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Spotting mechanics seem unnecessarily complicated?


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theonlymaverick #1 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:00 PM

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First and foremost I would like to point out three things:

 

1) This is just a honest thread trying to understand why the spotting mechanics seem simply too complicated.

2) I am relatively 'new' to WoT but have been playing WoWs for a couple of years with a few thousand games under my belt.

3) I have watched the spotting mechanics video and they still simply do not make any sense (i.e. based upon a formula that currently means you can have a tank destroyer with a huge gun, spotting and firing at a light tank who has no idea that it is there).

 

Unlike WoWs, the spotting mechanics are not based off gun calibre or height; in WoT they appear to be based off a baked in base view range value (not freely available in game), improved by any modifiers such as commander skills or modules. Surely the bigger the gun, the more gas it produces, the more visible said tank will be? Or the height of the tank makes it stick out like a sore thumb?

 

Which brings me onto the second point; because spotting is not based off gun calibre, and their bloom isn't to your max detection range like in WoWs, you end up in a situation where somebody can be shooting at you with a big gun (85mm+) and still remain undetected. Doesn't anyone think that this is simply bizarre?  That you can remain undetected even when you announce your position to the world firing these larger calibre guns, how can you punish that, how does the game allow you to respond? Or at least your team respond, when they remain undetected thanks to the spotting mechanics? I mean no amount of camouflage can hide the gas/flash of a 105mm L7 or a Flak 8.8.

 

The WoWs development team realised that stealth firing was a problem in the game and implemented mechanics that have still roughly kept game balance, while making the game all the more enjoyable. This was based on the fact that if you fire your weapon, there has to be consequences, and subsequently have to make better decisions about when to fire more appropriately. So why hasn't WoT? I mean, WoT has been around a lot longer, and is clearly a good game;  so the question I cannot comprehend the answer to, is why hasn't the development team followed the suit of WoWs and simplified these fundamental mechanics? 

 

Finally, WoWs has a 'detected' marker that gives the player information if they are detected; WoT has the incredibly useful sixth sense skill, however it is essentially stuck behind either a pay wall or a significant number of games in the tank, mainly because it is linked to your commander. Wouldn't it be better to simply build this into the hud? I mean you wouldn't know where the enemy was, but at least you would have a chance to defend yourself or manoeuvre. It doesn't prevent the enemy firing back at you, and doesn't take away the skill of getting a hit on the enemy tank; however it would make the game much less frustrating to play.

 

I appreciate people will attempt to respond with the usual 'get good' and 'here is the video l2p' responses; however coming from another WG title, I am purely interested in why the spotting mechanics are overly complicated, and based on my experiences so far, do not work as well as they probably should do.

 

 

 

 



Gboor #2 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:10 PM

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http://www.wotinfo.n...amo_explanation

 

Block Quote

6, Shooting. While shooting the vehicle is loosing almost all of its camo. The impact depends on installed cannon. The rule larger caliber brings larger camo penalties.

 

Thats why for example skorpion G as td with big gun has almost no camo after shot

You created topic about some imagined mechanics, but you didn't even bother to check how really spotting mechanics work in wot. How would anyone take this topic seriously?
 

Edited by Gboor, 06 February 2018 - 01:14 PM.


TankkiPoju #3 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:12 PM

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ricoBenitez1 #4 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:27 PM

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WOWS is on water while WOT are on dry land, so more cammoflage on land, i take it that op has not been in the army and by such dosent know what or how camoflage really works.

Coldspell #5 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:31 PM

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You don't seem to mention camo rating at all... Which explains a lot of misconceptions,  view range of tanks are available in garage and sixth sense special equip are available for bonds at a very cheap price.

HaZardeur #6 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:33 PM

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Spotting is only complicated when your brain capacity is on par with:

 



vasilinhorulezz #7 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:40 PM

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No.

It's very simple actually,

if you have more view range than the enemy's camo you spot him, if not you can't.

Simple.


Edited by vasilinhorulezz, 06 February 2018 - 01:40 PM.


Cobra6 #8 Posted 06 February 2018 - 01:41 PM

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Spotting is made more complicated than it should be because different bushes/foliage have different camo values which you can find nowhere. So it's always guess-work if a bush will actually count as camouflage if you fire from 16m+ behind it or not.

