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Rhm. Pz. VS 13 105


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SyJoMa #1 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:13 PM

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This is a bit of a rant post but I have 2 questions, would like to know your take on them....

So, yesterday I picked up my first X tier scout - the Rheinmetall Panzerwagen. Sure I was told it's the worst of them and X tier scouts in general are quite bad, but....

So far I think that Rhm is somewhat balanced with the other X lights. Imho it could perhaps use some buffs to compansate the huge size and 0 armor, but it is what it is.... My biggest grief is facing the flood of 13 105's. They are present in 90% of the games. AMX's alpha is huge compared to my puny 105mm gun and it ofcourse has a clip. It is small, quite sneaky and can hit target just as well in the current meta. I can't scout because a 13 105 will rush and clip me, I'm useless as a sniper with 320 alpha... At the moment I have tried to scout a bit, snipe a bit and often to anti-scout 13 105's with HE ammo (from a safe position ofcourse, tend to avoid any stupid rushes).. So my question being...

Should AMX 13 105 be NERFED to the level of other X scouts or am i missing something here??? Sure all X scouts can be UP, but my main concern here is the balance between them. Wth is Rhm good for?

Another question is credit income... I'm losing credits VERY fast. Way more than any other X tank I have (apart from E100 with HEAT, but thats understandable)... Main deal of credits comes from damage, and with this dpm and platform i am really struggling to do damage and even a 4k dmg game with win (and i survived) only brought me +5k creds.. Maybe X scouts credit income should be tweaked to suit the role WG wants them to play?...

Thoughts? 

/rant

Edit: My grief is very uneven performance of X scouts, you can suggest to buff/nerf/rework whatever suits you.

Edited by SyJoMa, 16 January 2018 - 07:41 AM.


commer #2 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:17 PM

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View PostSyJoMa, on 15 January 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

This is a bit of a rant post but I have 2 questions, would like to know your take on them....

So, yesterday I picked up my first X tier scout - the Rheinmetall Panzerwagen. Sure I was told it's the worst of them and X tier scouts in general are quite bad, but....

So far I think that Rhm is somewhat balanced with the other X lights. Imho it could perhaps use some buffs to compansate the huge size and 0 armor, but it is what it is.... My biggest grief is facing the flood of 13 105's. They are present in 90% of the games. AMX's alpha is huge compared to my puny 105mm gun and it ofcourse has a clip. It is small, quite sneaky and can hit target just as well in the current meta. I can't scout because a 13 105 will rush and clip me, I'm useless as a sniper with 320 alpha... At the moment I have tried to scout a bit, snipe a bit and often to anti-scout 13 105's with HE ammo (from a safe position ofcourse, tend to avoid any stupid rushes).. So my question being...

Should AMX 13 105 be NERFED to the level of other X scouts or am i missing something here??? Sure all X scouts can be UP, but my main concern here is the balance between them. Wth is Rhm good for?

Another question is credit income... I'm losing credits VERY fast. Way more than any other X tank I have (apart from E100 with HEAT, but thats understandable)... Main deal of credits comes from damage, and with this dpm and platform i am really struggling to do damage and even a 4k dmg game with win (and i survived) only brought me +5k creds.. Maybe X scouts credit income should be tweaked to suit the role WG wants them to play?...

Thoughts? 

/rant

 

You are insane. 13 105 should not be nerfed. All scouts should be buffed. You alone aknowledge scouts are UP and you want to make them more UP. Where is the logic in that. Even the 13 105 could use buffs. 

Laur_Balaur_XD #3 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:22 PM

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13-105 should be nerfed? Are you out of your mind?

That crap turns like a superheavy and has the gun handling of a arty...



SyJoMa #4 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:24 PM

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View Postcommer, on 15 January 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

 

You are insane. 13 105 should not be nerfed. All scouts should be buffed. You alone aknowledge scouts are UP and you want to make them more UP. Where is the logic in that. Even the 13 105 could use buffs. 

 

My main question was that is 13 105 OP compared to other scouts? First thing I would like to see is every X scout on par with each other. that way they can play the scouting / harrassing game. All scouts being UP is another topic
 

View PostIulian_ro, on 15 January 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

13-105 should be nerfed? Are you out of your mind?

That crap turns like a superheavy and has the gun handling of a arty...

 

Rhm isn't too agile either. Gun handling seems ok, but with the current maps I dont see 13 105's having any problem hitting me just as well as I hit them. Imho I dont feel traverse makes up for 390 alpha clip. 

