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Question about Spotting


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VsUK #1 Posted 02 February 2018 - 11:44 AM

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What's the difference between a light, med, td or heavy tank spotting an enemy tank? Does the light tank have xray vision or has the commander gone to specsavers or something? Aside from being less visible to the enemy & a longer view range. If a tank is well within the typical view range of all tanks. How can the light/med spot you & yet a heavy is unable? Spotting requires the view ports on tanks. No one tank has a clear advantage over another, only on distance they can spot & their visibility to other tanks. 

I'm asking because I was in my Grill & shown as green dot. An E-100 was where the red dot is, moving & shooting. But I was firing at the E-100 & I wasn't detected. But when a T100 LT moved out from the bulding & up the road marked in yellow, he detected me & the E-100 turned & shot me. No other enemy tanks near by able to spot me. As it was just 2 SPGs & 2 TDs down on the 1, 2 line. The only tanks close enough able to spot me was the T100 LT & the E-100. But it was the light tank that detected me. So if someone can explain if you have the time. Because I don't get why 1 heavy very close cant see me, but a light much further away can.

 


Edited by VsUK, 02 February 2018 - 11:45 AM.


Browarszky #2 Posted 02 February 2018 - 11:58 AM

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There's probably a reason why I've seen the phrase 'dodgy spotting mechanics' mentioned in connection with WoT...

arthurwellsley #3 Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:00 PM

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Short Answer = a well equipped scout will spot a td at about 150-160 metres.

 

this website lets you work it out by punching in variables = http://www.wotinfo.n...camo-calculator

 

Long complicated answer with detail below =

 

 

For a light tank the higher your spotting ability, the more chance to have to penetrate the camo value of a td behind a bush.

 

Lets say the td camo is Y

the bush camo is X

Therefore to spot you the light must have more spotting value than X+Y

 

The light will have a high view range number anyway as a base to start 100 Lt = 390 (alone this would not probably get over X+Y)

The light has no spotting perks (rubbish crew) = no chance

Uses Optics =10% probably another 60 metres or so

Uses food =  adds 10% again in a different way so 20 metres or so

Has ventilation = adds 5%

Has situational awareness on loader/radioman = adds 3%

Has recon on commander = adds 2%

Has BIA adds a few extra metres.

Commander at 100% also gives a tiny bonus to each crew members perks.

 

Using an example worked out by a player nicknamed Dread;

 

"WZ-132 View Range =
400m
+ .10 X 400m (Coated Optics)                = 440m
+ .02 X 440m (Recon)                        = 448.8m
+ *.03.663 X 448.8m (Situational Awareness) = 465.239544m 
*Note: 10% of the Commander's skill applied to all crew. So Situational Awareness +3% becomes +3.3% from Ventilation and BIA. Commander is at 110% also from Ventilation and BIA.
So 10% of 110% is 11%. 11% of 3.3% is .363%. Add .363% to 3.3% = +3.663%

(D / 0.875)*(0.00375*P+0.5)
 
D = 465.239544 meters
P = 110 (100% Commander  +5% BIA + 5% Vents)
(465.239544m / .875) X [(.00375 X 110) + .5] = 485.1783816 meters 

WZ-132 View Range = 485.18 meters
 

Borsig Camo Rating =
 
[baseCamo * (0.00375 * camoSkill + 0.5)] + (camoAtShot + camoPattern + camoNet + environmentCamo)
 
22.51% base camo
+ 100% Camo Crew *(115.5 + 115.5 + 115.5 +105 / 4 = 112.875 average camo skill of all crew)
*Note: Camo crew skill is calculated as follows - 10% of Commander skill is applied to crew. Commander is at 105% from Brothers in Arms. Crew is at 105% from Brothers in Arms. 10% of Commander's 105% is 10.5%, +10.5% to every crew 
member = 105% + 10.5% = 115.5%

.2251% X [(.00375 X 112.875) + 0.5] + (.2251% + .05% + *.15% + .50%)
.2251% X [(.00375 X 112.875) + 0.5] + .9251
.2251% X .92328125 + .9251
.207830609375 + .9251 = 113.3% or 1.133 CamoRating (Per in game mechanics, camo rating cannot exceed a value of 1. So 1.133 becomes 1.)
 