 

Cobra 6



lord_chipmonk #9 Posted 06 February 2018 - 03:25 PM

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View Posttheonlymaverick, on 06 February 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

First and foremost I would like to point out three things:

 

1) This is just a honest thread trying to understand why the spotting mechanics seem simply too complicated.

2) I am relatively 'new' to WoT but have been playing WoWs for a couple of years with a few thousand games under my belt.

3) I have watched the spotting mechanics video and they still simply do not make any sense (i.e. based upon a formula that currently means you can have a tank destroyer with a huge gun, spotting and firing at a light tank who has no idea that it is there).

 

Unlike WoWs, the spotting mechanics are not based off gun calibre or height; in WoT they appear to be based off a baked in base view range value (not freely available in game), improved by any modifiers such as commander skills or modules. Surely the bigger the gun, the more gas it produces, the more visible said tank will be? Or the height of the tank makes it stick out like a sore thumb?

 

Actually you're wrong here. In WoT, tanks have 3 different camo values: stationary, moving and after firing the gun (and a combination of these three). Generally speaking, the higher the vehicle, the worse the camo rating (so height does matter) and generally larger calibre guns reduce your camo rating by more when you pull the trigger. So, height and gun caliber do make a difference. 

 

Which brings me onto the second point; because spotting is not based off gun calibre, and their bloom isn't to your max detection range like in WoWs, you end up in a situation where somebody can be shooting at you with a big gun (85mm+) and still remain undetected. Doesn't anyone think that this is simply bizarre?  That you can remain undetected even when you announce your position to the world firing these larger calibre guns, how can you punish that, how does the game allow you to respond? Or at least your team respond, when they remain undetected thanks to the spotting mechanics? I mean no amount of camouflage can hide the gas/flash of a 105mm L7 or a Flak 8.8. 

 

Hide behind a decent enough bush, and you could obscure the smoke from your gun. Seems reasonable to be. Sure, it might not always work and in realityfiring the gun makes it more likely you will be seen IRL, but doesn't guarantee anything. The game tries to replicate this. 

 

The WoWs development team realised that stealth firing was a problem in the game and implemented mechanics that have still roughly kept game balance, while making the game all the more enjoyable. This was based on the fact that if you fire your weapon, there has to be consequences, and subsequently have to make better decisions about when to fire more appropriately. So why hasn't WoT? I mean, WoT has been around a lot longer, and is clearly a good game;  so the question I cannot comprehend the answer to, is why hasn't the development team followed the suit of WoWs and simplified these fundamental mechanics? 

 

Perhaps because in WoWS you are more likely to have large open tracts that people can shoot you in whereas in WoT you are more likely to have some hard cover to use if necessary? Just a thought. 

 

Finally, WoWs has a 'detected' marker that gives the player information if they are detected; WoT has the incredibly useful sixth sense skill, however it is essentially stuck behind either a pay wall or a significant number of games in the tank, mainly because it is linked to your commander. Wouldn't it be better to simply build this into the hud? I mean you wouldn't know where the enemy was, but at least you would have a chance to defend yourself or manoeuvre. It doesn't prevent the enemy firing back at you, and doesn't take away the skill of getting a hit on the enemy tank; however it would make the game much less frustrating to play.

 

Yeah, you're not the first to suggest this and WG have been saying that they wand to overhaul the whole crew skill system for some time. Guess it will happen soonTM

 

I appreciate people will attempt to respond with the usual 'get good' and 'here is the video l2p' responses; however coming from another WG title, I am purely interested in why the spotting mechanics are overly complicated, and based on my experiences so far, do not work as well as they probably should do.

 

Thoughts in bold above. Any apparent sarcasm etc. is not intended. 



TheDrownedApe #10 Posted 06 February 2018 - 04:05 PM

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yes it is a complicated affair indeed. I still find myself moving back 16m behind a bush (as Cobra mentioned) and firing and still getting spotted. It's crazy but it is what it is. It will take you a long time to still not fully understand it and even then you can never be sure if you will be spotted in a game or not. All you can do is kinda learn the basic average spotting ranges of tanks up to tier 8 - after that assume 450m as a good baseline and stick on the map circle mod and think whether you will get spotted or not based on your distance away.

