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Somnorila #1 Posted 27 January 2018 - 09:00 PM

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So any clue if they are going to make this class matter again? Or maybe i'm playing it wrong so then some point to point tutorials that are more than just theory and can actually be put in practice reliable...

I see it as the class that can and should scale the tides of a battles because you have the vision over the battle and can jump from one side to another in an instant to help. But without being able to reliable send shells where you're aiming, enough damage to thin the heard in a shot or faster reload be flexible and pick low health or supress seems kind of pointless. Support doesn't mean weak...



BillCarson1997 #2 Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:39 PM

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curse you all

upsetti_spaghetti #3 Posted 28 January 2018 - 12:38 PM

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Lol, I am playing the M41HMC and unless your team goes full idiot, you have plenty of time to change the tide of the battle, in higher tiers it's even easier since you have a bigger alpha/splash and nice slow moving targets and all I have to do is move a bit after I shoot without ever leaving base.

 

Fixes I would propose is that there should never be more then 2 arties per team and in the tier X matches, that should go to 1. It's just too powerful with such little risk and too easy to cordinate with other arties and just dump shells on one tank.



B3RG #4 Posted 28 January 2018 - 03:57 PM

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I'm for maximizing the number of arty to 2 per team

​But...... Then the missions have to be adapted and we all know how good wargaming is at modifying the game

​2 months of broken friend list & chat at least



Gremlin182 #5 Posted 28 January 2018 - 04:11 PM

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SPGs are fine as they are not perfect by any means or enjoyable to play, and of course they cannot defend themselves or carry a game all they can do is support.

If the team fails you fail every time.

 

More accuracy faster reloading more damage would make them way too powerful.

What they could try is putting the view range back to a reasonable level and give them a direct fire mode much like a TD.

They can continue to lob shells indirectly as now stunning and damaging multiple targets but also have a workable direct fire mode.



Somnorila #6 Posted 28 January 2018 - 04:21 PM

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View Postupsetti_spaghetti, on 28 January 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

Lol, I am playing the M41HMC and unless your team goes full idiot, you have plenty of time to change the tide of the battle, in higher tiers it's even easier since you have a bigger alpha/splash and nice slow moving targets and all I have to do is move a bit after I shoot without ever leaving base.

 

Fixes I would propose is that there should never be more then 2 arties per team and in the tier X matches, that should go to 1. It's just too powerful with such little risk and too easy to cordinate with other arties and just dump shells on one tank.

 

That's the thing. If you have a good enough team to not totally steamroll the enemy team, you will deal decent damage in total. But if your team is weak and they would totally need some guidance and support, well you can't scare the enemies, thin them down or at least soften them so that your dazzled friends be able to take them down. Not quickly enough anyway. Basically you don't matter, as your contribution is 90% based on RNG and team mates, specially on these maps where you find yourself pretty often that the fight is in a place you can't cover. So you're pretty much just along for the ride and can't use that map knowledge for anything useful rather than just getting annoyed that you're just a spectator in yet another silly loss.

I would say max 3 arties but never less than two. Coordinated fire is something that should occur. I would also apply same rules to LT's and MT's and would rather have tanks mirrored in both teams, according to tank roles and capability. I mean pairing armored tanks vs lightly armored tanks but mind you with better dpm or whatever, somewhat having similar battle rating, is wrong as the freaking tanks play on the same match on the same map and can't neutralize each other.


Edited by Somnorila, 28 January 2018 - 04:22 PM.


Somnorila #7 Posted 28 January 2018 - 07:49 PM

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View PostGremlin182, on 28 January 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

SPGs are fine as they are not perfect by any means or enjoyable to play, and of course they cannot defend themselves or carry a game all they can do is support.

If the team fails you fail every time.

 

More accuracy faster reloading more damage would make them way too powerful.

What they could try is putting the view range back to a reasonable level and give them a direct fire mode much like a TD.

They can continue to lob shells indirectly as now stunning and damaging multiple targets but also have a workable direct fire mode.

 

Doesn't matter. As arties are as expensive to buy and research as any other tank. And arties have nothing going for them but their big gun, thus their ability for destruction should be higher of any other class in the game. Getting that feeling of being way to powerful, well that's how they should be. Because when they have targets and hit them too, well those targets should melt in an instant or very fast. That's how long range support works, that if you don't want healing and other fantasy stuff. Meaning reliable consistent damage towards your enemies so that you don't get overrun and die.