WZ-132 View Range = 485.18 meters
Borsig CamoRating = 1

 
Spotting range formula = View range - [(view range - 50m) X CamoRating % ] 
 
485.18 meters - [1 X (485.18 - 50)]
485.18 - (1 X 435.18)
485.18 - 435.18 = 50 meters

The answer to this hypothetical situation is then that the WZ-132 would not spot the Rhm.-B.WT until he was within 50 meters of him. You will notice that this is proximity range detection. Meaning that the Borsig's CamoRating is so high, that if it has all the above skills and crew perks, is in a dense bush, does not move, and does not fire - It will not get spotted until the WZ-132 comes within proximity detection range (50m).
 
Most situations on the battlefield you encounter will not be this extreme. And rarely will an enemy tank's CamoRating be 100%, it will usually be in the 25-50% range. The principles of the formula still apply. It may seem like a lot of work, but really when you know all the variables and have practiced, the equation becomes quite easy. A more simple example would be as follows:
 
500m view range
.75 camo rating
 
500m - [(500 - 50 ) X .75)
500m - (450 X .75)
500m - 337.5
= 162.5m
 
The enemy tank will be spotted with the given values at 162.5 meters."

 

Kudos to Dread at here http://forum.worldof...and-camo-guide/

 

 

 


Edited by arthurwellsley, 02 February 2018 - 12:24 PM.


K_A #4 Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:03 PM

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A replay would be nice.

xx984 #5 Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:15 PM

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Perhaps Edited :hiding:

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to naming and shaming.


Edited by VMX, 02 February 2018 - 01:11 PM.


Grinnen_Baeritt #6 Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:33 PM

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Unfortunately, WG have chosen the route of making tanks into classes, with certain tanks fitting into specific roles. Common sense, reality and logic have all been conveniently forgotten or ignored in this process of implementing this class system.


 

A light tank is small, fast and mobile... it's also fragile (apparently). The game mechanics increase it's survivability/usefulness/balance by increasing it's spotting range and camo values when moving so that it is better (in most cases) than other vehicles of differing classes in the same tier.


 

That's where it breaks down, or at least, reality.


 

1. ANY moving vehicle simply should not have the same spotting range as a motionless one, nor should it be able to "proximity spot" whilst moving. The distractions are too many for the crew who will be multi-tasking.. Seeing out of View slits to give a generally 360 view around the vehicle are fine, and so are gun sights and the commanders position. But trying to do that whilst "snap-spotting" should be harder than just sitting still.

2. ANY Commander can use Binoculars in Reality... so why, is a commander of ALL motionless vehicles penalised by view range in comparison to others?


 

My solution would be to make spotting mechanics similar to a vehicles aiming times. That means that detection rate is entirely based on it's size & height, modified by the proportion of the tank that is visible and it's relative speed to the vehicle that has the potential to spot it. Therefore, smaller vehicles, will get spotted less whilst vehicles moving faster will get spotted faster.

The Maximum View range should be altered to allow ANY vehicle to gradually attain it, as long as they are motionless. Therefore, a TD  with a poor view range will slowly expand it's view range as it sits motionless. The differences in vehicle class can be introduced by altering the rates at which that maximum can be attained.    

 

 



K_A #7 Posted 02 February 2018 - 12:33 PM

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View PostVsUK, on 02 February 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

 

There's no reply because I don't stop after every game & plunk replays into a separate folder. This happened last night & I thought I would ask a question how this was possible. No replay required. 

Also, someone very kindly explained the spotting mechanics, which kinda explains why the light could spot me & the E-100 I was shooting couldn't. No need for sarky comments. So change the record & grow up!

 

Yes, arthurwellsley's post explains quite nicely why the light spotted you, but not why the E-100 didn't. 

 

Your distance to him was about 80 meters if the dots are in their correct places. 

 

Now, given and E-100's 400m view range, in an extreme case he will have view ports destroyed and a dead commander reducing his view range by a total of 75%, down to 100 meters. If at this stage you were still bushed, he would be on the edge of spotting you. If you were bushed and camo net active, then you'd probably be safe up to a distance of around 70 meters. If he had either part of his tank intact he should have 100% spotted you when you fired at him from that distance. 

 

This is of course the thing we could examine from a replay. Without it we can purely speculate with wild assumptions on what was and wasn't. It could also well be that the light didn't actually spot you, it was in fact the E-100 but your first shot was obscured somehow and so he only spotted you on the second or third shot or something. Again, impossible to say without a replay.



