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Why HE has sometimes such low damage vs open-roofs?


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Squirting_Elephant #1 Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:35 AM

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I hit a Skorp G in the turret and only 100 damage. I hit a Strv1 on the roof (only 30mm armor) with a 128mm cannon and a HE shell and only 200 damage instead of like 800ish? No over-matching mechanics apply to HE? Are their modules sucking up all the damage or something? Even hitting a point close to the open-area sometimes causes almost no damage.

 

I read the wiki but it doesn't really explain this. Also it seems that HE is very rarely worth using even vs open-roof tanks. Because you always risk somehow doing pretty much 0 damage while with an APCR/AP shell you would likely do damage, albeit a bit less.

 

I also wonder when shooting with a big DERP like the Type4 heavy with premium and I hit some super fragile super tiny scout in the side, I only do track-damage? Does it calculate damage in a straight line and then it only finds tracks and void? Is it not radial? Although radial would be more realistic, it could be too OP as it would then almost always find a weakspot.


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 12 February 2018 - 10:36 AM.


Red_Dragon_Firkraag #2 Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:37 AM

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HE neither overmatches nor normalizes.

iztok #3 Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:44 AM

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Hi!

You've likely hit a part of the tank the shell couldn't pen (gun, edge of the side armor...), so the detonation mechanics occurred. There detonation covers only a hemisphere perpendicular to the point shell has hit. BTW tracers and shell trajectories aren't accurate, so you can't really see accurately, where you've hit.

 

BR,  Iztok

 


Edited by iztok, 12 February 2018 - 10:49 AM.


Homer_J #4 Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:46 AM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 12 February 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

 No over-matching mechanics apply to HE? 

No overmatch.

 

If you don't pen you immediately half damage.

 

If you hit a gun or tracks then you can do no damage quite easily as the splash radius on tank HE is so small.

 

Hitting an observation device can cause your HE to explode externally since it will never penetrate two layers of armour even if it has enough pen.

 

STRV S1 has troll spaced armour either side over the tracks.  The hull is only in the section between the tracks.


Edited by Homer_J, 12 February 2018 - 10:54 AM.


DracheimFlug #5 Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:18 AM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 12 February 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

I hit a Skorp G in the turret and only 100 damage. I hit a Strv1 on the roof (only 30mm armor) with a 128mm cannon and a HE shell and only 200 damage instead of like 800ish? No over-matching mechanics apply to HE? Are their modules sucking up all the damage or something? Even hitting a point close to the open-area sometimes causes almost no damage.

 

I read the wiki but it doesn't really explain this. Also it seems that HE is very rarely worth using even vs open-roof tanks. Because you always risk somehow doing pretty much 0 damage while with an APCR/AP shell you would likely do damage, albeit a bit less.

 

I also wonder when shooting with a big DERP like the Type4 heavy with premium and I hit some super fragile super tiny scout in the side, I only do track-damage? Does it calculate damage in a straight line and then it only finds tracks and void? Is it not radial? Although radial would be more realistic, it could be too OP as it would then almost always find a weakspot.

 

For the Strv, it is not open top and the explosion likely mostly washed over the top. 

Homer_J #6 Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:42 AM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 12 February 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

 

the explosion likely mostly washed over the top. 

That's not a known game mechanic.

 

If the HE explodes it sends rays out to find the weakest armour with LOS.

 

Most likely we need a replay to avoid guesswork.



DracheimFlug #7 Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:43 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 12 February 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

That's not a known game mechanic.

 

If the HE explodes it sends rays out to find the weakest armour with LOS.

 

Most likely we need a replay to avoid guesswork.

 

It did do 200 (splash) damage. 

Ze_HOFF_fverhoef #8 Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:45 AM

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Shooting HE with a high caliber is like a lottery with some good odds.

 

Shooting HE with a low caliber is like a lottery that stinks.

 

That's all you need to know about shooting HE...



Squirting_Elephant #9 Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:30 PM

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View PostRed_Dragon_Firkraag, on 12 February 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

HE neither overmatches nor normalizes.

Oh okay. Thanks learned something new again.

 

View PostHomer_J, on 12 February 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

If you don't pen you immediately half damage.

Ouchies. That explains a lot. I always assumed that the armor would just reduce the damage dealt so a 30mm armor plate would mean that a HE shell should do nearly full damage. But this explains a lot. Thanks.

 

 

View PostHomer_J, on 12 February 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

Hitting an observation device can cause your HE to explode externally since it will never penetrate two layers of armour even if it has enough pen.

Mmm that HE radius should really be bigger imo. But okay that again explains some weird stuff I encountered.