Edited by Somnorila, 28 January 2018 - 07:53 PM.


Gremlin182 #8 Posted 29 January 2018 - 07:28 AM

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View PostSomnorila, on 28 January 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

 

Doesn't matter. As arties are as expensive to buy and research as any other tank. And arties have nothing going for them but their big gun, thus their ability for destruction should be higher of any other class in the game. Getting that feeling of being way to powerful, well that's how they should be. Because when they have targets and hit them too, well those targets should melt in an instant or very fast. That's how long range support works, that if you don't want healing and other fantasy stuff. Meaning reliable consistent damage towards your enemies so that you don't get overrun and die.

 

Yes but in reality SPGs are barrage weapons you do not have a single vehicle taking on another single vehicle indirectly that is more fantasy than healing.

Its true SPGs Field Guns even howitzers did take on enemy tanks but they did it en mass not one on one.

They also sometimes did it using direct fire as they were being overrun.

 

The problem with SPGs in the game was the ability to "once their target was spotted" to reliably put a shell directly on or close enough to do a lot of damage to a single tank, even if that tank was moving.

They could do that because of some more fantasy the radio calls test firing more radio calls followed by 5 10 or 15 SPGs all firing a dozen shells each into an area, is replaced by the tanks actually appearing live in your sights and if they are stationary you would have probably hit them.

I have no problem with that its the only way Single vehicle arty could work in the game.

If you want traditional style arty then give players a battery of SPGs, no top down view or even aiming you just fire 5 shells into the map area an enemy tank appear in.

 

Now SPGs have less pen less damage but more area of effect so they can more reliably damage/stun enemies, being able to really break up formations is great I cannot say I enjoy playing SPGs I do it for a change sometimes and maybe get a few personal missions out of the way.

I recon they have the type almost balanced and I say that because both sides are unhappy, if the prospective targets are whining about being stunned all the time and the SPG players are complaining they are not doing enough damage then they probably got it right.


Edited by Gremlin182, 29 January 2018 - 07:29 AM.


siramra #9 Posted 29 January 2018 - 08:43 AM

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So the buff to reload,aim and acc wasn`t enough?

If it was up to me to balance the arties I`d revert them to the 9.17 patch.

Limit them to 2 pr side. Anything more than that turns into a campfest.

Half the damage HE does. Keep the AP as is. Force them to choose.

Quetime of arties goes up. Less players play them, and less annoying for the rest of us.

Cancer free games, problem solved.



Somnorila #10 Posted 29 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

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View PostGremlin182, on 29 January 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

 

Yes but in reality SPGs are barrage weapons you do not have a single vehicle taking on another single vehicle indirectly that is more fantasy than healing.

Its true SPGs Field Guns even howitzers did take on enemy tanks but they did it en mass not one on one.

They also sometimes did it using direct fire as they were being overrun.

 

The problem with SPGs in the game was the ability to "once their target was spotted" to reliably put a shell directly on or close enough to do a lot of damage to a single tank, even if that tank was moving.

They could do that because of some more fantasy the radio calls test firing more radio calls followed by 5 10 or 15 SPGs all firing a dozen shells each into an area, is replaced by the tanks actually appearing live in your sights and if they are stationary you would have probably hit them.

I have no problem with that its the only way Single vehicle arty could work in the game.

If you want traditional style arty then give players a battery of SPGs, no top down view or even aiming you just fire 5 shells into the map area an enemy tank appear in.

 

Now SPGs have less pen less damage but more area of effect so they can more reliably damage/stun enemies, being able to really break up formations is great I cannot say I enjoy playing SPGs I do it for a change sometimes and maybe get a few personal missions out of the way.

I recon they have the type almost balanced and I say that because both sides are unhappy, if the prospective targets are whining about being stunned all the time and the SPG players are complaining they are not doing enough damage then they probably got it right.

