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Whats the point in super heavies?


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ViciousWilhelm #1 Posted 22 January 2018 - 02:27 PM

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Vk100.01P, Mäuschen, Japanese sumos all those mighty big fortresses. Whats the point in them?

Those slow monster tanks that make you go push that 2 key nearly immediately when facing them. Should there be a limit for gold ammo in random battles is what goes through my head sometimes.

Yes yes gold ammo is part of the game and everyone can use it but how frustrating does it get when you get your own super heavy having the most retarded smile thinking that now you are going to make people scared. Scared of what? Scared for spending few extra credits to kill you pretty easily? Shouldnt super hevies make you run and hide like a little sissy girl?

The truth about super hevies are that they are just slow tanks with no armor when it comes to penetration with gold ammunition which is the only type of ammo you will see in the hitlog.

Tip is to avoid those tanks at all costs if you get frustrated easily when seeing lots of gold ammo spammed.

I kinda understand gold spamming in tier 10 only matches since quite many tier 10 tanks doesnt have the penetration for even a mediocre armor.

I myself load 5 gold ammo for every tank I play and I quite rarely use them even if I am at the bottom. Why? Because I like the challenge of knowledge for weakspots and hitting them. Thats not the case for many out there. Should it be?



commer #2 Posted 22 January 2018 - 02:45 PM

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View PostVilluu, on 22 January 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Vk100.01P, Mäuschen, Japanese sumos all those mighty big fortresses. Whats the point in them?

Those slow monster tanks that make you go push that 2 key nearly immediately when facing them. Should there be a limit for gold ammo in random battles is what goes through my head sometimes.

Yes yes gold ammo is part of the game and everyone can use it but how frustrating does it get when you get your own super heavy having the most retarded smile thinking that now you are going to make people scared. Scared of what? Scared for spending few extra credits to kill you pretty easily? Shouldnt super hevies make you run and hide like a little sissy girl?

The truth about super hevies are that they are just slow tanks with no armor when it comes to penetration with gold ammunition which is the only type of ammo you will see in the hitlog.

Tip is to avoid those tanks at all costs if you get frustrated easily when seeing lots of gold ammo spammed.

I kinda understand gold spamming in tier 10 only matches since quite many tier 10 tanks doesnt have the penetration for even a mediocre armor.

I myself load 5 gold ammo for every tank I play and I quite rarely use them even if I am at the bottom. Why? Because I like the challenge of knowledge for weakspots and hitting them. Thats not the case for many out there. Should it be?

 

They are mostly here so bad players complain OP tanks are not OP enough. VK1001p is overperforming for players of all skill. Yeah it's boring to play but it is still so good because of alpha, hp, armor and view range that it wins more than your average win rate for almost any player. Same can be said about the super broken Type5. 

 

Also can you tell me what weakspots there are on the Type5, Chrystler, Defender, Vk1001p or that new Rus TD that will come. I really want the challenge to find their weakspots. Especially when in a lower tier tank like a 220pen med or t8 med vs VK1001p which doesn't have enough pen to pen the cupola. I'm super curious.



ViciousWilhelm #3 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:05 PM

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View Postcommer, on 22 January 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

 

They are mostly here so bad players complain OP tanks are not OP enough. VK1001p is overperforming for players of all skill. Yeah it's boring to play but it is still so good because of alpha, hp, armor and view range that it wins more than your average win rate for almost any player. Same can be said about the super broken Type5. 

 

Also can you tell me what weakspots there are on the Type5, Chrystler, Defender, Vk1001p or that new Rus TD that will come. I really want the challenge to find their weakspots. Especially when in a lower tier tank like a 220pen med or t8 med vs VK1001p which doesn't have enough pen to pen the cupola. I'm super curious.

 

When it comes to the point where I cant pen something frontally, even weakspots that still doesnt make me load gold. I will either change position for better targets or try to find a way to flank those tanks. Its not rocket science. Sure they all are OP if you are stupid enough to go head on with  them if you have low AP penetration. No need to be toxic about it.



ZlatanArKung #4 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:08 PM

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View PostVilluu, on 22 January 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Vk100.01P, Mäuschen, Japanese sumos all those mighty big fortresses. Whats the point in them?

Those slow monster tanks that make you go push that 2 key nearly immediately when facing them. Should there be a limit for gold ammo in random battles is what goes through my head sometimes.

