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A History Lesson Please


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TungstenHitman #1 Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:06 PM

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Quick question,

 

In regards to mm, I'm rather forgetful and forget how it used to be before the 3-5-7 system was implemented. I read posts about how mm has tanks being bottom tier all the time and how tier8 is broken and almost unplayable for most regular tier8 tanks because they are mostly vs OP tier8 premiums like Defenders and Patriots etc while also constantly vs tier9 and 10.

 

How was it different before this patch? I remember it could be 3 tier8 Vs 6 tier9 and 6 tier10, and worse so, is this more of a power creep premium tank thing or Vs buffered superheavies thing like when your using a regular medium tank and you have to face a VK, a Maus and a Type5? Where or what exactly has it gone wrong? I kinda forgot how things used to be, how was it any better before? I recently ground out a tier9 Leopard and AMX30 and honestly, I didn't encounter any problems along the way really Inc at tier8 but that said, I was using light tanks for those grinds so maybe the problem is more when using other classes?



Balc0ra #2 Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:15 PM

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It's true that people have always complained that tier 8 MM is bad as they face tier X all the time, even before the current MM. But 3-5-7 still made it worse. Tho for my Pref MM tanks on tier 8. It's not tier 9 games that's the issue. It's the sheer flood of +0 games. And that's not ideal when half the team have armor you can't pen with the recent flood of tier 8 prem HT's and the VK 100.01 etc. So for my IS-6, it was indeed better before. Even if my M4 did come into a game with 15 tier 7 HT's on the enemy team, and 14 tier 7 HT's on my team. And me as the only tier 5. It was still better. 

 

Tho arguably 3-5-7 and 5-10 is still better for newer players on low tiers, and in stock tanks facing only 3 top tiers. VS being the only tier 4 on the team vs 8 tier 6 HT's.


Edited by Balc0ra, 08 January 2018 - 09:16 PM.


Dava_117 #3 Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:18 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 08 January 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

Quick question,

 

In regards to mm, I'm rather forgetful and forget how it used to be before the 3-5-7 system was implemented. I read posts about how mm has tanks being bottom tier all the time and how tier8 is broken and almost unplayable for most regular tier8 tanks because they are mostly vs OP tier8 premiums like Defenders and Patriots etc while also constantly vs tier9 and 10.

 

How was it different before this patch? I remember it could be 3 tier8 Vs 6 tier9 and 6 tier10, and worse so, is this more of a power creep premium tank thing or Vs buffered superheavies thing like when your using a regular medium tank and you have to face a VK, a Maus and a Type5? Where or what exactly has it gone wrong? I kinda forgot how things used to be, how was it any better before? I recently ground out a tier9 Leopard and AMX30 and honestly, I didn't encounter any problems along the way really Inc at tier8 but that said, I was using light tanks for those grinds so maybe the problem is more when using other classes?

 

I don't have particular problem too. I use HTs and with the new MM, I feel I can be relevant even as low tier. In my opinion, this MM is quite good.

Richthoffen #4 Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:21 PM

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tier 8 was fine until wg decided to scrap battle tier 12 (aka all tierX battle) because the queue time for tierX was to long, that made tier 8 bottom tier much more.

and leave it to wg to not fix the problem by re-instating battle tier 12 but come up with something difference to see If that works. tier X seems more popular these days  specially with the new nations and lights



Isharial #5 Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:37 PM

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I much prefer this MM over the old one, it has flaws, sure, and platoons when top tier are instant loss for the enemy team if they even so much as attempt to play as a small team, but as a whole, it is superior.

I say that because the teams, atleast tier wise, are balanced, there's no games that end up with 5 X, 9 IX, 1 VIII, vs 3 X, 7 IX and 5 VIII like the old MM would put together...  which was basically a steamrolling regardless of the tanks

or the dreaded 14 X, 1 VIII, vs 15 X.. because that was so fun being the tier 8 cannon fodder :facepalm:


 

its far more "allowing", you have Something you can shoot on equal terms, and things you can fight if your feeling brave enough!



sgtYester #6 Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:40 PM

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the amount of 3-5-7 u get is to much,

 

i would much rather see way more battles that are 5-10 or even same tier.   much more challeging and fun

 

but wont ever change.  ppl are spamming so much more gold now (=wg profit)



Dava_117 #7 Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:47 PM

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View PostsgtYester, on 08 January 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

the amount of 3-5-7 u get is to much,

 

i would much rather see way more battles that are 5-10 or even same tier.   much more challeging and fun

 

but wont ever change.  ppl are spamming so much more gold now (=wg profit)

 

Agree. I really enjoyed the first days of the new mm, when you got a lit of +0 and +1 mm.

