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High tier TD's and their Alpha


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MasterEggious #1 Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:01 PM

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I feel like high teir TD's just have too much alpha. 750 average is a big number when you think about it. Take the ISU-152 for example. It has enough pen to go through the turret armor of a hull down Centurian One, it only really has to hit the tank 2-3 times to kill it, it's worse for tier 6 tanks that face it. I would really like to hear other opinions on this subject because for me it feels like TD's are to dominant now that it's harder for the SPG's to eliminate them. 

unrealname #2 Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:16 PM

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to be honest, only tier 10 tds should have 750 alpha, tier 8 and 9 tds having 750 alpha is definitely not good for the game, as they 2 shot lower tiers most of the time, tier 6s are one shots for their guns, thats a great fun for new players going up the tiers against them.

lord_chipmonk #3 Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:34 PM

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While I don't disagree, the problem is not at high tiers only. I mean, come on, a tier 6 TD with 390 alpha? It will 1 shot some lower tiers and reliably 2 shot anything the same tier. 

psychobear #4 Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:50 PM

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View PostMasterEggious, on 04 February 2018 - 11:01 PM, said:

I feel like high teir TD's just have too much alpha. 750 average is a big number when you think about it. Take the ISU-152 for example. It has enough pen to go through the turret armor of a hull down Centurian One, it only really has to hit the tank 2-3 times to kill it, it's worse for tier 6 tanks that face it. I would really like to hear other opinions on this subject because for me it feels like TD's are to dominant now that it's harder for the SPG's to eliminate them. 

 

SPG's were never a specific counter to TD's, other than in theory. 

Anyway, TD's are ok, they can be avoided and countered, since they need direct line of fire. The problem lies with the SPG's, it's this stupid r3tarded class that should be removed from the game.



Search_Warrant #5 Posted 05 February 2018 - 01:29 AM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 04 February 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

While I don't disagree, the problem is not at high tiers only. I mean, come on, a tier 6 TD with 390 alpha? It will 1 shot some lower tiers and reliably 2 shot anything the same tier. 

 

Wonder why they dident give china tier 6 TD the 390 alpha gun? oh wait only rasha can have stupid boomsticks that shouldent be on low tiers.

jack_timber #6 Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:02 AM

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Yes but ISU152 has recently been nerfed, remember the BL10 fondly, although the dispersion remains the same. Fully aimed shot eaten by tracks or misses, happens quite a few times... But when it does hit it can do serious damage.

 



Dava_117 #7 Posted 05 February 2018 - 12:06 PM

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View Postjack_timber, on 05 February 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

Yes but ISU152 has recently been nerfed, remember the BL10 fondly, although the dispersion remains the same. Fully aimed shot eaten by tracks or misses, happens quite a few times... But when it does hit it can do serious damage.

 

 

Miss BL-10 a lot. Still eat IS-3 alive, but now you need gold to pen Type5, so lots of the fun is gone... :(

Edited by Dava_117, 05 February 2018 - 12:07 PM.


VsUK #8 Posted 05 February 2018 - 12:22 PM

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I think the SU-152 & ISU-152's have too much alpha. I mean I've been hit in a Tier 9 heavy by an SU-152 & it did more damage than being shot at by a Tier 9 TD.

WindSplitter1 #9 Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:35 PM

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View Postpsychobear, on 04 February 2018 - 09:50 PM, said:

 

SPG's were never a specific counter to TD's, other than in theory. 

Anyway, TD's are ok, they can be avoided and countered, since they need direct line of fire. The problem lies with the SPG's, it's this stupid r3tarded class that should be removed from the game.

 

Aye... I'm not gonna enter in a Arty - Anti-Arty argument. But the thing with TDs is that they can "lock" some parts of the map (like in Prokh, the bush line).

 

They can be avoided and countered. Absolutely, no arguments against there, but the problem lies in finding them. Sometimes, you can get hit for 750 HP simply by travelling and even though the hit mark will show you the fire direction, to ensure you cause damage to it, you still need to spot it.

 

Some TDs are nigh invisible. I had my Borsig 61m away , closing in to 51m from a CdA and the only time he saw me was in his post-mortem view.