 

That's why i'm annoyed at WG, that they don't seem to experiment with different possibilities. As you could have cluster shells, with fixed timing and with several shells to choose from with different fuse to control damage strength vs damage coverage, to behave somewhat like the artillery barrage consumable from SH. Or to increase reload and decrease accuracy so you can lob inaccurate shells very fast in an area. Or to increase splash range but to set damage in a specific range, to be dealt in that splash equally to any vehicle regardless of hitting the target or not. Or to make arties extremely powerful but gimp their vision so that they can see only targets that are manually "painted" by allies.

I don't know, many possibilities to try. But before that, all classes should be defined in relation with their role in the team. So WoT needs much more than only arty "fix" to resemble a game with sound logic behind it. But they keep adding new branches and premium tanks while the maps and all around balance is still lacking and treated by ear.

View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

So the buff to reload,aim and acc wasn`t enough?

If it was up to me to balance the arties I`d revert them to the 9.17 patch.

Limit them to 2 pr side. Anything more than that turns into a campfest.

Half the damage HE does. Keep the AP as is. Force them to choose.

Quetime of arties goes up. Less players play them, and less annoying for the rest of us.

Cancer free games, problem solved.

 

Maybe maybe not, it's up to them to bring these kind of tests on the public test server for all of us to try them and give some feedback. As their "supertest" seems to fail almost every time.

And the so called buffs you talk were way too little of a trade for the power they lost. I feel that if they keep everything as they are, reload must be buffed some more as dealing 200-300 in like 40 seconds is laughable. Sure some shots are lucky and i even saw a T92 giving a oneshot to my platoon mate yesterday in his Amx-13-90, but those occurrences are so rare that it doesn't matter. In average a good somewhat rare roll will deal about 500-700 damage but most of the time you'll get 200-300 in "normal" armored tanks. Super heavy tanks, forget it, if you deal 200 and something you're lucky. Again, at about 40 seconds that's just mockery. Maybe if the stun would last more than 15 seconds on a hit or 2 seconds on a splash on a HT would have some sense. Give me 15 seconds on a splash and 30 seconds on a hit regardless of the class of the tank i aim for and i could say it's workable. Until then give me better damage per shot, better He penetration or dpm pls, as without any one of these three the class is seriously lacking right now.


Edited by Somnorila, 29 January 2018 - 06:21 PM.


HeidenSieker #11 Posted 29 January 2018 - 04:22 PM

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View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

So the buff to reload,aim and acc wasn`t enough?

 

You need to mention the nerfs, too. Refer to the 9.18 patch notes.

Darth_Clicker #12 Posted 29 January 2018 - 05:05 PM

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View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

So the buff to reload,aim and acc wasn`t enough?

If it was up to me to balance the arties I`d revert them to the 9.17 patch.

Limit them to 2 pr side. Anything more than that turns into a campfest.

Half the damage HE does. Keep the AP as is. Force them to choose.

Quetime of arties goes up. Less players play them, and less annoying for the rest of us.

Cancer free games, problem solved.

 

The game is already cancer free.  I know...my father from cancer and I have not seen anything remotely similar in this game.

Edited by Darth_Clicker, 29 January 2018 - 05:06 PM.


siramra #13 Posted 29 January 2018 - 07:19 PM

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View PostHeidenSieker, on 29 January 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

 

You need to mention the nerfs, too. Refer to the 9.18 patch notes.

 

​Arties are annoying as it is. No need to buff them. That was kinda the point.

View PostDarth_Clicker, on 29 January 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

 

The game is already cancer free.  I know...my father from cancer and I have not seen anything remotely similar in this game.

 

Aaaah....Artyplayer who got butthurt.

HeidenSieker #14 Posted 29 January 2018 - 07:51 PM

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View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

(H&S: You need to mention the nerfs, too. Refer to the 9.18 patch notes)

 

​Arties are annoying as it is. No need to buff them. That was kinda the point.

 

Here you are then:

 

https://worldoftanks...8-spg-revision/



Somnorila #15 Posted 29 January 2018 - 07:58 PM

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View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

 

​Arties are annoying as it is. No need to buff them. That was kinda the point.

 

Arty should be a serious threat not just annoying. Sure, maybe the maps need better designing, more in to tune with a specific game flow and that regards spawns too, not just cover, paths, concealment, sniping and spotting capability and so on. 

