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make Yugoslavian or Serbian tech tree

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890 #61 Posted 13 January 2019 - 08:47 PM

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View PostNinjasaky, on 13 January 2019 - 08:47 PM, said:

 

It only looks almost the same as the T-72.

The engineers from the Military Technical Institute in Belgrade stuck to that look since the domestic Yugoslavian production of that look and shape is much more practical than inventing a new shape,

since this shape is already best for the terrain of the Balkans.

Thus to avoid any copyright infringement based on similar looks, they had to buy the license.

Licence was buyed because Yugoslavia did not make any tank in those numbers and they did not have expirience and technologies to make tank.

Same goes with the armaments, i.e. the 125mm Main Gun, AA 12,7mm Machinegun on the turret and the coaxial mounted 7,62mm light machine gun.

Main gun and machinguns are pure copies.

Every single weapon and part for that tank was locally designed and made.

This is just not true. Weapon Control system (SUV) was designed. Others are copies.

Every main part of the tank was reinvented, i.e re-designed.

Simply not true. Gun reinvented? Engine reinvented with same name?

And everything listed is totally different then any Soviet weaponry or hardware.

Have you ever seen M-84 and T-72?

Why change the look and shape of a perfectly fine tank and weapons when you can re-design its complete internals.

Thus making this tank and all the weapons totally different from anything of Soviet origin, although the similarities in look.

Another wrong fact.

It's different like apples and pears. The apple is bigger but lighter and more firm and the pear is smaller but heavier and softer, but they share similarities. You can find examples like that in the automotive industry with lots of similarities but nothing in common.

A neighbor of mine was a Yugoslavian Army officer and worked for the final assembly plant for the M-84 as the main final testing manager testing every one produced by himself for the time of his career with them.

He tested 600 tanks alone? You belive in that?

My fathers Co-Worker was a M-84 tank commander. So I even know some more things about this tank then I'm supposed to know.

I was in JNA by myself. I entered M-84 by myself.

And the engine is not only a diesel engine but a multi fuel diesel engine that can run not only on diesel as obvious but also industrial diesel, petrol and kerosine.

You copied link below. Read what you copied. Yes it can use different fuel. At what cost?

 

There were about 240 Yugoslav factories which directly participated in the production of the M-84 and about 1,000 others which participated indirectly.

 

Edit missing Wikipedia Information: 5x smoke grenade launchers on the right and 7x smoke grenade launchers on the left.

 

This tank has SUV (weapon control system) made in Yugoslavia along with gun barrel stabilization so it fire accurate while on the move. Besides that and few not so relevant system tank is copy made by Soviet licence. More original Yugoslavia tanks were Vozilo A and B, Galeb, Condor and that Frankenstain made with T-55 hull and Helcat turret. You can try to persuede me more, but only person persueded here that this was Yugoslavia made tank is you.

Ninjasaky #62 Posted 13 January 2019 - 08:50 PM

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View Post890, on 13 January 2019 - 08:47 PM, said:

You can try to persuede me more

 

I don't care about persuading anyone. Whatever I say I back up with source links and facts.

captainpigg #63 Posted 13 January 2019 - 08:56 PM

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^^^^ It still doesn't matter, the T-72 would be a tier 13, at least, an improved locally made version would be higher still.

Until WG starts to use higher tier vehicles it has NO place in this game. 

 

ps I'm not from Europe so I have nothing against Yugoslavia at all, it just is a fact that you don't have enough unique tanks, or a large enough player base (ie Poland) for WG to look the other way, to justify their inclusion. Sorry.


Edited by captainpigg, 13 January 2019 - 09:00 PM.


890 #64 Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:47 PM

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View PostNinjasaky, on 13 January 2019 - 09:50 PM, said:

 

I don't care about persuading anyone. Whatever I say I back up with source links and facts.

 

Licence buyed. Tank copied witn minor changes. Same gun. Same machine guns. Almost same engine with even same name. Facts.

Fathers friend, neighbour ex military, link about Yugoslavia space program...are those facts?

Link from Wiki? Read what is writen about  T-72 Operators and variants:

Yugoslavia

  • M-84 – Indigenous design based on the T-72M but with several upgrades.
  • M-84A – Improved version based on the T-72M1, with new SUV-M-84 computerized fire-control system, including the DNNS-2 gunner's day/night sight, with independent stabilization in two planes and integral Laser rangefinder. Other upgrades include a stronger 1,000 hp engine.

 

 



Ninjasaky #65 Posted 13 January 2019 - 10:04 PM

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View Post890, on 13 January 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

View PostNinjasaky, on 13 January 2019 - 09:50 PM, said:

 

I don't care about persuading anyone. Whatever I say I back up with source links and facts.

