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Object 257: not overpowered, just new (and how to deal with it)


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DaSpood #1 Posted 08 February 2018 - 02:54 AM

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Here I'll show you a replay of a monster game in the Object257 where everything would hint towards it being completely broken, and I will tell you why it's not and why this whole game was only possible because of ennemies who were both stupid and inexperinced against this tank.

 

(Edit: I don't see the replay, so here's a mediafire link to download it. I sent an email to wotreplay to see why I couldnt upload it there. http://www.mediafire...undra.wotreplay )

(see attached files for the replay, I advise watching it before reading further, and maybe slowing down and watching it twice (player view and third person view) for the 1vs5 part at the end. The important part starts at 8:40)

 

__________

 

 

So, I'll assume you'll have watched the replay before reading further, and I'll explain why the game ended like that and why it is a case of "bad ennemies, good driver" rather than "OP tank".

 

-For the entire game, my way of playing has been "show your sides and only your sides at all times, don't angle, don't try to hide, just show your entire flat sides to the ennemy". Why ? Because with the V-shaped hull, side armor is better than front armor. I am sure most of you have guessed it, but I think it's important to go further than just "OP side armor plz nerf". While the side armor is strong, it is not immune to damages, and it's important to know your ennemies. In this scenario:

 *I know none of the ennemies have 15cm+ calibers, so they cannot overmatch me

 *I know none of the ennemy has a high penetration, thus they cannot pen the part above the tracks (effective 200mm, and with the stress of the action and wiggling, it will often go higher than that).

*I know the tank is brand new and people likely do not know where to shoot it. If I show them my sides, they will instinctively think "sides = weak, let's shot right in the middle", and they end up hitting the angled part or the spaced armor, and they never try to aim elsewhere

 

-At 8:37, right after I kill the WZ, the EmilII is coming straight at me. I am able to keep my sides exposed for two of his shots, however he managed to circle me and put one in my back, which penned. But then he kept circling and went back to the other side, aka back to the strong part of the armor. He then did the best thing he could do: facehugging me so I couldn't hit his hull and thus making me unable to kill him. I am able to kill the T-34-3 as he comes around the corner though.

 

-At 7:50, the ennemy 257 comes in. I am able to snap a shot and damage him, but I have to quickly react to keep my sides exposed to both of them and not let any of them reach my rear or even my front. Which I manage to do, and the Emil tries to run away, which does not work obviously, because by doing so I am finaly able to hit his hull. If he had just waited in the facehug until his clip was reloaded, he could have tried unloading into my front armor or my turret.

In that time, the IS-2 managed to get a shot at me and put me on less than 70hp. Considering all ennemies here have 122mm caliber guns and my armor is 130mm at the most, any HE shell hitting me anywhere but the gun/tracks will kill me.

 

-Until 7:17, they are trying to circle me. The IS did the right thing and went for my back, unfortunately for him he managed to bounce. I am not sure if he hit the turret because of low depression angle, or the side armor, but he did not hit the back of my tank and thus he didn't kill me. Mistake made in the rush, if he had taken slightly longer to check where he was aiming at, he would have killed me. In the mean time the ennemy 257 kept trying to get me from the sides.

 

-Until 6:30 it's a 1v1 between two objects257. One of which is now at 51hp. The differences in gameplay were significant: I was trying to expose nothing but my sides, sometimes with a bit of angle to let a weaker part appear. Him on the other hand didn't try to show a flat side and tried to angle his front instead, but I had a clzar shot at his lowerplate the whole time. And in the end he just gave up and tried to show a straight frontal hull to me, expecting me to bounce maybe, but at that point I loaded HEAT which would not bounce his flat LFP.

 

-I did not mention it until now, but notice how one of my last regular rounds went straight into his turret roof, without even aiming that well. None of the ennemies tried to hit me there during the whole fight, but it can be overmatched by 91mm guns and above. Cupolas, although pretty small, were also only 150mm thick. And finaly, I stayed alive against 1 or 2 tanks with high caliber guns for over a minute with less than 70hp, and not a single one of them decided to switch to HE.

 

__________

 

 

So yeah, the tank does have strong side armor. Very strong. And people are not used to that, they are used to front armor being the thickest.

Actualy it's not true: the IS-4 also has pretty strong side armor, while the front is pretty bad even when angled. And the exact same thing happens with the IS-4: the driver will overangle to make the ennemies want to shoot the strong side armor instead of the weak front or the turret weakspot. And people who are not used to facing this tank will fall for it.

Yet the IS-4 is not OP. Yes, the IS-4 can be penned in the sides at a flat angle, but so can be the 257 if people aim at the part above the tracks and spaced armor, and not just at the center of mass. It's just about aiming at actual weakspots of a specific tank, instead of aiming at general areas that are usualy weak on most tanks. You can't have one way to fight tanks and expect it to work against everything. If it was like that, the game would be boring. Some tanks have rather unique designs and require different tactics to take down.

 

The 257 has a lot of weakspots:

-the upper side armor has around 200mm effective armor on flat terrain. If you are just a bit taller it already goes down to 170mm. And eventualy reaches 130mm.