Yes yes gold ammo is part of the game and everyone can use it but how frustrating does it get when you get your own super heavy having the most retarded smile thinking that now you are going to make people scared. Scared of what? Scared for spending few extra credits to kill you pretty easily? Shouldnt super hevies make you run and hide like a little sissy girl?

The truth about super hevies are that they are just slow tanks with no armor when it comes to penetration with gold ammunition which is the only type of ammo you will see in the hitlog.

Tip is to avoid those tanks at all costs if you get frustrated easily when seeing lots of gold ammo spammed.

I kinda understand gold spamming in tier 10 only matches since quite many tier 10 tanks doesnt have the penetration for even a mediocre armor.

I myself load 5 gold ammo for every tank I play and I quite rarely use them even if I am at the bottom. Why? Because I like the challenge of knowledge for weakspots and hitting them. Thats not the case for many out there. Should it be?

Super heavies are currently the best performing tanks in game, and the best way to improve you WR without improving at the game.



commer #5 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:24 PM

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View PostVilluu, on 22 January 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

 

When it comes to the point where I cant pen something frontally, even weakspots that still doesnt make me load gold. I will either change position for better targets or try to find a way to flank those tanks. Its not rocket science. Sure they all are OP if you are stupid enough to go head on with  them if you have low AP penetration. No need to be toxic about it.

 

Sorry but no. They are OP because win rate stats show they are OP. Your personal opinion on them doesn't matter. What matters is server wide stats. If a tank boosts player win rate for players of all skill (so 46% average player does 49% and a 51% does 54% etc) then it's OP. Simple as that.

 

Also please don't try to paint yourself as a master tactician who knows better when you clearly don't as evidenced by your performance in tanks. Also you have very little experience in superheavies. All you have is the VKP and ONE Battle in the Mauschen. So you have no experience in playing tanks you claim to be an expert in.



Lord_Edge #6 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:24 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 22 January 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

Super heavies are currently the best performing tanks in game, and the best way to improve you WR without improving at the game.

The former may be true but the latter is mostly a myth, anyone who fails to improve will probably just quit playing SHTs before their WR noticeably improves.

 

Case in point, a few days ago I saw a T5H player drive casually round a corner into a pair of WZ HTs which I had already spotted, I pinged before he turned the corner to tell him that I was reloading so he knew I wouldn't be able to save him from the quick trip to the garage he was buying himself,  IIRC he got two shots off before meeting his end and only one connected for 3-400 damage.  A few days before that I saw another T5H go down in flames trying to dual an E100.  In both of those cases the players aregoing to realise that they can't just drive towards the enemy spamming the LMB and do well, and either improve or get fed up and switch to TDs/Arty.



commer #7 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:26 PM

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View PostLord_Edge, on 22 January 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

The former may be true but the latter is mostly a myth, anyone who fails to improve will probably just quit playing SHTs before their WR noticeably improves.

 

Case in point, a few days ago I saw a T5H player drive casually round a corner into a pair of WZ HTs which I had already spotted, I pinged before he turned the corner to tell him that I was reloading so he knew I wouldn't be able to save him from the quick trip to the garage he was buying himself,  IIRC he got two shots off before meeting his end and only one connected for 3-400 damage.  A few days before that I saw another T5H go down in flames trying to dual an E100.  In both of those cases the players aregoing to realise that they can't just drive towards the enemy spamming the LMB and do well, and either improve or get fed up and switch to TDs/Arty.

 

You miss the point. If a players strategy is cluelessly driving forward he will still live longer and shoot more in a SHT than any other tank. 

ZlatanArKung #8 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:29 PM

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View PostLord_Edge, on 22 January 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

The former may be true but the latter is mostly a myth, anyone who fails to improve will probably just quit playing SHTs before their WR noticeably improves.

 

Case in point, a few days ago I saw a T5H player drive casually round a corner into a pair of WZ HTs which I had already spotted, I pinged before he turned the corner to tell him that I was reloading so he knew I wouldn't be able to save him from the quick trip to the garage he was buying himself,  IIRC he got two shots off before meeting his end and only one connected for 3-400 damage.  A few days before that I saw another T5H go down in flames trying to dual an E100.  In both of those cases the players aregoing to realise that they can't just drive towards the enemy spamming the LMB and do well, and either improve or get fed up and switch to TDs/Arty.

Both are true.

A VK100P increase your WR by like 3-4% for example.

 

The Type 5 heavy also improves WR by like 3%.

 

Both compared to how well they do on average. Meaning, a 51% WR players gets on average 54%-55% WR in a VK100P.