Eaglax #8 Posted 02 February 2018 - 01:01 PM

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View PostVsUK, on 02 February 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

 

There's no reply because I don't stop after every game & plunk replays into a separate folder. This happened last night & I thought I would ask a question how this was possible. No replay required. 

Also, someone very kindly explained the spotting mechanics, which kinda explains why the light could spot me & the E-100 I was shooting couldn't. No need for sarky comments. So change the record & grow up!

 

the replays have a name, consisting also of the map and tank name. Just open the folder and search for "ruinberg" - sort by date - take the one with the grille - upload....not that difficult, is it?

If you are not using an aimbot there shouldn't be much of a problem..

 

and a replay is indeed needed, your screenshot is useless....who says that you weren't spotted by someone in the middle? or by the E-100 after all? only because the LT popped up doesn't mean that HE spotted you. Or maybe  the bushes in front of you may have covered you from the E100 but not the LT?

So many question which would be answered if you would post a simple replay.

 

If you should still refuse to show a replay, hereis the wiki link, everything is explained there

 

 

 

 


Edited by Eaglax, 02 February 2018 - 01:04 PM.


Geno1isme #9 Posted 02 February 2018 - 01:14 PM

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Would need to know the actual positioning of the E100 and your tank. Probably the E100 had it's viewpoint covered behind a building and therefore no LOS to any of your detection points, nothing to do with viewrange at all.

Balc0ra #10 Posted 02 February 2018 - 01:20 PM

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A replay would be 10x more useful vs a map with dots on it. As that tells the full story, your map tells half of it. But since you don't have it...

 

As we don't know where the rest of the enemy team is. Or how many are un-spotted. For all you know someone on the F line spotted you, or a TD in base. You said there were SPG's and TD's down that line. But if they have not been spotted for awhile, how knows if they are still there. Or if they moved to get a better fire line. Or what tanks was not spotted at that point etc. As the map don't 100% reflect what path the LT-100 took. It's not easy to say where his spotting lines went exactly vs the E-100 to say why he did not spot you, or even if he did. For all we know the E-100 had his two spotting lines blocked by the buildings vs your position. As in if you only see his lower plate or rear etc. Not the gun or hatch. And could not see you at that distance unless he moved up or down a bit. But the LT-100 did spot you between the building gaps when you fired somehow.. If he was the one spotting you. As without 100% knowing where their lines went vs your exact position vs bushes and buildings, anything said is nothing more speculations sadly.

 

As more so then not. Shady spotting system is due to a tank being closer then you think that you don't see vs bad mechanics. As if you can be that close to the E-100 and fire without getting spotted, why can't the enemy? Unless you are 100% sure the LT-100 was alone on the 0 line. And no other enemy tank had ventured down it to spot you from the back. As I said, you map only tells half the story. Where two of the enemy tanks are really don't help shed any light on what might have happened.


Edited by Balc0ra, 02 February 2018 - 01:30 PM.


TungstenHitman #11 Posted 02 February 2018 - 01:21 PM

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Without replay it's just a hypothetical scenario and so all you'll get is hypothetical answers tbh. Hypothetically the light tank didn't spot you at all you just ASSUME it was the light tank. Again without replay we won't know(which automatically gets stored in replays folder btw it ain't no effort to track down that battle) but hypothetically you or the heavy tank may have moved 1 pixel forwards as to proxy spot or there could have been another high camo LT or TD in the area that just about caught a pixel of your tank poking out. There's a LOT of bush coverings in that area are between those buildings all the way along the road right the way to the redline crossroads east which get utilized heavily during battles on this map... natural hull down and snipe points of attack down at TDs and Arty in the corner.. was probably a light tank you never even saw.

VsUK #12 Posted 02 February 2018 - 02:29 PM

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Well I only have 1 replay that overrides the previous on the next battle. I didn't intent to ask about it when i finished that game. It was late & I had work things to finish up. But this morning It popped into my head & thought I would ask. The second reply was most informative. Also, just because I don't know every in & outs of this game doesn't make me stupid, like the abusive little so & so sent me in a private PM about this post. Reported btw. 

I wasn't sure how it was possible so I asked. I was given a detailed breakdown of the spotting, which I have saved to re-read again if I forget & I doubt again. There's no justification for rudeness or childish comments. This forum is full of A, People who share an opinion & people give their own view on your opinion. B, People ask a question & people reply with answers for the question, C, you have a little rant & rave about something you're not happy about & people reply to agree or disagree with you. Always in a polite & mature manor. And D, People who have no intention to reply about the topic or comments. But reply with rudeness, insults & provocative comments with no purpose of being constructive & informative. But purely to troll. Just a shame there's some who constantly choose option D.