_Bundesheer_ #8 Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:55 PM

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It is not only tier 8.

One week ago I was grinding Type T-34 and I had six games in a row as low tier 3/5/7 (!). I mean, should I have played 10,000 games to proove that statistically this was an exception?!

MrGimpSuit #9 Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:58 PM

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I like the MM just not the preferential Tier 8 MM that's kinda broken atm with mostly +0 games imo. Pref T7 MM is actually great the M/10 Is a little gem. Overall I like it just apart from the one issue as stated above. 

iztok #10 Posted 09 January 2018 - 08:54 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 08 January 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

In regards to mm, I'm rather forgetful and forget how it used to be before the 3-5-7 system was implemented.

I did a bit of statistics with my tier-6 tanks quite a while ago. When vs. tier-8, there usually were 5-6 tier-8 tanks to fight, and almost never less than 3. However tier-8 battles were not so regular. Now I fight them most of the time. :(



Agent_327 #11 Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:26 AM

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Well earlier on you could get +3 matches in your light tanks and you could easily have 5 arty's on each side. Ppl tend to forget that when they complain about the MM :teethhappy:

Homer_J #12 Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:42 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 08 January 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:

 

How was it different before this patch? I remember it could be 3 tier8 Vs 6 tier9 and 6 tier10, and worse so, 

You could be the only bottom tier tank in a battle with no mid tier tanks.

 

i.e. your tier 6 in a team of tier 8 with only tier 8 on the other team.

 

Or if you were a light tank, tier 5 in an all tier 8 team.

 

But that was very rare and you would immediately rush to the forum to whine about it.

 

Whenever anyone did any proper analysis of tier distribution you were as often top tier as you were bottom.  The main difference now is that when you are bottom there are six other bottom tiers on your team where previously there might only be two or three.

 

Or do you want to go further back?  Back to when a tier IV light would be pitched against tier X?  Or even when it was one set of battles for tier I and II and one set for everyone else?



ZlatanArKung #13 Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:01 AM

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Old MM had you as top tier like 35-40%
Mid tier at 30-35%
Bottom tier at 30-35%
Or something.

It also had you as 1 of 4-5 bottom tiers in a majority of the games.

The chance of being only bottom tier was like sub 1%.

Geno1isme #14 Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:12 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 08 January 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

How was it different before this patch? I remember it could be 3 tier8 Vs 6 tier9 and 6 tier10, and worse so, is this more of a power creep premium tank thing or Vs buffered superheavies thing like when your using a regular medium tank and you have to face a VK, a Maus and a Type5? Where or what exactly has it gone wrong?

 

The old MM simly had much more freedom when assembling teams. While this sometimes could result in very unbalanced teams it also made the setups much more interesting. People keep reducing the discussion to top-tier vs. low-tier comparisons, but the change in concept had much wider consequences, with the recent "role-based" matchmaking being just the latest step toward a complete mirror matchmaking. And the latter is the core problem, even if many people will say that they appreciate a mirror matchmaking it will ultimately turn random games into a predictable and boring mess.

 

People complained about being low-tier in both variants, previously because they met many higher tier tanks in individual games, these days because they meet higher tier tanks in many games. That's never going to change, but also never was or is the real problem with the matchmaker, people just refused to learn how to play their tank effectively in those situations (and these days they have "learned" to just press 2 by default).

 

Of course the armor changes amplified the situation as the differences between support tanks and well armored vehicles as well as low-tiers and top-tiers became even wider. What used to be a +-2 MM is more a +-2.5MM in a 3-5-7 MM.



adameitas #15 Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:15 AM

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well back to those days mm was more "random" and had more "freedom". I think they just went too far in control of "randomless". Before 9.16 you never knew what mm you gonna get, now you more or less know.. and that isnt good in many cases.. Also removing t12 mm was quite stupid.. it was added with a reason... And platooning was real joy now i rarely platoon bc it is like to play stock tank when you can play it top..  I think wg went to bad direction.. I saw tanks balance as main mm problem not tier mm.

Kozzy #16 Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:32 AM

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Ah the good old days of WoT, why can't we get great MM like it was back then?