 

Others have armour and HP to battle. I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying, it's not as easy as it seems. Nor fun either.



lord_chipmonk #10 Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:38 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 05 February 2018 - 01:29 AM, said:

 

Wonder why they dident give china tier 6 TD the 390 alpha gun? oh wait only rasha can have stupid boomsticks that shouldent be on low tiers.

 

St. Emil has 490 alpha at tier 7. 

Laatikkomafia #11 Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:52 PM

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At tier 8, there are heavy tanks with 490 and 440 alpha.

 

Now imagine you slapped that alpha on a somewhat sluggish TD without a turret and with limited gun traverse. WG should give it a ROF of 6 with 0.35 accuracy in order it to be even somewhat viable in the corridor maps we have.

 

The drawback of not having a turret is quite massive.



Ricky_Rolls #12 Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:56 PM

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The main problem at t10 is not td's with 750, but those with 1050 and 1150, and i'm not even talking about this stupid 1750 HESH that shouldn't even be in the game. Those tanks are borderline useless 90% of the time, except that they will ruin you're game in a single hit.

SuedKAT #13 Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:59 PM

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Can't even remember the last time I had issues countering a noneturreted TD, their drawbacks are simply massive and most of them don't fit the current meta at all. Sure getting blasted for 750 damage all of a sudden is unpleasant but it happens so rarely and it's easily avoided. In the days of the unbalanced Super HT meta and corridor maps I'd rather argue that a lot of TD's need significant buffs since many of them are in quite a bad state currently.

Hotwired #14 Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:15 PM

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View PostRicky_Rolls, on 05 February 2018 - 07:56 PM, said:

The main problem at t10 is not td's with 750, but those with 1050 and 1150, and i'm not even talking about this stupid 1750 HESH that shouldn't even be in the game. Those tanks are borderline useless 90% of the time, except that they will ruin you're game in a single hit.

 

Which is what balances them...

 

How you die is totally irrelevant, the big alpha TD's cannot be consistent because they are so crippled.

 

Flexible tanks with good enough firepower break the game, high alpha only breaks peoples fragile emotions.


Edited by Daxeno, 06 February 2018 - 04:07 PM.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to use of the red color.


unrealname #15 Posted 05 February 2018 - 10:13 PM

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View PostSuedKAT, on 05 February 2018 - 09:59 PM, said:

Can't even remember the last time I had issues countering a noneturreted TD, their drawbacks are simply massive and most of them don't fit the current meta at all. Sure getting blasted for 750 damage all of a sudden is unpleasant but it happens so rarely and it's easily avoided. In the days of the unbalanced Super HT meta and corridor maps I'd rather argue that a lot of TD's need significant buffs since many of them are in quite a bad state currently.

 

in current meta well armored tds with big guns is one of the ways to go. how can a non turreted td be bad in corridor maps? its the open maps that they are crap on, tds like t95, e3, buffed tortoise, badger, jpz e100, china wz one, next patch obj268v4 with idiotproof armor - all of them are very well suited for current meta of goldspam and superheavies. why in the hell would you need a turret in a corridor? if you only have to point your gun in one direction with quite shallow angle most of the time.

Edited by unrealname, 05 February 2018 - 10:13 PM.


Toni112007 #16 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:52 AM

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View Postunrealname, on 05 February 2018 - 10:13 PM, said:

 

in current meta well armored tds with big guns is one of the ways to go. how can a non turreted td be bad in corridor maps? its the open maps that they are crap on, tds like t95, e3, buffed tortoise, badger, jpz e100, china wz one, next patch obj268v4 with idiotproof armor - all of them are very well suited for current meta of goldspam and superheavies. why in the hell would you need a turret in a corridor? if you only have to point your gun in one direction with quite shallow angle most of the time.

Jagdpanzer E100 is pos compared to tier 9 Jagdtiger.



xPraetoriaNx #17 Posted 06 February 2018 - 07:49 AM

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View PostHotwired, on 05 February 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

 

Which is what balances them...

 

How you die is totally irrelevant, the big alpha TD's cannot be consistent because they are so crippled.

 

Flexible tanks with good enough firepower break the game, high alpha only breaks peoples fragile emotions.