Balc0ra #13 Posted 02 February 2018 - 02:45 PM

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View PostVsUK, on 02 February 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

Well I only have 1 replay that overrides the previous on the next battle. I didn't intent to ask about it when i finished that game. It was late & I had work things to finish up. But this morning It popped into my head & thought I would ask. 

 

Fair enough

 

View PostVsUK, on 02 February 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

I wasn't sure how it was possible so I asked. I was given a detailed breakdown of the spotting, which I have saved to re-read again if I forget & I doubt again. T

 

Break down on spotting and how the math works on view range etc is one thing. But since we don't know exactly how many of those bushes and buildings was between all of you at any given time to increase or decrease that camo. It's not really ideal for this scenario. As going by the map line, the LT should have some double bush between you and him on most of that line. As I said, it could have been the E100 moving just to get the view range lines on you if he did not spot you earlier at that distance. Just because you see him and his spotting dots on the wheel. Don't indicate that his spotting lines can see you. Thus why I asked if you saw his gun or cupola all the time, or just the rear etc. And as you did not say if you were alone there with regards to team mates on the 0 line. Or if it was wide open to even get spotted from there by a 3rd hidden tank.



Baldrickk #14 Posted 02 February 2018 - 02:49 PM

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OP sure is asking a lot of gameplay mechanic related questions considering his battle count...

One might wonder why.  Still, I guess it can only be a positive thing

Asklepi0s #15 Posted 02 February 2018 - 06:31 PM

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I cleaned this thread due to arguements.
Please try to avoid personal atacks in the future.
Have a nice evening !


Dorander #16 Posted 02 February 2018 - 06:39 PM

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My best guess is that it isn't a matter of spotting range but of spotting locations on the relevant tanks.

 

There are 6 points on your tank from which you can be spotted, of which 2 are also points your tanks can spot from. If memory serves this is the front center, front rear, side centers, commander's hatch and base of your gun, the last two being also points on your tank that you can spot from.

 

The game draws imaginary lines between your spot points and other tanks' spottable points, if a straight line is possible, the spot/camo calculations as arthurwellesley has explained kick in. Perhaps the E100's hatch and gun could not draw a straight line to one of your spotting points, or perhaps they could and you had too much camo for his spotting range. Perhaps the light tank had an unobstructed view to one of your spotting points because perhaps the midpoint of your side was sticking out of the bush.

 

Maybe the E100's commander was knocked out which *drastically* reduces your viewrange.

 

It's all just guesswork but these are possible explanations for why the light tank spotted you and the E100 didn't that have nothing to do with some inherent difference between light and heavy tanks, which AFAIK does not exist. Spotrange is spotrange. The only real scouting advantage light tanks have is that they retain full camouflage value while moving (compared to stationary) and while moving and firing (compared to stationary and firing).



somegras #17 Posted 02 February 2018 - 06:56 PM

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View PostAsklepi0s, on 02 February 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

I cleaned this thread due to arguements.
Please try to avoid personal atacks in the future.
Have a nice evening !

 

Just close the topic. OPs question has been answered and its not like anything else constructive will come out of either the OP nor the replies.

Draz_H #18 Posted 02 February 2018 - 07:17 PM

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View PostAsklepi0s, on 02 February 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

I cleaned this thread due to arguements.
Please try to avoid personal atacks in the future.
Have a nice evening !

 

Thank you for creating a much needed safe-space for a known cheater. All hail the mods!

Grinnen_Baeritt #19 Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:09 PM

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View Postsomegras, on 02 February 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

 

Just close the topic. OPs question has been answered and its not like anything else constructive will come out of either the OP nor the replies.

 

Indeed. It's not as if WG will actually try and change something, you know, just because it's broken.... and people complain about it. ;)

TungstenHitman #20 Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:12 PM

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View PostAsklepi0s, on 02 February 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

I cleaned this thread due to arguements.
Please try to avoid personal atacks in the future.
Have a nice evening !

 

Sensible moderating. Better than just simply locking a thread immediately. Who knows, maybe something helpful might come from it, if not, it's easy to lock it later. :)




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