 

Licence buyed. Tank copied witn minor changes. Same gun. Same machine guns. Almost same engine with even same name. Facts.

Fathers friend, neighbour ex military, link about Yugoslavia space program...are those facts?

Link from Wiki? Read what is writen about  T-72 Operators and variants:

Yugoslavia

  • M-84 – Indigenous design based on the T-72M but with several upgrades.
  • M-84A – Improved version based on the T-72M1, with new SUV-M-84 computerized fire-control system, including the DNNS-2 gunner's day/night sight, with independent stabilization in two planes and integral Laser rangefinder. Other upgrades include a stronger 1,000 hp engine.

 

 

 

Already backed up in previous posts, before your quotation.


Edited by Ninjasaky, 13 January 2019 - 10:09 PM.


890 #66 Posted 13 January 2019 - 10:09 PM

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*edited*

Edited by G_Bg_82, 15 January 2019 - 11:48 AM.
edited due to off topic


Ninjasaky #67 Posted 13 January 2019 - 10:13 PM

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View Post890, on 13 January 2019 - 10:09 PM, said:

*edited*

 

I have no threads regarding these topics. All my posts are constructive and informative with sources regarding the topics, its content and the history tied to the topics.

You have your right of opinion.

I surely ain't digging in or up anyone.

Feel free to leave without judging.


Edited by G_Bg_82, 15 January 2019 - 11:50 AM.


Jigabachi #68 Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:38 AM

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View PostNinjasaky, on 13 January 2019 - 10:13 PM, said:

All my posts are constructive and informative with sources regarding the topics, its content and the history tied to the topics.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that isn't true. All the raging aside, most of your posts were just full of random stuff about tanks with copied texts and all that left and right. And you just repeated the same things about that one single tank that definitely won't make it into the game. That didn't yield any progress. To this point we still don't have a list of possible tanks for the game.


Edited by Jigabachi, 14 January 2019 - 12:40 AM.


Ninjasaky #69 Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:39 AM

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View PostElefantas, on 12 January 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

Serbia never "manufactured" tanks

manufactured only 3 armored vehicles and 1 spg

 

My kind reminder that this is a Yugoslavian tech tree topic and not a Serbian tech tree topic and my reply to comments like "Serbia never developed, produced, manufactured. bla bla..."

Serbian tank  M-20UP-1

Serbia Develops State-of-the-Art, Armata-Style Battle Tank

© mycity-military.com

Europe 17:25 10.07.2015

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201507101024464826/

 

Even better than the Armata. Has electro engines for every track wheel and a barrel cooling system to avoid heat signatures.

 

Next reply be like "Just a copy... It uses the same copy of the barrel as the T90, which also is the copy from M-84, which in turn is the copy from T-72", and so on...

 

Enjoy the article.

23:47 Added after 7 minutes

View PostJigabachi, on 14 January 2019 - 12:38 AM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that isn't true. All the raging aside, most of your posts were just full of random stuff about tanks with copied texts and all that left and right. And you just repeated the same things about that one single tank that definitely won't make it into the game. That didn't yield any progress. To this point we still don't have a list of possible tanks for the game.

 

The list is on page number two, post #25, section 2, point 1. It's still true and has been true, as all my posts are constructive and informative with sources regarding the topics and in the replies I made with the correct information provided and its content and the history tied to the topics.

No raging in sight.

Enjoy.


Edited by Ninjasaky, 14 January 2019 - 08:16 AM.


Jigabachi #70 Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:56 AM

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View PostNinjasaky, on 14 January 2019 - 12:39 AM, said:

The list is on page number two, post #25, section 2, point 1. 

There is a list with tank copies. I was still asking for a list of the few unique tanks that might make it into a combined tree.



Ninjasaky #71 Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:30 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 14 January 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:

There is a list with tank copies. I was still asking for a list of the few unique tanks that might make it into a combined tree.

 

You mistook page number two, post #25, section 2, point 1 with page number 2, post #29, point 6. line number 2.

Did you notice that more than 60% of all the nations tanks apart from Germany, USA and the USSR are a what you so call a "copy".

 

It's not called "copy" in the reality of tank development. It's called combining and improving with adding newly developed and designed parts which all together when redesigned is a new tank.

And in this case making the tanks unique on its own.

Same goes for page number two, post #25, section 2, point 1.


Edited by Ninjasaky, 14 January 2019 - 11:27 AM.


seXikanac #72 Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:59 PM

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View PostKrasnoarmeyets, on 13 January 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

There were some rumors in the past that Yugo tanks will be implemented in the game.But rather in combined eastern europian tech tree,than independent tech tree, which is understandable since the tech tree will be made of USA,Czech and USSR clones.
 