 

So losing half (or more) of my HP from 1 hit is only bad for my "fragile emotions", and in no way does it influence the game... Okay.

Edited by xPraetoriaNx, 06 February 2018 - 07:49 AM.


Simeon85 #18 Posted 06 February 2018 - 09:52 AM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 05 February 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

At tier 8, there are heavy tanks with 490

 

No there isn't, Mauerbrecker, Defender, Vk 1001P all have 440, despite the German heavies having 128mm like the TDs. They considered having them with 490 alpha, it was definitely super tested, they even super tested the Mauerbrecker with 750 alpha. 

 

Ultimately they decided against it, though it is no coincidence IMO that the two 440 alpha heavies on tier 8 are also two of the most OP tanks in the game. Tier 8 heavy alpha should max be 400. 

 

View PostToni112007, on 06 February 2018 - 01:52 AM, said:

Jagdpanzer E100 is pos compared to tier 9 Jagdtiger.

 

That is because of extreme balancing, Jagdtiger has 560 alpha, a balanced amount for tier 9, it needs 4 shots to kill most tier 8 heavies and high rolls on most of the mediums, plus 3 shots to kill most tier 8s. That means the rest of the tank can be made better so the Jagtiger has good gun handling for a TD, better mobility than the tier 10 etc.

 

Whereas the JpE100 trades everything pretty much for 1k alpha and 300 pen, the rest of the tank is terrible because of it. 

 

----------------------------------------

 

I'd say currently the JpE100, both 183s, the ISU-152, Borsig with the 150mm, the SU-152, the SU-100 and the S35CA with the 105, currently are TDs with alpha that is too high for their tiers and they need re-balancing with lower alpha for better other characteristics. 

 

I'd also add in all the derp guns that are spattered about, so all the Japanese heavies, KV-2 etc. 

 

The high alpha TDs are flat out broken, because of the high alpha they cripple the tank in other ways to make it awkward and annoying to play, whilst it's frustrating to play against because one mistake or even just trying to push, means you lose half or in some cases all of your HP.  That creates passive play and campy flanks, especially when most of these tanks sit in base camping locations that means they are very hard to spot or flank. So a JpE100 sits in base, on his comfy platform staring all game down one flank and no one wants to push because they will lose 1k, not good for gameplay. 


Edited by Simeon85, 06 February 2018 - 09:56 AM.


jimbobjammybob #19 Posted 06 February 2018 - 10:05 AM

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I like variety, I like the danger! I like fun! what next remove KV2?

 

 



Hotwired #20 Posted 06 February 2018 - 10:52 AM

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View PostxPraetoriaNx, on 06 February 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

 

So losing half (or more) of my HP from 1 hit is only bad for my "fragile emotions", and in no way does it influence the game... Okay.

 

I'll quote the exact post you just quoted and I'll highlight the bits you didn't understand.

 

View PostRicky_Rolls, on 05 February 2018 - 07:56 PM, said:

The main problem at t10 is not td's with 750, but those with 1050 and 1150, and i'm not even talking about this stupid 1750 HESH that shouldn't even be in the game. Those tanks are borderline useless 90% of the time, except that they will ruin you're game in a single hit.

 

View PostHotwired, on 05 February 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

 

Which is what balances them...

 

How you die is totally irrelevant, the big alpha TD's cannot be consistent because they are so crippled.

 

Flexible tanks with good enough firepower break the game, high alpha only breaks peoples fragile emotions.

 

Just those bits.

 

Stop taking damage personally. Getting nuked out of a game means nothing. The result of one game means nothing. Many results mean a lot.

 

High alpha TDs rarely decide games by themselves, they have potential for large per shell damage because they spend huge amounts of time being totally useless.

 

A 183 with HESH or AP is weak at deciding games because it can't make moves by itself without massive risk. It's the E3 with 375mm gold pen and upwards of 350mm armour over most of the front that actually distorts the game.

 

But that's not the alpha damage. It's the tank package as a whole which makes the E3 vastly better.

 

When someone tells the forum they are unhappy about alpha damage and say it's really important because this one time they got hit and felt really bad all it means is they take it too personally.






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