250swb #11 Posted 06 February 2018 - 05:12 PM

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View Posttheonlymaverick, on 06 February 2018 - 12:00 PM, said:

 in WoT they appear to be based off a baked in base view range value (not freely available in game), improved by any modifiers such as commander skills or modules. 

 

 

All the values you need are in the garage in the specification menu that pops up next to each tank. You have the base camo value, add a camo net and you see the base camo value go up, the crew get camo skills and you see the camo value go up, you add camo paint to the tank you see the camo value go up. You have the vehicles base view range, you add some bino's and you see the view range increase, your radio operator gets the 'situational awareness' skill and the view range increases. 



Pansenmann #12 Posted 06 February 2018 - 10:51 PM

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I have no idea there even was a spotting mechanic in wows.

I usually saw every enemy when driving my new mexico
and tried to get in firing range until either me or enemy was dead. :-)

In wot the view range is determined by the turret and modified by crew skills
and equip. it is shown on right side in garage view or in details of tank/module.

 

 

Many shrubberry are not big enough to hide all spotting points of a tank,

so it is important to anticipate enemy positions.

for example bushes with flowers grant no camo at all iirc.

trees do, to some extend.

Be reminded that such cover also impairs your vision.

 

The wiki got some nice picture where spotting and vision points are shown.

The server

draw imaginary rays from the spotting points to enemy vehicle

to determine if enemy is visible or not.

 

 


Edited by Pansenmann, 06 February 2018 - 11:01 PM.


theonlymaverick #13 Posted 01 March 2018 - 11:46 AM

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View Posttheonlymaverick, on 06 February 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

First and foremost I would like to point out three things:

 

1) This is just a honest thread trying to understand why the spotting mechanics seem simply too complicated.

2) I am relatively 'new' to WoT but have been playing WoWs for a couple of years with a few thousand games under my belt.

3) I have watched the spotting mechanics video and they still simply do not make any sense (i.e. based upon a formula that currently means you can have a tank destroyer with a huge gun, spotting and firing at a light tank who has no idea that it is there).

 

Unlike WoWs, the spotting mechanics are not based off gun calibre or height; in WoT they appear to be based off a baked in base view range value (not freely available in game), improved by any modifiers such as commander skills or modules. Surely the bigger the gun, the more gas it produces, the more visible said tank will be? Or the height of the tank makes it stick out like a sore thumb?

 

Actually you're wrong here. In WoT, tanks have 3 different camo values: stationary, moving and after firing the gun (and a combination of these three). Generally speaking, the higher the vehicle, the worse the camo rating (so height does matter) and generally larger calibre guns reduce your camo rating by more when you pull the trigger. So, height and gun caliber do make a difference

 

** Valid points about the height of the tank affecting the camo value, and the reduction in camo rating on firing; however this was partially what I was trying to get at. The amount of camouflage can vary so significantly and is dependent on so many different variables; therefore because you have to calculate the value based upon their camo rating (which you do not have access to), the actual detection values for a specific enemy tank are not freely available to the player.

 

Which brings me onto the second point; because spotting is not based off gun calibre, and their bloom isn't to your max detection range like in WoWs, you end up in a situation where somebody can be shooting at you with a big gun (85mm+) and still remain undetected. Doesn't anyone think that this is simply bizarre?  That you can remain undetected even when you announce your position to the world firing these larger calibre guns, how can you punish that, how does the game allow you to respond? Or at least your team respond, when they remain undetected thanks to the spotting mechanics? I mean no amount of camouflage can hide the gas/flash of a 105mm L7 or a Flak 8.8. 

 

Hide behind a decent enough bush, and you could obscure the smoke from your gun. Seems reasonable to be. Sure, it might not always work and in realityfiring the gun makes it more likely you will be seen IRL, but doesn't guarantee anything. The game tries to replicate this. 

 

**That is fair, cover/bushes should partially obscure the smoke from the gun; however because this is based upon a camo rating (affected by crew skills, equipment etc), how is it right that these factors should change whether you are spotted or not? WoWs for example has a built in fixed penalty for firing from smoke, in WoT it is too variable.

 

The WoWs development team realised that stealth firing was a problem in the game and implemented mechanics that have still roughly kept game balance, while making the game all the more enjoyable. This was based on the fact that if you fire your weapon, there has to be consequences, and subsequently have to make better decisions about when to fire more appropriately. So why hasn't WoT? I mean, WoT has been around a lot longer, and is clearly a good game;  so the question I cannot comprehend the answer to, is why hasn't the development team followed the suit of WoWs and simplified these fundamental mechanics? 