 

Im fine with even that, but that will not happen

Ninjasaky #73 Posted 14 January 2019 - 02:25 PM

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View PostKrasnoarmeyets, on 13 January 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

There were some rumors in the past that Yugo tanks will be implemented in the game.But rather in combined eastern europian tech tree,than independent tech tree, which is understandable since the tech tree will be made of USA,Czech and USSR clones.
 

 

1. Yugo tanks are not clones. You better not question that if disinformed. I posted some easy and understandable facts that prove that.

2. Yugo tanks are unique tank branches on its own, thus it will not happen that Yugo tanks will be part of a combined tech tree. They are a complete tech tree nation in itself.

 

Refer to page 4, post #72 for more information and to the posts posted within #72.


Edited by Ninjasaky, 14 January 2019 - 02:27 PM.


Jigabachi #74 Posted 14 January 2019 - 03:42 PM

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View PostNinjasaky, on 14 January 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

You mistook page number two, post #25, section 2, point 1 with page number 2, post #29, point 6. line number 2.

Now that I'm on a computer and not my smartphone, I checked it again. It's this post:

Spoiler

That is your list and even a few full trees.

Again, that's not a list of possible unique tanks that could make it into a techtree, that's a list of mostly clones and copies. Sooo. Yeah. We're still not getting any progress here.


Edited by Jigabachi, 14 January 2019 - 03:44 PM.


kaadomin #75 Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:19 PM

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Guys ... I would like to have the next T-34-85, a Sherman and a new map, but

 

- you are off topic in this game with modern tanks

- you are off topic in the Wargaming Developer Partner Program sub forum

 



Ninjasaky #76 Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:27 PM

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View PostJigabachi, on 14 January 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

Now that I'm on a computer and not my smartphone, I checked it again. It's this post:

Spoiler

That is your list and even a few full trees.

Again, that's not a list of possible unique tanks that could make it into a techtree, that's a list of mostly clones and copies. Sooo. Yeah. We're still not getting any progress here.

 

It's not called "copy" in the reality of tank development. It's called combining and improving with adding newly developed and designed parts which all together when redesigned is a new tank.

And in this case making the tanks unique on its own. Calling tanks copies is highly uneducated if no tank development history knowledge is present.

If it were simple copies which they are not, then these in the spoiler down below would also be called copies, but aren't since every vehicle is unique on its own.

And every Yugoslav tank is different from other European mixed tanks like these down below which have their place in their nations tech tree.

Same goes for Yugoslav tanks, unique on their own and have their place in their own tech trees.

They only didn't get implemented into the game yet due to Wargaming first implementing the more "importanter ones"

And do note that the Yugoslav tech tree has no blueprint tanks like 50% of all the other nations in the game.

They were real vehicles in real use in Yugoslavia during the mid era.

And on a side note, no that is not my list. That is just one proposal list based on real history and true facts that I shared.

Furtherly the Yugoslav tech tree doesn't have a heavy tank tech tree line yet. Which should be added too.

Spoiler

 

I appreciate your interest and support, keep doing so. The majority of the huge Yugoslav and balkanic player base appreciate it and many in the wargaming community who seek more variety and diversity in gameplay.

15:33 Added after 6 minutes

View Postkaadomin, on 14 January 2019 - 04:19 PM, said:

Guys ... I would like to have the next T-34-85, a Sherman and a new map, but

 

- you are off topic in this game with modern tanks

- you are off topic in the Wargaming Developer Partner Program sub forum

 

 

Nobody talking about modern tanks when it comes to the Yugoslav tech tree right now, other than replies to other posts.

There are 2 other threads about the implementation of the first standard version of the M-84.

M-84 is not modern for today's standards but enough modern for World of tanks in the near future, seeing as World of Tanks is slowly evolving and adding never tanks to the game than what was first in the game since launch.

The only question is which way Wargaming decides to choose. To expand the borderline of tank model development years by for example 10 years or still stick to the old concept. Either way it's good as Yugoslav tanks are already in the mid era of tanks and in the other case it means that the M-84 will get added to the existing Yugoslav tech tree that will get implemented eventually, which will then add a heavy tank tech tree line to the existing Yugoslav tech tree proposal.

 

I'ts not me who made the threads. It is the admins job to move the threads to the appropriate forum part.


Edited by Ninjasaky, 14 January 2019 - 04:36 PM.