 

Spoiler

 

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TungstenHitman #17 Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:01 PM

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LOL omg ya I totally forgot being a tier5 Chaffee in a 29 tier8 battle, whoooya! and those fail toons where you would have a tier3 light tank tooned with 2 tier6 tanks for reasons unknown. If the mm is becoming more of team duplication or mirrored as you say, that wouldn't necessarily be as dull and predictably boring as you might first think because..

 

1. Teams start on different sides of a map obviously so the same models of tanks will distribute very differently and undertake their battle approach totally different to the same tank on the other side of the map.

 

2. Experience and Skill differences of course. Two teams, each has a Type5. One teams Type5 plays it "as it should be played" while the other camps bush at the back sniping with the TDs. Or even worse, take a map like Malinovka, both sides have a Type 64, one teams Type64 player scouts like a boss with bags of experience and map awareness while the other teams Type 64 player is a new player, hasn't a clue what to do and chooses to hide at the back taking pop shots where it's nice and safe, that's going to be a painful experience for his team and they will lose and lose heavily, even though both teams would have same tanks.

 

I think having an mm where both teams get the same tanks would be a bit dull too and with more of a mix, we at least get the illusion of more variables and more drama like when one team gets a couple of E25 tooners and the other team has a lkv 90 and a T25 AT and we think "hmmm, that's not a fair trade!!" but then the E25 players turn out to be really bad lol. 

 

Another thing, for all the changes made, reducing arty numbers to 3 per team, the new mm system... how come there are so many God damn one sided slaughters now? Was the one sided battles just as common before now? I remember they were always there and they always will be but were they as regular? Maybe they're not that regular and I'm just more aware of it when it happens because it's on my mind?



Ubervold #18 Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:10 PM

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Another problem now when you are not top tier in a 3-5-7 battle and your team is blessed with a plutoon of stick-wielding-monkeys as top tier and the enemy teams has a good tier X plutoon you are pretty much screwed.

The only thing you can do is try do do as much damage as possible before you, more often then not, loose the battle.

 

Before 3-5-7 there could be a few more tier X that in a way could balance the monkeys.

 

Not saying the we did not have this issue before 3-5-7, we did, but not like we have now.



Geno1isme #19 Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:52 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 09 January 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

Another thing, for all the changes made, reducing arty numbers to 3 per team, the new mm system... how come there are so many God damn one sided slaughters now? Was the one sided battles just as common before now? I remember they were always there and they always will be but were they as regular? Maybe they're not that regular and I'm just more aware of it when it happens because it's on my mind?

 

You actually already answered it yourself a few lines earlier:

 

View PostTungstenHitman, on 09 January 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

2. Experience and Skill differences of course. Two teams, each has a Type5. One teams Type5 plays it "as it should be played" while the other camps bush at the back sniping with the TDs. Or even worse, take a map like Malinovka, both sides have a Type 64, one teams Type64 player scouts like a boss with bags of experience and map awareness while the other teams Type 64 player is a new player, hasn't a clue what to do and chooses to hide at the back taking pop shots where it's nice and safe, that's going to be a painful experience for his team and they will lose and lose heavily, even though both teams would have same tanks.

 

If you more or less mirror the teams by equipment obviously the remaining factors have a much heavier impact on results: player skill and RNG. Assuming RNG is equal for both teams and top tier players having a higher influence than low-tier players the template MM amplifies landslide results if there is a noticable skill difference on top tier players between teams. Depending on the map you can replace "top tier" with specific roles like "scout" or "super-heavy".


Edited by Geno1isme, 09 January 2018 - 01:53 PM.


HassenderZerhacker #20 Posted 09 January 2018 - 02:10 PM

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View PostUbervold, on 09 January 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

Another problem now when you are not top tier in a 3-5-7 battle and your team is blessed with a plutoon of stick-wielding-monkeys as top tier and the enemy teams has a good tier X plutoon you are pretty much screwed.

The only thing you can do is try do do as much damage as possible before you, more often then not, loose the battle.

 

Before 3-5-7 there could be a few more tier X that in a way could balance the monkeys.

 

Not saying the we did not have this issue before 3-5-7, we did, but not like we have now.

 

the issue was present before and having more tier 10 tanks in a team of course reduces the risk of getting 3 top tier bots in your team vs. 3 unicums in the other team.

But in all honesty, roflstomps were as common then as they are now, and they will continue to happen as long as the MM continues to produce grossly unbalanced teams in terms of player skill.






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