 

Perhaps because in WoWS you are more likely to have large open tracts that people can shoot you in whereas in WoT you are more likely to have some hard cover to use if necessary? Just a thought. 

 

** Nice thought, and you are partially correct, however it isn't too different to many of the more open maps on WoT really. In WoWs there are also many maps that have significant numbers of islands to hind behind :); the spotting is also based upon line of sight, so you don't end up with this scenario where you are spotted for 5/10 seconds when they catch a briefest glimpse of you.

 

Finally, WoWs has a 'detected' marker that gives the player information if they are detected; WoT has the incredibly useful sixth sense skill, however it is essentially stuck behind either a pay wall or a significant number of games in the tank, mainly because it is linked to your commander. Wouldn't it be better to simply build this into the hud? I mean you wouldn't know where the enemy was, but at least you would have a chance to defend yourself or manoeuvre. It doesn't prevent the enemy firing back at you, and doesn't take away the skill of getting a hit on the enemy tank; however it would make the game much less frustrating to play.

Yeah, you're not the first to suggest this and WG have been saying that they wand to overhaul the whole crew skill system for some time. Guess it will happen soonTM

 

** Here is to hoping, I still don't understand why WoT haven't introduced a system where you get to put less equipment on a tank when the tier is lower? It is horrible going into lower tier games ultimately knowing there is someone out there with standard/improved equipment, automatic consumables etc, who can out-spot, out DPM, hide quicker, drive quicker, and get all round boosts that newer players simply do not (and cannot) have. It really does take some of the skill out of the game.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts, they are really interesting.



Simeon85 #14 Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:34 PM

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Camo ratings, view ranges and all the modifiers that impact them are all now in the garage. 

 

Just hover over the camo or view range details and it will show you the camo value and what is boosting it, it will also show 3 values, one for stationary, one for moving and one for firing.

 

Rather than WOT camo being complicated, I'd say WOWs camo is very simple, largely because there is no concealment aside from smoke, whereas WOT bushes and trees provide concealment.

 

There is also firing outside of max spotting range, so pretty much every tank is capable of firing unspotted by doing this and that tank is not going to be spotted unless someone with high view range is getting within 445m of them. 

 

With the camo mechanics it is important to remember some key points -

 

1. View range cancels our camo rating (or vice verse), the higher the view range of a tank, the less effective the camo value of the tank that is being spotted is, so the higher the view range the closer you can spot someone to the maximum spotting range of 445m.

 

2. There is a window between max spotting range (445m) and max render (570 something I think) range where tanks can still fire at tanks but not be spotted, they do this by another friendly tank relaying the enemy tanks position to them, this means that all tanks can fire without being spotted if they are in this range.

 

3. Bushes and concealment add camo, if the bus is not see through and you are at least 15m behind the bussh, then it is very unlikely you will get spotted even when firing, as long as the bush covers all the spotting points on your tank, this is the other way tanks manage to fire without being spotted.

 

4. Camo value is linked to size of the tank generally, but varies between classes, large tanks generally have worse camo, but a large TD will have better camo then a similar sized heavy tank.

 

5. You camo rating will change depending on whether you are moving or firing or both. Light tanks are the only class to have the same camo rating when moving as they do stationary. All tanks lose a lot of camo when they fire, but smaller calibre guns less so, plus old premium TDs like the SU-122-44, E25 and Jagdtiger 88 have a bonus to camo after firing. 

 

5. Equipment, crew skills, comsumables and directives can increase your camo and view range. 



Tom_Deekanarry #15 Posted 01 March 2018 - 12:43 PM

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The bit that makes me laugh is I can see burned out Sherman and Tiger tanks that are map ornaments at 500m yet can't see a players tiger at 451m, the whole spotting thing is a bit mad really!

LordMuffin #16 Posted 01 March 2018 - 01:07 PM

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View Posttheonlymaverick, on 01 March 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

 

Thanks for your thoughts, they are really interesting.

You are making the spotting mechanics more complicated then they are.

 

All tanks are assigned a camouflage values by WG, this value is not calculated in any way, and it is used as a balancing factor.