890 #77 Posted 14 January 2019 - 05:52 PM

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View PostNinjasaky, on 14 January 2019 - 01:39 AM, said:

 

My kind reminder that this is a Yugoslavian tech tree topic and not a Serbian tech tree topic and my reply to comments like "Serbia never developed, produced, manufactured. bla bla..."

 

Serbia Develops State-of-the-Art, Armata-Style Battle Tank

© mycity-military.com

Europe 17:25 10.07.2015

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201507101024464826/

 

Even better than the Armata. Has electro engines for every track wheel and a barrel cooling system to avoid heat signatures.

 

 

Tank from this photoshoped picture is curently out of any plans in Serbia. Project even doesnt exist. Somebodies wet dreams are no longer in plans.

Still you did not post a single Yugoslav original tank.



Jigabachi #78 Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:38 PM

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View PostNinjasaky, on 14 January 2019 - 04:27 PM, said:

It's not called "copy" in the reality of tank development.

But this isn't takd developement, this is a game. And in this game, it's called a copy.

You mentioned variety at the end. Copies aren't variety. Copies are boring and don't add anything to the game.

It's time for you to put your blind patriotism aside and face the reality: Most of the tanks you see in this thread are copies, meaning that you won't get a full tree. So grab the tanks that are truly unique and put your effort into the introduction of those.



1V3421T #79 Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:20 PM

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Wargaming should do a Techtree with different countrys.

There are many countrys who made 1 or 2 Tanks. The can make an Techtree with this tanks.

Jugo Tanks ( i know atleast from an SPG) or the M84

Austrian Tanks "Kurrasier"

Australian "Vickers"

Argentinien hat welche gebaut

 

 

 

 


Edited by Con_Clavi_Con_Dio, 14 January 2019 - 10:31 PM.


Ninjasaky #80 Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:14 PM

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View Post890, on 14 January 2019 - 05:52 PM, said:

View PostNinjasaky, on 14 January 2019 - 01:39 AM, said:

Serbia Develops State-of-the-Art, Armata-Style Battle Tank

© mycity-military.com

Europe 17:25 10.07.2015

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201507101024464826/

 

Even better than the Armata. Has electro engines for every track wheel and a barrel cooling system to avoid heat signatures.

 

Tank from this photoshoped picture is curently out of any plans in Serbia. Project even doesnt exist. Somebodies wet dreams are no longer in plans.

Still you did not post a single Yugoslav original tank.

 

The М-20UP-1 is a Serbian developed concept from 2015, thus a finished project that is in its improvement stage. The prototype is yet to be made for testing.

The picture of the concept tank incorporated in the article is the concept picture of the developers that presented the concept at the Partner EXPO in Belgrade in 2015 besides a 3D printed model of the concept to showcase the future Serbian MBT after the Yugoslavian designed, developed and produced M-84 which derives from the Soviet T-72.

M-84 Information

It is logical in itself making your post obsolete spam and off topic.

 

View PostJigabachi, on 14 January 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostNinjasaky, on 14 January 2019 - 04:27 PM, said:

It's not called "copy" in the reality of tank development.

But this isn't takd developement, this is a game. And in this game, it's called a copy.

You mentioned variety at the end. Copies aren't variety. Copies are boring and don't add anything to the game.

It's time for you to put your blind patriotism aside and face the reality: Most of the tanks you see in this thread are copies, meaning that you won't get a full tree. So grab the tanks that are truly unique and put your effort into the introduction of those.

 

Vehicle implementation in the game starts from real life tank development. Gamers are gamers and understand very little about tank development thus those of less fortunate knowledge choose to call it a copy if ones nation tank looks similar to another nation's tank but are two different vehicles with different characteristics.

The Yugoslavian tech tree adds variety through their unique designs and characteristics of each vehicle that aren't similar to their counterparts.

Just like this list of tanks currently in the game that I previously posted:

Spoiler

 

This is a game and patriotism or accusing someone of patriotism has no place here and isn't being constructive towards this topic thus you are drifting off topic. That's the reality.

"Truly unique" and "unique" doesn't have a difference and is not constructive a constructive tank development language.

11:15 Added after 1 minute
 

View PostCon_Clavi_Con_Dio, on 14 January 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

Wargaming should do a Techtree with different countrys.

There are many countrys who made 1 or 2 Tanks. The can make an Techtree with this tanks.

Jugo Tanks ( i know atleast from an SPG) or the M84

Austrian Tanks "Kurrasier"

Australian "Vickers"

Argentinien hat welche gebaut

 

That won't happen in this case since Yugoslavia has its full tech tree which this thread is about (Yugoslavian tech tree which can be found at this link: Link ) which tanks are combined development made in Yugoslavia, just like the tanks in this list when it comes to combined development:

Spoiler






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