I for one have played with every tank class in the game and can say that even when i died by arty i rarely thought that the issue was the arty who killed me, but rather my own actions or my team inability to foresee the enemy movement and place themselves accordingly in time and don't die too fast without dealing at least half of their hitpoints in damage. If you think that, hell even if you get oneshotted by arty, the issue is not the enemy arty. As many more tanks can kill you in one shot, be it may of luck or of their very powerful guns, while arty, currently, can do that very very rarely. Even before the nerf arties killed in one shot way less than other tanks. But people like to remember only the bad times because they have no clue how many other times their enemy arty was trolled by RNG.

View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

 

Aaaah....Artyplayer who got butthurt.

Also...you're a jackass. And deserve to be annoyed as you are too smug to see that not everything is only about you.



siramra #16 Posted 29 January 2018 - 08:00 PM

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View PostHeidenSieker, on 29 January 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:

 

Here you are then:

 

https://worldoftanks...8-spg-revision/

 

​Still no need to buff them. The more frustrating they are made to play, the less players will play them.

siramra #17 Posted 29 January 2018 - 08:06 PM

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View PostSomnorila, on 29 January 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

Arty should be a serious threat not just annoying. Sure, maybe the maps need better designing, more in to tune with a specific game flow and that regards spawns too, not just cover, paths, concealment, sniping and spotting capability and so on. 

I for one have played with every tank class in the game and can say that even when i died by arty i rarely thought that the issue was the arty who killed me, but rather my own actions or my team inability to foresee the enemy movement and place themselves accordingly in time and don't die too fast without dealing at least half of their hitpoints in damage. If you think that, hell even if you get oneshotted by arty, the issue is not the enemy arty. As many more tanks can kill you in one shot, be it may of luck or of their very powerful guns, while arty, currently, can do that very very rarely. Even before the nerf arties killed in one shot way less than other tanks. But people like to remember only the bad times because they have no clue how many other times their enemy arty was trolled by RNG.

Also...you're a jackass. And deserve to be annoyed as you are too smug to see that not everything is only about you.

 

No. Arties should be as the class it is: Support.

They removed the ability to oneshot, and that was a step in the right direction.

The Whole problem With arties is that there aren`t any real Counter to them exept to hide. And any game With more than 2pr side turned into a campfest.

But implement a Counter to arties like they did in AW. Arties on the other team gets a ping on the map when u fire. If u don`t move the ping gets more accurate. After 3rd shot and no moving, they can see u.

Then we have a Counter to arties. And then we might talk about balancing arties better, Giving them options in types of ammo and stuff.

But arties need a Natural counterbalance.

 

Ps: I get annoyed everytime there is arties out there. Got to love xvm focus. And it has nothing to do With being a jackass. WG have effed up every time they`ve tried to Balance arties....cause they don`t effing listen to feedback......like the stun.


Edited by siramra, 29 January 2018 - 08:14 PM.


Somnorila #18 Posted 29 January 2018 - 08:59 PM

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View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:

 

No. Arties should be as the class it is: Support.

They removed the ability to oneshot, and that was a step in the right direction.

The Whole problem With arties is that there aren`t any real Counter to them exept to hide. And any game With more than 2pr side turned into a campfest.

But implement a Counter to arties like they did in AW. Arties on the other team gets a ping on the map when u fire. If u don`t move the ping gets more accurate. After 3rd shot and no moving, they can see u.

Then we have a Counter to arties. And then we might talk about balancing arties better, Giving them options in types of ammo and stuff.

But arties need a Natural counterbalance.

 

Ps: I get annoyed everytime there is arties out there. Got to love xvm focus. And it has nothing to do With being a jackass. WG have effed up every time they`ve tried to Balance arties....cause they don`t effing listen to feedback......like the stun.

 

Yes, support. To support you, my ally and team mate, when you spot and fight enemies i soften them up for you or rid you of from being overrun. So i should be able to do that not to just threaten them by tickling them.

Sure, i did made other threads where i did say something along those lines. I would prefer that when arties fire, at least the map square from where they shoot be highlighted. If not for all at least for every arty player so that you can more easily identify position to counter fire. Also some notices for everyone else would also help, so that you and your allies know when enemy arty has fired. Also the last part of the shell path should be more evident so that everyone in the fire area have a clue at what angle the shells are coming so they can properly seek cover and give pointers to his arty where to look for counter. I mean' there are possibilities, quite many. WG just has to try them and let us test them and together chose the best fit.