-the lower side armor can be overmatched by 150mm+ calibers. And if you manage to get below the tank, it's only 45mm thick, all it takes to pen it to not be at the autobounce angle. Basicaly if you are not at the exact same ground level as the Obj257 you have an advantage over a part of its side armor

-the turret weakspot can be overmatched by 91mm+ calibers

-the cupolas cannot be hidden, and they are 150mm thick. Although small, they are not impossible to hit at close range, and at long range bot hthe front and sides of the tank become weaker

-the LFP is rather flat with a 220mm effective amor, and to make the LFP stronger you have to angle and then the UFP becomes weak, down to 220mm as well. Which means you can pen the tank frontally with 220mm+ pen, unless it is facing you straight on and hiding the LFP (but then turret weakspots are not hidden). And Most tier 7+ tanks have at least that pen with their gold ammo.

 

It is going to be a powerful tank for a few weeks, until people learn what the weakspots are, and most importantly learn to not try to fire at the sides of the tank unless they have more than 200mm pen and aim above the spaced armor. Once people have learned that, this tank will behave like a tier 9 IS-3 with basicaly the same weakspots, except stronger sides.

 

Remember how the AMX M4 49 was considered OP when it came out because of it's insane front armor, but then people learned the weakspots and now the tank is just average and it cannot even tank damages that well from the front. Here it's the same, but instead of frontal armor, it's side armor that confuses people. It won't last. All it takes is players not being noobs and learning to aim, and at this tier if people are unable to learn to fight this thing after meeting it a few times, then they deserve to be bullied by it until they make the effort to learn. That's called natural selection.

 

So before spamming the forums about how OP the tank is, and sending tickets to support because you couldnt autopen it with gold or do your usual tactics with it, just accept the fact that this is a new design that requires new ways to counter it, and that all you need is a bit of re-learning to do. Give it a few weeks and once most people figured that out, it will be a well balanced tier IX that is just overpowered against lazyness and bots, which is not a bad thing if you ask me.

Practice in training rooms, and whenever you meet it in battle, just remember everytime he tries to aim at you, he exposes the turret roof which you will almost always be able to overmatch, and the tank has a nasty aim time, which means time to aim fire and retreat before he does.

 

Hopefuly this helped you understand how this tank works, and see how to fight it. Stop saying it's OP just because you didnt kill it first try, it has been out for a day only, it has a completely new design, and is a replacement on a popular branch which means lots of people will drive it to test it in the first few days. Things will settle down like they always do, and if the tank is truly that overpowered, WG will end up seing it.

And hopefuly this thread will not get flooded by angry people who refuse to even read it and have decided that the 257 is OP, so they will not accept the opposite, even with evidences.


Edited by DaSpood, 08 February 2018 - 02:57 AM.


Strizi #2 Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:21 AM

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When you have to write that much to justify this tank maybe its a bit too strong :trollface::bajan: But people should really complain more about 268 4, its the biggest offender so far.

DaSpood #3 Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:27 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 08 February 2018 - 03:21 AM, said:

When you have to write that much to justify this tank maybe its a bit too strong :trollface::bajan: But people should really complain more about 268 4, its the biggest offender so far.

 

Considering the amount of negativity this tank has been receiving from people, I was thinking I better come with more than just "257 is not OP because you're just noobs" in order to have some credibility ^^'

I may be repeating myself a bit however, but I think it was important to make comparisons with existing tanks, point out all the weakspots, and show a "monster replay" that people will often use to show how broken the tank is, and instead explain all the mistakes the ennemies did to allow this result. Because I'm sure we're going to see quite a few of these replays in the next few days, including from youtubers who just look at how good the player is playing and not at all the tiny yet important mistakes the ennemies make.



Search_Warrant #4 Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:28 AM

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Shoot the dam pike side on.. dips a pixel low and hits autobounce plate. eats shell. so much fun...

NUKLEAR_SLUG #5 Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:36 AM

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View PostDaSpood, on 08 February 2018 - 03:27 AM, said:

 

Considering the amount of negativity this tank has been receiving from people, I was thinking I better come with more than just "257 is not OP because you're just noobs" in order to have some credibility ^^'

I may be repeating myself a bit however, but I think it was important to make comparisons with existing tanks, point out all the weakspots, and show a "monster replay" that people will often use to show how broken the tank is, and instead explain all the mistakes the ennemies did to allow this result. Because I'm sure we're going to see quite a few of these replays in the next few days, including from youtubers who just look at how good the player is playing and not at all the tiny yet important mistakes the ennemies make.

 

Thanks for the effort but people really don't want to hear it's not OP,  they just want to go through their usual process of whining about the new thing thing which is "broken" because they don't know how to deal with it. It happens with every content patch. 



DaSpood #6 Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:37 AM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 08 February 2018 - 03:28 AM, said:

Shoot the dam pike side on.. dips a pixel low and hits autobounce plate. eats shell. so much fun...

 

The pike sides are about as strong from the flat side as they are from the flat front, that's obvious when you look at the angle they have. If you hit them in diagonal however, they can be as low as 220mm, at ground level. And it you are above the tank, they'll be even weaker. 