 

The first Type 5 heavy player where terribly bad, and rightfully got punished. He should learn how to play.

the 2nd one have to little info.



Lord_Edge #9 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:30 PM

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View Postcommer, on 22 January 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

If a tank boosts player win rate for players of all skill (so 46% average player does 49% and a 51% does 54% etc) then it's OP. Simple as that.

Sorry to have to point out the obvious here, but the tanks in question are mostly tier-X, of course a players WR in them will be noticeably higher than their average WR, as the average WR covers all tanks of all tiers and the learning curve the player went on during their WoT career.

 

I.E according to your sig you have a career WR of 54% and a recent WR of 61%, by your logic that's just because the tanks you have been playing recently have boosted it not because you are better now than than you have been on average (when in reality you will be better now than your career average).



commer #10 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:33 PM

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View PostLord_Edge, on 22 January 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

Sorry to have to point out the obvious here, but the tanks in question are mostly tier-X, of course a players WR in them will be noticeably higher than their average WR, as the average WR covers all tanks of all tiers and the learning curve the player went on during their WoT career.

 

I.E according to your sig you have a career WR of 54% and a recent WR of 61%, by your logic that's just because the tanks you have been playing recently have boosted it not because you are better now than than you have been on average (when in reality you will be better now than your career average).

 

  Sorry but win rate curves don't confirm that. If that was true there would be more tanks at  tier10 that overperform acording to wr curves but it's not the case. This is mostly because many players struggle to do good in high tiers. There are many players who do good in t5-6 and then get progressively worse. It's a good observation though on your part so it's good you thought of that but it's countered by other factors as mentioned in this post.

Trostani #11 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:46 PM

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View Postcommer, on 22 January 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

 

You miss the point. If a players strategy is cluelessly driving forward he will still live longer and shoot more in a SHT than any other tank. 

OMG, SHTs are designed to tank and soak damage, so they SHOULD survive longer, for a price of worse guns, lower pen, DPM and/or accuracy. Unfortunatelly because premium ammo implemented as it is you can throw this game concept to trash bin.


Edited by Trostani, 22 January 2018 - 03:48 PM.


commer #12 Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:59 PM

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View PostTrostani, on 22 January 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

OMG, SHTs are designed to tank and soak damage, so they SHOULD survive longer, for a price of worse guns, lower pen, DPM and/or accuracy. Unfortunatelly because premium ammo implemented as it is you can throw this game concept to trash bin.

 

  Not really SHT's still survive longer but morons think armor should not increase survivability but make them invicible. This is the problem with a typical player who complains about SHTs being bad - he is annoyed by being penned and thinks that should never happen. SHT's still bounce more than any other class and have more HP than any other class. They just don't allow you to be stupid which is annoying for stupid people. 

 

Also this still doesn't change the fact that they overperform. That's a fact and your complaining won't change that.

 

PS. Funny thing is Armored tanks are the best tanks for you too and you complain about them. LOL. The Irony. 


Edited by commer, 22 January 2018 - 04:01 PM.


vasilinhorulezz #13 Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:05 PM

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View PostVilluu, on 22 January 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Vk100.01P, Mäuschen, Japanese sumos all those mighty big fortresses. Whats the point in them?

Those slow monster tanks that make you go push that 2 key nearly immediately when facing them. Should there be a limit for gold ammo in random battles is what goes through my head sometimes.

Yes yes gold ammo is part of the game and everyone can use it but how frustrating does it get when you get your own super heavy having the most retarded smile thinking that now you are going to make people scared. Scared of what? Scared for spending few extra credits to kill you pretty easily? Shouldnt super hevies make you run and hide like a little sissy girl?

The truth about super hevies are that they are just slow tanks with no armor when it comes to penetration with gold ammunition which is the only type of ammo you will see in the hitlog.

Tip is to avoid those tanks at all costs if you get frustrated easily when seeing lots of gold ammo spammed.

I kinda understand gold spamming in tier 10 only matches since quite many tier 10 tanks doesnt have the penetration for even a mediocre armor.

I myself load 5 gold ammo for every tank I play and I quite rarely use them even if I am at the bottom. Why? Because I like the challenge of knowledge for weakspots and hitting them. Thats not the case for many out there. Should it be?

 

The overflow of heavy tanks in random games actually prove you wrong.

Armor, HP plus alpha, isn't something that you beat easily.

How many games, especially in tier 10 half or more of the team are heavy tanks?

Guess what, it's a lot.