And no, I'm not insane or out of my mind. I am asking because the first impression I have on fighting 13 105's with Rhm is that i'm most of the time the underdog
 

Edited by Daxeno, 15 January 2018 - 03:39 PM.


djuro900 #5 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:32 PM

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As others sad it shouldnt be nerfed,on the contrary all tier 10 lights should be buffed. Thats why tier 9 in my opinion is currently best in game because arguably all tanks are balanced,lights,meds,heavies,td-s

Dr_Oolen #6 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:33 PM

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View PostSyJoMa, on 15 January 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

 

Rhm isn't too agile either. Gun handling seems ok, but with the current maps I dont see 13 105's having any problem hitting me just as well as I hit them. Imho I dont feel traverse makes up for 390 alpha clip. 

And no, I'm not insane or out of my mind. I am asking because the first impression I have on fighting 13 105's with Rhm is that i'm most of the time the underdog

 

Maybe you feel like an underdog in rhm cancerwagon because its currently the worst t10 tank in the game along with leopard? Maybe you feel like an underdog in it because when it got buffed it actually got nerfed and had/has worse stats after the "buff" than it had before the buff? While all the other buffed lights actually were made marginally better (except for 131-2)? The tank as it is would be pretty bad even as t9 with exactly the same stats.

Edited by Dr_Oolen, 15 January 2018 - 03:34 PM.


commer #7 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:34 PM

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View PostSyJoMa, on 15 January 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

 

My main question was that is 13 105 OP compared to other scouts? First thing I would like to see is every X scout on par with each other. that way they can play the scouting / harrassing game. All scouts being UP is another topic

 

Tanks are not OP compared to a narrow subclass but to ALL TANKS. A tank is OP when it significantly increases your win rate no matter your own personal skill. 13 105 doesn't do that. 

 

Also if all scouts are UP nerfing another one is not good for the game. If your change would take place instead of having some really bad scouts and some a bit bad scouts you would have only really bad scouts. This is illogical.

 

Also judging 13 105 as OP only because it's a great counterscout is stupid. Not to mention it's clip potential is still too small to kill you. Tanks in the game should be judged by their potential to influence game results not by their potential to deny a position to one specific tank. This is faulty logic. 


Edited by commer, 15 January 2018 - 03:34 PM.


Graeme0 #8 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:57 PM

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All lights should return to +3 mm and nerfed.

 

This will force them to actually do the scout / spotter role and stop them playing as mediums

 

 

Just my tuppence



SyJoMa #9 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:02 PM

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View Postcommer, on 15 January 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

 

Tanks are not OP compared to a narrow subclass but to ALL TANKS. A tank is OP when it significantly increases your win rate no matter your own personal skill. 13 105 doesn't do that. 

 

Also if all scouts are UP nerfing another one is not good for the game. If your change would take place instead of having some really bad scouts and some a bit bad scouts you would have only really bad scouts. This is illogical.

 

Also judging 13 105 as OP only because it's a great counterscout is stupid. Not to mention it's clip potential is still too small to kill you. Tanks in the game should be judged by their potential to influence game results not by their potential to deny a position to one specific tank. This is faulty logic. 

 

Honestly I think one scout being way better compared to others is a bigger problem than scouts as a class being UP in a way or another. The reason for this is that with the current MM both teams will have equal amount of scouts. So if scouts are UP, both teams are handicapped equally. Sure a scout player might find this frustrating but not necesarily. With the old +/-3 MM the scouts were always UP - more than today. But if all scouts on ,say tier VI are balanced properly, they can influence the game in their own way. Doing better job as UP vehicle than the enemy UP vehicle. Sure, carrying games might not be possible, but I see that's how WG wants it.

Ideal situation would ofcourse be that each class is very good in its own way and able to carry games in it's own way. BUT this is not gonna happend anytime soon. Meanwhile I would just like to see balance between equal class vehicles on a given tier. 

commer #10 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:03 PM

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View PostGraeme0, on 15 January 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

All lights should return to +3 mm and nerfed.