A general rule is: small tanks have better camo then large tanks.

You can see these values in the garage.

You got 3 different camouflage values.

1: base camo (assigned by WG).

2: camo on the move (which is somewhat following formula, light retain full camo on move, medium have 75% of base camo on the move and heavies have 50% of base camo in the move).

3: camo after shot, which is very very very bad (usually between 5% and 0%).

 

Then we have viewrange.

This number is visible in garage and is a value set by WG for balancing purposes.  No formula involved here.

 

Then we got spotting. 

And this follow a simple rule.

If VR > (1+camo value)×distance you get spotted.

Example.

VR = 400

Camo = 25%

Distance = 200m

 

400 > 1.25×200 since 400 > 250

You are spotted.

 

Example

VR = 400

Camo = 40%

Distance = 300m

400 > 1.4×300 this isn't true since 400 < ~420.

You are not spotted.

 

This is the basic system.

 

Then we add bushes, which all get an assigned value by WG individually, a value you can't find out by looking at the bush.

The bush just add it's value to your tanks camo value

Example.

24% camo bush and 32% camo tank gives 56% camo on the tank.

Then same calculation as before.

 

Then we have the 15m behind bush rule. But it follows same model.

Bush camo + tank value.



Sergeant_Antaro_Chronus #17 Posted 01 March 2018 - 02:15 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 01 March 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

You are making the spotting mechanics more complicated then they are.

 

[..]

Then same calculation as before.

 

Then we have the 15m behind bush rule. But it follows same model.

Bush camo + tank value.

 

Don't we also have to add the "search" interval of the server which looks if the tank we want to spot is within spotting range? WG did reduce it in an older patch but I believe they didn't remove it completely.



Simeon85 #18 Posted 01 March 2018 - 03:16 PM

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View PostSergeant_Antaro_Chronus, on 01 March 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

 

Don't we also have to add the "search" interval of the server which looks if the tank we want to spot is within spotting range? WG did reduce it in an older patch but I believe they didn't remove it completely.

 

Spotting tick rate is so quick now that I don't think it would play any difference to whether a tank does or does not get spotted, tanks just aren't fast enough. It used to be that tanks would be able to pass between gaps of cover without getting spotted because of that, but since the changes it is not possible.

 

For example on El Halluf, the tanks crossing to the very north brawling point, who usually get shot in the side, before they made that change fast tanks wouldn't actually get spotted until they had safely crossed, now they will get spotted basically immediately. 



theonlymaverick #19 Posted 01 March 2018 - 03:35 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 01 March 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

You are making the spotting mechanics more complicated then they are.

 

All tanks are assigned a camouflage values by WG, this value is not calculated in any way, and it is used as a balancing factor.

 

Then we have viewrange.

This number is visible in garage and is a value set by WG for balancing purposes.  No formula involved here.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate your comments it is good to get these kind of discussions, but I am not trying to make this sound more complicated, it is just pointlessly complicated.

 

The following excerpt is taken from the WoT battle mechanics wiki; according to the WoT wiki, the camoFactor is used to determine spotting, combined with the base view range; the higher the camoFactor the lower the spotting range will be (and yes this is calculated). So while I appreciate you will know what your own camo-factor is, and yes you can see it in the GUI; you have no idea about the camo rating of anyone else. Hence as an example, you can have two identical tanks with identical equipment, but the slightest of differences in commander skill levels; and one will outspot the other every time; do you think that skill has an impact on an individuals ability to see clearly :) ?

 

 

CamouflageEdit

One factor when calculating spotting range is the camouflage factor of the vehicle to be spotted. The higher the target's camouflage factor, the shorter the spotting range.

Calculating the Camouflage FactorEdit

The camouflage factor is calculated as follows:

camoFactor = baseCamo * (0.00375 * camoSkill + 0.5) * camoAtShot + camoPattern + camoNet + environmentCamo


Edited by theonlymaverick, 01 March 2018 - 03:39 PM.


IncandescentGerbil #20 Posted 01 March 2018 - 03:51 PM

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It's all artificial. The idea of any WW2 tank spotting and instantly grid referencing moving vehicles for its allies in real time is daft, just as it's daft to imagine Type 5s suddenly become invisible ar 446m. But it seems the least of the game's problems so no point worrying about it.




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