You, on the ground can only hide, that's something normal i think as you shouldn't be un-bothered when you farm my team mates. Arty is actually counter for bullies and savvy players and that should represent something good as it may help in balancing teams much better.

For their natural counter balance i believe that LT's should be the ones but they need better maps and tweaked mechanics to be able to sneak in to spawn/base zones. I mean, for starters, that 50m proxy spot is something that should go.

Sadly WG has its eye dollar signs and forgot that they still have to develop a GAME.


Edited by Somnorila, 29 January 2018 - 09:00 PM.


siramra #19 Posted 29 January 2018 - 09:15 PM

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View PostSomnorila, on 29 January 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

 

Yes, support. To support you, my ally and team mate, when you spot and fight enemies i soften them up for you or rid you of from being overrun. So i should be able to do that not to just threaten them by tickling them.

Sure, i did made other threads where i did say something along those lines. I would prefer that when arties fire, at least the map square from where they shoot be highlighted. If not for all at least for every arty player so that you can more easily identify position to counter fire. Also some notices for everyone else would also help, so that you and your allies know when enemy arty has fired. Also the last part of the shell path should be more evident so that everyone in the fire area have a clue at what angle the shells are coming so they can properly seek cover and give pointers to his arty where to look for counter. I mean' there are possibilities, quite many. WG just has to try them and let us test them and together chose the best fit.

You, on the ground can only hide, that's something normal i think as you shouldn't be un-bothered when you farm my team mates. Arty is actually counter for bullies and savvy players and that should represent something good as it may help in balancing teams much better.

For their natural counter balance i believe that LT's should be the ones but they need better maps and tweaked mechanics to be able to sneak in to spawn/base zones. I mean, for starters, that 50m proxy spot is something that should go.

Sadly WG has its eye dollar signs and forgot that they still have to develop a GAME.

 

​I`d go so far and make a dare to WG. Let the playerbase decide. The Whole duration of a patch were players have the ability to turn off games With arties.

Let them collect the data. Have the data showed in their faces and then sit Down and listen to the community.

I have a whishlist regarding arties. Wrote them earlier in the thread of Yours. Give players options. Make the line more skilledbased than what it is now.

But it`s not going to happend. There have been arty threads since they implemented them. They failed at every step. It took them years to fix the oneshot arties.

 



Somnorila #20 Posted 29 January 2018 - 09:42 PM

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View Postsiramra, on 29 January 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

 

​I`d go so far and make a dare to WG. Let the playerbase decide. The Whole duration of a patch were players have the ability to turn off games With arties.

Let them collect the data. Have the data showed in their faces and then sit Down and listen to the community.

I have a whishlist regarding arties. Wrote them earlier in the thread of Yours. Give players options. Make the line more skilledbased than what it is now.

But it`s not going to happend. There have been arty threads since they implemented them. They failed at every step. It took them years to fix the oneshot arties.

 

 

Threads are more of a brain storm, sort of. As very few really use the forum. But yeah, in game options should do the trick, even if even at that many are still out with the cows.

I for one didn't had a problem with oneshots. As i knew that actually getting them was random really, i even wanted more reliable oneshots, or reliable damage so you can asses a situation more truly than "no problem i got this game won....shoots way off...oh crap game lost". Granted that those kind of situations were not that common either, players on the field decided the outcome, and still are. I had and still have issues with modules damage, arty and every other tank too. I would had changed that so you can destroy only one module per shell, the first module you've hit. Part to get rid of those track - ammo rack and part to make the module damage part of the game, part of what the player controls and not totally random. This would affect arty the most i'd say as a splash tends to destroy several modules and crew members. So if i die in one hit it's ok, my fault or RNG, it happens, but if i'm left with 10% Hp and 4 modules/crew out. Or even worse with my HP barely taken out and 3-4 modules/crew destroyed, then i'm going bananas. And what's the point of small/large kits? Why not make only one type and be done with it. As those, more so in the situation i mentioned makes a freaking big difference and unbalances teams even more according to player silver/gold balance. What kind of crack balancing team are they running there? Vodka monday and orgy thursday..wtf?!


Edited by Somnorila, 29 January 2018 - 09:43 PM.





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