights get completely gimped in their guns so you can't viably engage enemies at range either.

 

It's still possible at the lower tiers where tank differences in classes still really matter, not everyone is at viewrange cap and armour requires some skill to work.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 20 December 2017 - 12:05 PM.


eldrak #10 Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:59 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 48571 battles
  • 1,092
  • [NE-VO] NE-VO
  • Member since:
    01-27-2011

Oh,  I thought this would be a stealth complaint about people unused to tier 10 trying to grind Bonds for CW reward tank.

 

I don't agree with everything in the OP but most of it makes sense and implementation of those bullet points would probably lead to a slightly better game overall.



Junglist_ #11 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:05 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 37792 battles
  • 1,353
  • Member since:
    06-17-2013
Absolutely agree with everything said in OP. These are the reasons why I have almost completely stopped playing tier 10s which used to be my fav tier to play about a year or two ago 

ZlatanArKung #12 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:14 PM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 1529 battles
  • 5,122
  • Member since:
    12-20-2014

View PostCobra6, on 20 December 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

 

Yep, they've managed to make it worse with their rebalance, not better. Quite amazing when you think of it.

 

Pretty much all the reason Tajj pointed out is why I hardly play tier 10 in randoms, on most maps it's just a boring static camp fest because if you dare to make an aggressive play you'll either lose 1/2 your HP in one shot from a TD, get perma stunned by arty *OR* just run into a Maus/Type5 which will ruin your day. Skill-full aggressive play up front is being discouraged by everything Tajj pointed out.  And lets not forget that T8+ lights but mostly T10 lights get completely gimped in their guns so you can't viably engage enemies at range either.

 

It's still possible at the lower tiers where tank differences in classes still really matter, not everyone is at viewrange cap and armour requires some skill to work.

 

Cobra 6

But soon, the lower tiers will also be rebalanced by WG.



Dava_117 #13 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:16 PM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 20268 battles
  • 3,650
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    12-17-2014

View Postcommer, on 20 December 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

 

He tanks are bad because they negate skill. 

 

Never said the opposit. But HE mechanics are fine in my opinion. An E100 spamming HE is not a problem (except for his team), but Type5 derp surely it is. The problem are the overbuffed derpgun, like Types, and a bad implementation of HESH mechanics. I seriously doubt that people would still spam HESH if they get reworked to just do module damage (as IRL), or use the type derp if it lose the prem round.

ZlatanArKung #14 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:17 PM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 1529 battles
  • 5,122
  • Member since:
    12-20-2014

I general I agree, but not on everything.

Anyway, I think tajj, and others, have to realise WG doesn't make a game for the skilled players. They make a game for the average (48% WR) players.
So any change that might increase the skill-cap or in any way balance the game (making all tanks equally powerful albeit in different areas) are just not interesting for WG at all.

Just lol at that kaya guys responses in that thread.

 

Furthermore, Baldrickk have recently pointed out that the average WR/wn8 (I assume he is correct, haven't checked myself) of the active playerbase is going down, which means that it is the good and experienced players that leave this game. Which further indicates that the changes WG have made over last 1-2 year are not well received by the good players.


Edited by ZlatanArKung, 20 December 2017 - 12:20 PM.


TankkiPoju #15 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:18 PM

    Lieutenant General

  • Player
  • 21002 battles
  • 6,426
  • [-PJ-] -PJ-
  • Member since:
    05-20-2011

Tier 8 balance is rekt because OP premium tanks vs old regular tanks. Panther 2 or Pershing vs Defender or Patriot? Yeah lol.

 

Tier 9 balance is actually pretty good. Even old tanks like ST-I are still decent (well, good in my opinion).

 

Tier 10 is just retarded, and yes it's largely because of the maps. I had a game yesterday on Ensk where my team had two Swedish cheese wedge TDs and the enemy had two Badgers. "Well played to the enemy team."

 

Min maxing is a hard part, because let's face it guys: One of the good things in WoT is tanks are actually really, really different.

 



Hamsterkicker #16 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:24 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 34893 battles
  • 607
  • [TEAMB] TEAMB
  • Member since:
    08-08-2011

I am with you 100 %.. The worst thing is though that tier 10 is the end game. This is where you arrive at after grinding for many many battles. Then you get your shiny Tier 10 only to figure out that the random gameplay at Tier 10 s*cks... So, why continue playing, maybe to grind another tier 10 only to figure out that it doesn't matter?  

 

Grand Battles for examples is just a massive massive camp fest. Why. simply, being aggresive with a medium tank, let alone a light,  means you get killed by one or two shots from red lining TD's.. (T110E4, JP E100, FV, Grilles etc). 

 

I would say that Tier 9 is currently by far the most enjoyable to play..



tajj7 #17 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:27 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 25793 battles
  • 13,836
  • [-MM] -MM
  • Member since:
    03-30-2014

View PostTankkiPoju, on 20 December 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Tier 9 balance is actually pretty good. Even old tanks like ST-I are still decent (well, good in my opinion).

 

This is a key point.

 

It is quite astounding how much better tier 9 tank balance is compared to tier 10. 

 

Sure you still have Type 4 and Strv 103-0, those could still be changed but mainly you have heavy tanks with fair weakspots, you have alpha at max 750, and you have a whole host of competitive tanks. 

 

There is these days barely a poor OR an obviously OP tank on tier 9, most tanks you can take and have a decent game and most of these tanks are not min/maxed or broken. 



Lord_Edge #18 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:32 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 5989 battles
  • 834
  • Member since:
    11-26-2016

View Posttajj7, on 20 December 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

  •  re-work the JpE100 and 183s with lower alpha

This your solution to every tank in the game that does above average damage lol, nerf the ISU, nerf the KV-2, nerf all the Jap heavies, etc.

 

If every tank was the same then the game would be really boring.



tajj7 #19 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:35 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 25793 battles
  • 13,836
  • [-MM] -MM
  • Member since:
    03-30-2014

View PostLord_Edge, on 20 December 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

This your solution to every tank in the game that does above average damage lol, nerf the ISU, nerf the KV-2, nerf all the Jap heavies, etc.

 

If every tank was the same then the game would be really boring.

 

Variety is not a reason for bad balance.

 

You can have different tanks and still have them not broken.

 

One shot/very high alpha is generally bad for most players because it unfairly punishes mistakes and causes camping. 



Cannes76 #20 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:41 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 68658 battles
  • 1,767
  • [TAKE] TAKE
  • Member since:
    04-16-2011

View PostDava_117, on 20 December 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

 

The problem are the overbuffed derpgun, like Types, and a bad implementation of HESH mechanics. I seriously doubt that people would still spam HESH if they get reworked to just do module damage (as IRL), or use the type derp if it lose the prem round.

You may want to consider that a tank literally is its modules. A IRL tank doesn't have hitpoints... When enough of the mechanical functions or crew of a tank is knocked out it ceases to function. In the game this is (mostly) depicted by hp. Having HESH do 0 dmg makes absolutely no sense gamewise.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users