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Bring back Confrontation mode

Confrontation nations

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Poll: Do you want confrontation brought back? (32 members have cast votes)

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Do you want confrontation brought back?

  1. Yes (18 votes [52.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 52.94%

  2. No (16 votes [47.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.06%

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WraithRaider #1 Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:30 AM

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Anyone remember we had this for about a patch? Nation v Nation. No, not that terrible "Historical battle" mode, but proper nation v nation.

 

I'm not sure why they removed it, I expect something to do with national game balance, I suspect the Russians won more games, I don't know. But frankly, the game has moved on a lot since then, more nations tech trees have been fleshed out, France has non autoloaders etc. Ok, some nations wouldn't be able to play as they don't have full tech trees, but why deny the rest?

 

From the very first day I started playing this game I never liked that my German heavies were fighting along side American tanks and I'd love a mode where this didn't happen. Much like Grand Battles it could be opt in, even better you could also select it as an option liked a ranked battle to guarantee you get in.

 

I cannot be the only one wanting this right? I wonder if there is enough support out there for it?



anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #2 Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:41 AM

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View PostWraithRaider, on 02 January 2018 - 09:30 AM, said:

Anyone remember we had this for about a patch? Nation v Nation. No, not that terrible "Historical battle" mode, but proper nation v nation.

 

I'm not sure why they removed it, I expect something to do with national game balance, I suspect the Russians won more games, I don't know. But frankly, the game has moved on a lot since then, more nations tech trees have been fleshed out, France has non autoloaders etc. Ok, some nations wouldn't be able to play as they don't have full tech trees, but why deny the rest?

 

From the very first day I started playing this game I never liked that my German heavies were fighting along side American tanks and I'd love a mode where this didn't happen. Much like Grand Battles it could be opt in, even better you could also select it as an option liked a ranked battle to guarantee you get in.

 

I cannot be the only one wanting this right? I wonder if there is enough support out there for it?

 

It would show balance issues. (Most important reason for cancelling the project).

 

 



I_Gutmensch_Deluxe_I #3 Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:49 AM

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Balance wasn't great but i liked Confrontation mode quite a lot.

JocMeister #4 Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:53 AM

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Yeah...

 

Except WG can´t even balance tanks within the same tier..even less so with +2 MM. Imagine them having to balance tanks between nations as well? Not going to work. 



WraithRaider #5 Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:57 AM

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View PostJocMeister, on 02 January 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

Yeah...

 

Except WG can´t even balance tanks within the same tier..even less so with +2 MM. Imagine them having to balance tanks between nations as well? Not going to work. 

 

That's why it'd be opt in...

Eaglax #6 Posted 02 January 2018 - 10:15 AM

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they were removed because they were unbalanced AF....

Comrade_Renamon #7 Posted 02 January 2018 - 10:23 AM

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Afaik it was removed because of huge balance issues, some of the weaknesses some nations have really come into play if you consider the player base you are dealing with. It was also when the Waffle E 100 was still at large, according to win rate graphs of that period (found it on the old For The Record) it looked like this (I skipped T1-T3 because of small data set and because meh):

T4: UK, USA, USSR massively outperformed the rest (France were doing really badly, not surprised, the AMX 40 is there)

T5: USA, USSR and France in the lead with the USA at least performing 5% better than the USSR (Germany doing quite bad here)

T6: USA top dog, USSR second once again, Germany worst

T7: USA and UK top, France is worse than Germany by a few %

T8: USA and Germany in the lead, but the difference between all the nations is within 3-5% around 50%

T9: Germany and USA, but the Germans start to outperform everyone by a big margin (3-4%)

T10: Germany and USA, the gap becomes bigger at around 8% between the two. Again this was with the Waffle still in the game and no huge buffs that happened to German vehicles are in. Also USSR second worst #Russianbias

Bonus mention that France after T8 just simply got annihilated with a win rate difference of 15-18% between the top dog. This was only the VBaddict data so take it as you will. 

 

It might seem different now as tanks changed, back in those times the French had no 'proper' heavy tank to soak up damage. It was also interesting because it showed clearly that the tiers where there were obviously powerful vehicles were showed on the results (like T4, the AMX 40 is just hopeless while the Brits have the Matilda there).



Balc0ra #8 Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:23 AM

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View PostJocMeister, on 02 January 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

Except WG can´t even balance tanks within the same tier..even less so with +2 MM. Imagine them having to balance tanks between nations as well? Not going to work. 

 

On some tiers, some nations would always suffer more then others. Regardless of how perfect the balance is. As most nations have a role in focus on some classes etc. Germans are snipers, Russians are brawlers, UK had fast support and the US were Jack of all trades. Did not work to well. Not only that, but people played some tanks in hopes to get that mode. On tier 6 US games were full of Hellcats, UK games were full of Cromwell's that flanked and bullied down 3601's and V39's. Or tier 7's full of T29's and T20's vs Tiger's and Panther's. One hull down tank vs a Support HT's etc.  Or Russian brawlers vs France that is mostly just paper tanks. That's why it failed. As then you had to balance all tanks across nations to the same role for that to work more so then balance on the same tier.

Edited by Balc0ra, 02 January 2018 - 11:24 AM.


lord_chipmonk #9 Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:24 AM

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The only game mode I have ever disabled. 

qpranger #10 Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:28 AM

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Yea, I want this mode.

Wieder geht es gegen England ...