 

This will force them to actually do the scout / spotter role and stop them playing as mediums

 

 

Just my tuppence

 

You should maybe learn to play. Scouts spot as much as they used too, simply the maps don't allow for spotting and some people are bad at spotting. Not to mention I'm a very scouting focused player and the reason why people don't scout is often idiots from your own team will shoot you when you wait for an OPENING to scout the enemy team without dying and being useless or not shoot what's spotted since they are too busy eating crayons. 

commer #11 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:06 PM

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View PostSyJoMa, on 15 January 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

 

Honestly I think one scout being way better compared to others is a bigger problem than scouts as a class being UP in a way or another. The reason for this is that with the current MM both teams will have equal amount of scouts. So if scouts are UP, both teams are handicapped equally. Sure a scout player might find this frustrating but not necesarily. With the old +/-3 MM the scouts were always UP - more than today. But if all scouts on ,say tier VI are balanced properly, they can influence the game in their own way. Doing better job as UP vehicle than the enemy UP vehicle. Sure, carrying games might not be possible, but I see that's how WG wants it.

Ideal situation would ofcourse be that each class is very good in its own way and able to carry games in it's own way. BUT this is not gonna happend anytime soon. Meanwhile I would just like to see balance between equal class vehicles on a given tier. 

 

So you think when all scouts become crapit's ok? Also AMX 13 105 is not much better than other scouts. Hell if one yolos you it can't kill you so on his reload you will kill him. You can't judge a tank in a 15 vs 15 game on a single very specific 1 vs 1 scenario at the begining of the game. What matters is how good a tank is at wining games. Not at making one player uncomfortable.

 

 



SyJoMa #12 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:17 PM

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View Postcommer, on 15 January 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

 

So you think when all scouts become crapit's ok? Also AMX 13 105 is not much better than other scouts. Hell if one yolos you it can't kill you so on his reload you will kill him. You can't judge a tank in a 15 vs 15 game on a single very specific 1 vs 1 scenario at the begining of the game. What matters is how good a tank is at wining games. Not at making one player uncomfortable.

 

 

 

Ehh... I'll quote myself: "Ideal situation would ofcourse be that each class is very good in its own way and able to carry games in it's own way. BUT this is not gonna happend anytime soon. 
Meanwhile I would just like to see balance between equal class vehicles on a given tier. "

You say 13 105 is not much better. Still, AMX 13 105 is best X light in following categories: DPG, Damage dealt/ Damage taken, KPG, Wn8 and second place in winrate. Rhm is the last in pretty much all of those. Other tier X lights' placing varies from category to category. I would assume this means 13 105 is indeed quite good (as far as X scouts go) and Rhm is not. Also i would assume that the other X scouts are somewhat balanced between each others as their rankings in these key categories varies. Maybe?

EDIT: And to clarify, IF 13 105 is better than other scouts I dont really care if it's nerfed OR all others are buffed. I just would like to see balance between scouts (to start with)

Edited by SyJoMa, 15 January 2018 - 04:21 PM.


__H3H3__ #13 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:20 PM

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View PostGraeme0, on 15 January 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

All lights should return to +3 mm and nerfed.

 

This will force them to actually do the scout / spotter role and stop them playing as mediums

 

 

Just my tuppence

 

Is that you Steve? (Steve the IS-7 driver)

Edited by another_Ghost_Shell, 15 January 2018 - 04:21 PM.


commer #14 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:27 PM

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View PostSyJoMa, on 15 January 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

 

Ehh... I'll quote myself: "Ideal situation would ofcourse be that each class is very good in its own way and able to carry games in it's own way. BUT this is not gonna happend anytime soon. 
Meanwhile I would just like to see balance between equal class vehicles on a given tier. "

You say 13 105 is not much better. Still, AMX 13 105 is best X light in following categories: DPG, Damage dealt/ Damage taken, KPG, Wn8 and second place in winrate. Rhm is the last in pretty much all of those. Other tier X lights' placing varies from category to category. I would assume this means 13 105 is indeed quite good (as far as X scouts go) and Rhm is not. Also i would assume that the other X scouts are somewhat balanced between each others as their rankings in these key categories varies. Maybe?

 

So if you go to a doctor and his solution to a broken leg is to break your other leg so you won't stress it too much and feel equal you will say to yourself "well it's not idea but it works for now" ? Because that's what you are suggesting. Not fixing the problem but making it bigger just to be even. 

 

As for 13 105 - of course it's highest in DPG since it's an autoloader. Autoloaders have a higher DPG than same tier tanks even when they are not OP (look at t57) 13 105 is NOT quite good. It's just not super crap. Just a bit crap. Seriously you haven't even tried the tank and you are judging it only because it shot you a few times. You are no different to people who cried that Foch B is OP because it erased them a few times (see any Foch b's now?).