Edited by vasilinhorulezz, 22 January 2018 - 04:06 PM.


commer #14 Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:08 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 22 January 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:

 

The overflow of heavy tanks in random games actually prove you wrong.

Armor, HP plus alpha, isn't something that you beat easily.

How many games, especially in tier 10 half or more of the team are heavy tanks?

Guess what, it's a lot.

 

While we agree that super heavies are strong you have some faulty logic. Tank popularity speaks nothing about it being strong or weak. People get tanks because they THINK it is strong. Also that's not the only reason. People sometimes favor certain nations or tanks because of history or patriotism. If people bought tanks only because of their objective strength everyone would be driving the t95 in tier9 but no one does since everyone remembers how crapit was. Now it's easy mode.

TheWarrener #15 Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:15 PM

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Another bad player complaining that he doesn't get 75% win ratio by playing an idiotproof tank, nothing to see here, move along 

RamRaid90 #16 Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:02 PM

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View PostLord_Edge, on 22 January 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Sorry to have to point out the obvious here, but the tanks in question are mostly tier-X, of course a players WR in them will be noticeably higher than their average WR, as the average WR covers all tanks of all tiers and the learning curve the player went on during their WoT career.

 

I.E according to your sig you have a career WR of 54% and a recent WR of 61%, by your logic that's just because the tanks you have been playing recently have boosted it not because you are better now than than you have been on average (when in reality you will be better now than your career average).

 

It's completely the opposite.

 

Winrate curves for every player will show a higher win rate the lower down the tiers you look.

 

Average winrates are noticeably higher at lower tiers.



Velvet_Underground #17 Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:14 PM

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View PostVilluu, on 22 January 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yes yes gold ammo is part of the game and everyone can use it but how frustrating does it get when you get your own super heavy having the most retarded smile thinking that now you are going to make people scared. Scared of what? Scared for spending few extra credits to kill you pretty easily? Shouldnt super hevies make you run and hide like a little sissy girl?

Why should such tanks deserve this respect or even fear? The heavy tank players did nothing to earn that privilege over the other players (contrary to, say, the respect a reward vehicle and its player might recieve for doing something special), he's just driving another tank class. Now if you think HTs should be feared just because they are HTs than you are advocating them being OP, it's really that simple. Do you crap your pants in fear of getting outspotted or flanked by lights or meds? If you don't then those classes shouldn't be scared of your super heavy if you were actually interested in a fair and balanced game.



Jigabachi #18 Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:18 PM

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View PostLord_Edge, on 22 January 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

[...], a few days ago I saw a T5H player drive casually round a corner into a pair of WZ HTs which I had already spotted, [...], IIRC he got two shots off before meeting his end and only one connected for 3-400 damage.  A few days before that I saw another T5H go down in flames trying to dual an E100.  

That kind of anecdotal evidence won't get us anywhere. Seeing an OP vehicle getting obliterated in seconds doesn't make it less OP. 

I recently saw an Obj.140 almost hitting 10k damage in a match. Doesn't mean anything.



leggasiini #19 Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:27 PM

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People spam gold at them, because:

 

1) you cannot do damage them from front at all

2) shitty map design makes flanking hard on many maps

3) they often are pretty damn broken as well (especially the Type 5 Heavy), so people want to get rid of them as fast as possible

 

Your brain is severely damaged if you think that super-heavies are useless. Just to say, I block like 3.1k - 3.2k damage per battle on average with the Type 5 Heavy, even when I get gold spammed like every battle. Is that useless armor for you?



DracheimFlug #20 Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:40 PM

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View Postcommer, on 22 January 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

 

You miss the point. If a players strategy is cluelessly driving forward he will still live longer and shoot more in a SHT than any other tank. 

 

View PostZlatanArKung, on 22 January 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Both are true.

A VK100P increase your WR by like 3-4% for example.

 

The Type 5 heavy also improves WR by like 3%.

 

Both compared to how well they do on average. Meaning, a 51% WR players gets on average 54%-55% WR in a VK100P.

 

The first Type 5 heavy player where terribly bad, and rightfully got punished. He should learn how to play.

the 2nd one have to little info.

 

And yet in my case, my win rate with my 100 P is, so far, well below my average win rate and is frankly bringing me down. This could be because I do not yet have the top gun, but nevertheless..... In my case, allies tend either to rush past me and die,or refuse to advance with me, in which case I just die alone subsequently. Again, it could be that without the top gun, it is not a sufficient offensive threat to matter but nevertheless, so far, only a negative effect on my win rate. I doubt I am the only such case.




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