WraithRaider #11 Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:41 AM

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View PostComrade_Renamon, on 02 January 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Afaik it was removed because of huge balance issues, some of the weaknesses some nations have really come into play if you consider the player base you are dealing with. It was also when the Waffle E 100 was still at large, according to win rate graphs of that period (found it on the old For The Record) it looked like this (I skipped T1-T3 because of small data set and because meh):

T4: UK, USA, USSR massively outperformed the rest (France were doing really badly, not surprised, the AMX 40 is there)

T5: USA, USSR and France in the lead with the USA at least performing 5% better than the USSR (Germany doing quite bad here)

T6: USA top dog, USSR second once again, Germany worst

T7: USA and UK top, France is worse than Germany by a few %

T8: USA and Germany in the lead, but the difference between all the nations is within 3-5% around 50%

T9: Germany and USA, but the Germans start to outperform everyone by a big margin (3-4%)

T10: Germany and USA, the gap becomes bigger at around 8% between the two. Again this was with the Waffle still in the game and no huge buffs that happened to German vehicles are in. Also USSR second worst #Russianbias

Bonus mention that France after T8 just simply got annihilated with a win rate difference of 15-18% between the top dog. This was only the VBaddict data so take it as you will. 

 

It might seem different now as tanks changed, back in those times the French had no 'proper' heavy tank to soak up damage. It was also interesting because it showed clearly that the tiers where there were obviously powerful vehicles were showed on the results (like T4, the AMX 40 is just hopeless while the Brits have the Matilda there).

 

That's incredibly useful thanks. I do wonder how the changes made since would affect this.

 

Also, is it just me that doesn't care that balance isn't 100%? I mean, what happened to a challenge? If French have a harder time and you win as the French then what an achievement right?



lord_chipmonk #12 Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:45 AM

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View PostWraithRaider, on 02 January 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

 

Also, is it just me that doesn't care that balance isn't 100%? I mean, what happened to a challenge? If French have a harder time and you win as the French then what an achievement right?

 

Thing is, it made matches incredibly boring. At tier 6, you would see a sea of Hellcats (this was pre nerf) and KV-1S (again, pre nerf) and nothing else, just to pick out a particular example. Imagine how fun such matches were.  



Hamsterkicker #13 Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:54 AM

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Same disaster as Historical battles..

lord_chipmonk #14 Posted 02 January 2018 - 12:18 PM

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View PostHamsterkicker, on 02 January 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

Same disaster as Historical battles..

 

I found historical battles at least fun.

Balc0ra #15 Posted 02 January 2018 - 01:03 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 02 January 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

 

I found historical battles at least fun.

 

It was not bad and I had fun with it. Issue there was that 90% waiting for it all wanted to play the same tank. And some tanks like the Tiger II only had 2 slots pr game etc. And when 300 of the 330 waiting for a game are in Tiger II's. It's not gonna work to well.

Geno1isme #16 Posted 02 January 2018 - 01:21 PM

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View PostWraithRaider, on 02 January 2018 - 12:41 PM, said:

Also, is it just me that doesn't care that balance isn't 100%? I mean, what happened to a challenge? If French have a harder time and you win as the French then what an achievement right?

 

You need to see the bigger picture: If one group of tank clearly outclasses its competition than more people will pick those tanks, eventually leading to a monoculture.

 

Like at T7 there were practically only two competitive tanks for confrontation mode: Tiger and T29, all other tanks were just cannon fodder. Russian teams were just obliterated by them, and French/British T7 teams would have likely committed suizide at game start if there'd been any. At T8 you could get some really frustrating setups with like 10 ISU-152 on one side. And with the template-MM the balancing issue would become even more severe, as everyone picking a non-standard tank class would have to endure massively increased queue times (due to mirroring rules). And with fails like the Defender or the Type 5 and overpowered tanks like SuperConqueror or Badger the balancing problems would also become more severe.

 

If that mode ever makes it back I'd assume it will not be based on single nations but nation groups based on the three majors, e.g. axis, allies and the communist block to reduce the balancing problems somewhat.



SlyMeerkat #17 Posted 02 January 2018 - 01:21 PM

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sure, anything that brings more variety in to the game would be great :)

lord_chipmonk #18 Posted 02 January 2018 - 01:42 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 02 January 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

It was not bad and I had fun with it. Issue there was that 90% waiting for it all wanted to play the same tank. And some tanks like the Tiger II only had 2 slots pr game etc. And when 300 of the 330 waiting for a game are in Tiger II's. It's not gonna work to well.

 

Oh yeah, I know there were significant problems with the game mode. 

Comrade_Renamon #19 Posted 02 January 2018 - 01:52 PM

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View PostWraithRaider, on 02 January 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

 

That's incredibly useful thanks. I do wonder how the changes made since would affect this.

 

Also, is it just me that doesn't care that balance isn't 100%? I mean, what happened to a challenge? If French have a harder time and you win as the French then what an achievement right?

 

My assumption would be that it shifted in certain tiers (T10, the loss of the WaffleE100 would likely be felt, but at the same time the Maus got super buffed, new Super Heavies entered at lower tiers too), but it would, over time get the same result as before, people would only play the most well rounded/strongest tanks in the tier.

Not all tanks/nations need to be equal but people hate playing the underdog, that is why Historical battles failed big time, 125 tigers waiting in line because nobody wanted to be the T-34/Sherman fodder for them. Coordinated teams could of course overcome the advantage in armour and firepower (as you had numbers), but it was just not fun at all.



qpranger #20 Posted 02 January 2018 - 02:32 PM

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View PostSlyMeerkat, on 02 January 2018 - 02:21 PM, said:

sure, anything that brings more variety in to the game would be great :)

 

How about anti-tank mines disguised as meerkats?




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