 

Also what matters is WIN RATE so 13 105 being second doesn't make it the best but 2nd best. I really like 13 105 but it's not a very strong tank. Look at my recent stats and then look at my 13 105 stats to see that it's not strong despite the fact I run a 5 skill crew + food in my 13 105. T100LT is easily a better scout and Sheridan a better damage dealer for skilled players. 13 105 is a 2nd best scout and 2nd best damage dealer for skilled players so it's 2nd for win rate. It's great for doing damage for bad players because bad players can yolo, empty their clip and still get the same DPG as their average T10 tank. To illustrate to you how bad the 13 105 is - I am 315th on the server (of all time) in mine with 54% win rate and 2000 dpg... Yeah a tank with stats like that should be nerfed

 

 

PS. It's funny you complain about the RHM when you have higher WR in it than your other t10 tanks. 



SyJoMa #15 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:39 PM

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View Postcommer, on 15 January 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

 

So if you go to a doctor and his solution to a broken leg is to break your other leg so you won't stress it too much and feel equal you will say to yourself "well it's not idea but it works for now" ? Because that's what you are suggesting. Not fixing the problem but making it bigger just to be even.  etc...


Lol sure if you want to put it that way. I'm quite tired of repeating myself if you're just too agitated to really understand. The anger is strong within you my padawan. Join the dark side.

Buddy... I have played less than 50 games in Rhm... 

So you are admitting 105 is better than other scouts. Thank you for your input. Then I think it should be brought to the level or others or others should be brought to its level. Buff LT's as a class, Nerd them as a class - I dont really care.


Edited by SyJoMa, 15 January 2018 - 04:40 PM.


_T_1_T_4_N_0_ #16 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:42 PM

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The one thing about the Rheinmetall Panzerwagen is how unstable it is compared to the RU, I thought the SPIC & HWK where bad for tipping but its like this thing has a lead turret and it likes to sink that way.
The HE ammo on this things is pretty awesome, but it could do with some buffs, but wow it tips on such minuscule random events.
I am 217th in this months tank rating with a woeful 47% WR & just got my first mark so don't think its just us.
Then again set it up as complete view assist scout as thought that would be ace in Grand Battles unfortunately took me 107 battles to get my first one. 

Edited by DumbNumpty, 15 January 2018 - 04:48 PM.


commer #17 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:44 PM

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View PostSyJoMa, on 15 January 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:


Lol sure if you want to put it that way. I'm quite tired of repeating myself if you're just too agitated to really understand. The anger is strong within you my padawan. Join the dark side.

Buddy... I have played less than 50 games in Rhm... 

So you are admitting 105 is better than other scouts. Thank you for your input. Then I think it should be brought to the level or others or others should be brought to its level. Buff LT's as a class, Nerd them as a class - I dont really care.

 

I am not agitated. You just keep repeating yourself and you are ignoring what I say. 2nd best out of 5 tanks is not "better than other scouts". Also you keep evaluating the 13 105 in a very specific situation without a) thinking about it's overal win rate b) playing it. You are cherry picking whatever suits your argument to nerf a tank to be as bad as other tanks when it takes the same amount of effort to buff those tanks. So not only your analysis of the problem is wrong, you are also stubbornly avoiding certain parts of the discussion and you are suggesting the wrong solution only because some 13 105 ruined your game. It's just generic crying. 

soul3ater #18 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:48 PM

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why would you suggest the nerf of one of the two most fun tier 10 scouts, the other one being T100LT.

 

nonsense!



_T_1_T_4_N_0_ #19 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:54 PM

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View Postsoul3ater, on 15 January 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

why would you suggest the nerf of one of the two most fun tier 10 scouts, the other one being T100LT.

 

nonsense!

 

Dunno and not moaning but prob is the worst from stats as haven't got the others.
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Apols yeah ignore as yeah AMX = 1 or 2 but RHM is a bit stinky
 

Edited by DumbNumpty, 15 January 2018 - 04:56 PM.


commer #20 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:54 PM

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View Postsoul3ater, on 15 January 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

why would you suggest the nerf of one of the two most fun tier 10 scouts, the other one being T100LT.

 

nonsense!

 

Because it was not nice to him. We should nerf all tanks that shoot him




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