It'll be the same with other big pike noses.



DeLawrence #7 Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:45 AM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 08 February 2018 - 04:28 AM, said:

Shoot the dam pike side on.. dips a pixel low and hits autobounce plate. eats shell. so much fun...

That applies to any tank...M103s, T110Es(3,4,5) LFP? A pixel upwards and you're now hitting 70 degrees angled armor. Just an example.



Hiisi #8 Posted 08 February 2018 - 05:15 AM

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Its just stupid. It might not be that op, but the model is broken... The model needs to be changed. And really does this shitty model fit better in is-7 line than t-10. Well the answer is simple it does not. T-10 fit better than this.

ignaskarate #9 Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:05 AM

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View PostDaSpood, on 08 February 2018 

The 257 has a lot of weakspots:

not try to fire at the sides of the tank unless they have more than 200mm pen and aim above the spaced armor

not true, panther2 is tall, i shot apcr 263 pen on 257 side just above the tracks, like u said- no penetration. Looked at tank model in tanks gg, aproximately from my angle of view it showed 319 efective armour above the track. the bigger tank, the more armour u have to fight, smaller in heigt tanks see less than 220 armour



vixu #10 Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:17 AM

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its far from OP. Had a game where I had no trouble dealing with couple of 257s witha  at the same time on french t9 amx 54 whatever heavy with a very few bounces of my shots and lots of blocked damage on myself. My aim is bad and I dont use prem ammo. My guess is that one has to know how to drive 257 for it to shine. 

Trostani #11 Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:23 AM

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In first game yesterday where I met 257 braindead amoeba with 45% WR and similar WN8 as a top tank deals nearly 6k damage. This tank is more broken on IX tier than Defender on VIII, soon it will be visible on vbaddict charts.

ZlatanArKung #12 Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:33 AM

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View Postvixu, on 08 February 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

its far from OP. Had a game where I had no trouble dealing with couple of 257s witha  at the same time on french t9 amx 54 whatever heavy with a very few bounces of my shots and lots of blocked damage on myself. My aim is bad and I dont use prem ammo. My guess is that one has to know how to drive 257 for it to shine. 

Because the T9 AMX 54 is such a balanced tank, right?

No frontal weakspots,  no chance of penning unless you push the 2 key.



Sfinski #13 Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:42 AM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 08 February 2018 - 08:33 AM, said:

Because the T9 AMX 54 is such a balanced tank, right?

No frontal weakspots,  no chance of penning unless you push the 2 key.

 

Shoulders and cupola? Easy to pen weakspots. 

vixu #14 Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:43 AM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 08 February 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

Because the T9 AMX 54 is such a balanced tank, right?

No frontal weakspots,  no chance of penning unless you push the 2 key.

 

its like no one presses 2 key.

 

Anyways, the fact is that I dealt with 257s w/o going magic on a tank on which I have the worst w/r out of all my tanks tells me that there 257 is not that op. 

 



ZlatanArKung #15 Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:03 AM

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View PostSfinski, on 08 February 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

 

Shoulders and cupola? Easy to pen weakspots. 

Shoulders that have 320mm of armour from the front, and only becomes weakspots if angled.

A slight angle gave them 280mm.

 

The cupolas are small, but can be called weakspots.

But if you play a low profile tank, these will not be visible in a close range engagement, or if the AMX is above you.



Sfinski #16 Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:08 AM

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I dunno what you call slight angle but for me slight gave 200-230mm effective on the shoulders.

T_H_F #17 Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:11 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 08 February 2018 - 03:21 AM, said:

When you have to write that much to justify this tank maybe its a bit too strong :trollface::bajan: But people should really complain more about 268 4, its the biggest offender so far.

 

Just do like most IS7 i meet, use the 2 key and they pen all shots except a very few bounce... BTW, i mostly run T8,,, why do 98% of all IS7 use APCR?

I meet a lot of tanks, but no one use APCR nearly as much as IS7 does?



Cobra6 #18 Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:53 AM

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If you can't reliably track+damage a tank in the side from a 90 degree angle, it's not balanced.

 

And lets not forget that when angle to sidescrape the front shoulder is ~240/250+ effective armour, this is more armour than most guns from tier 9 and below have standard penetration, so even on the weakspot you need to load gold to reliably pen.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 08 February 2018 - 08:57 AM.


ZlatanArKung #19 Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:56 AM

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View PostSfinski, on 08 February 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

I dunno what you call slight angle but for me slight gave 200-230mm effective on the shoulders.

Then you overangle as a player.

You can get a nice 260mm all over the front with correct angling.

 



ZlatanArKung #20 Posted 08 February 2018 - 09:00 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 08 February 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

If you can't reliably track+damage a tank in the side from a 90 degree angle, it's not balanced.

 

Cobra 6

You only need a 136mm+ calibre gun and you can, I hope.

 

Anyway, the tank is stupid and should get removed. It is an abomination, a nd I don't understand how players can defend it or accept it's presence.

 

But as long as people do, WG can add whatever tank they want with whatever ridiculous stats they like.

Incoming Defender 2, just like a Defender,  but with 50% more all round armour. Balanced indeed, you just need to find its weakspots.






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