 

As for the STRV1, I assume I unlucky hit the spaced sides of the roof + lowest possible damage roll and thus no pen as that equals about 230 damage. That makes a lot of sense. https://tanks.gg/tan...ion-g&cl=000002

But wow that side-spaced armor lol. Imagine a 1750 damage DERP going 'poof' inside that... That would be the day. But it seems you can also hit it's spaced armor on top and if you hit that spaced armor with AP/APCR from above you even do 0 damage... Wow I didn't know that the STRV1 was THAT troll.

 

But I wonder how to shoot a STRV1 with HE from the side then? I can't shoot it's spaced armor. So I should aim lower right? But the tracks... they can also cause it to detonate prematurely. Basically, never shoot it with HE from the side unless you really have too or unless you can shoot the roof?

 

I just wish the STRV1 was more viable in close combat city maps because every time I play the STRV1 myself, I am just so useless in those maps. This game... So complex even after all those years... And that STRV1 has some seriously unique gameplay for sure.



Squirting_Elephant #10 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:14 PM

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Mmm there must be more to the damage reduction of a HE shell. Whether if pens or not, I think the armor and possibly if a modules soaks it up. Because I just did a 27 damage shot on a tank that had only 29 hp (Lowe vs Lowe) and because of that I died... No more HE for me... So extremely unreliable imo.

Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 12 February 2018 - 01:15 PM.


Balc0ra #11 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:24 PM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 12 February 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

I hit a Skorp G in the turret and only 100 damage.

 

If you low HE roll on a Skorp G turret. You most likely hit the gun. As most HE shells from none derp guns etc don't have much splash radius. So when you hit modules like the gun, not much armor will hit the 45 degree cone it will make when it impacts etc. Same if you hit the gun on the inside of the turret from behind. 

 

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 12 February 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

Mmm there must be more to the damage reduction of a HE shell. Whether if pens or not, I think the armor and possibly if a modules soaks it up. Because I just did a 27 damage shot on a tank that had only 29 hp (Lowe vs Lowe) and because of that I died... No more HE for me... So extremely unreliable imo.

 

HE can do zero damage if the armor is thick enough. As it can only dig that far down before the armor nullifies it. Lowe HE has 60 pen iirc. And if you hit the mantle, that also is spaced. It's not gonna do much.

Squirting_Elephant #12 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:48 PM

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Mmm yeah Lowe has terrible HE damage & pen. But he had only 29 hp and I fully aimed on lower plate so I figured it would be a sure kill. But I see... I messed up. HE seems to have really limited uses. The only reliable uses it had so far for me was spamming it on a side-scrapping tank on it's side (tracks) and keep it permanently tracked until it died. But even against open roofs and really low armored tanks I think I prefer AP/APCR. HE for non-DERP-guns is really terrible in virtually all cases it seems (mostly because it feel unreliable).

 

Also shooting HE on an opening like a viewport doesn't count as an "opening". But this makes sense I guess for balance reasons.


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 12 February 2018 - 01:50 PM.


Strappster #13 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:51 PM

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View PostZe_HOFF_fverhoef, on 12 February 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

Shooting HE with a high caliber is like a lottery with some good odds.

 

Shooting HE with a low caliber is like a lottery that stinks.

 

That's all you need to know about shooting HE...

 

I beg to differ. I carry 20 rounds of HE for the pom-pom gun on my Vickers Mk. E Type B because it's funny. :great:

Ze_HOFF_fverhoef #14 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:54 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 12 February 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

 

I beg to differ. I carry 20 rounds of HE for the pom-pom gun on my Vickers Mk. E Type B because it's funny. :great:

 

And beg to differ you're allowed to :girl: <-- Pamela

Dru_UK #15 Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:02 PM

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what is HE?

Kooallu #16 Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:03 PM

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s9vlmJG.jpg

 

when you play ruski tanks only shoot HE, because you dont need to think about enemy tank armor values.

i penetrated 121 turret frontally with HE

 



Homer_J #17 Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:09 PM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 12 February 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

Mmm there must be more to the damage reduction of a HE shell. Whether if pens or not, I think the armor and possibly if a modules soaks it up. 

If it doesn't pen then you start with half which is reduced by the distance to the hull armour and any spaced armour it has to pass through and then reduced by each mm of hull armour.

 

Equation_explosion-damage.png

http://wiki.wargamin...anics#HE_Shells



Balc0ra #18 Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:20 PM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 12 February 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

Mmm yeah Lowe has terrible HE damage & pen. But he had only 29 hp and I fully aimed on lower plate so I figured it would be a sure kill.

 

Depends. Lower plate is about 150mm from your gun height flat on. But if your dispersion went high or low. It can go above 250 or even 350mm if you hit along the lower part of it. So then HE would really not do much. Then again if you did have his lower plate. Why not AP that would more or less be a sure pen?

 

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 12 February 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

The only reliable uses it had so far for me was spamming it on a side-scrapping tank on it's side (tracks) and keep it permanently tracked until it died.

 

If you see the front or rear wheels. AP will do just fine to. As tracks take 100% module damage.



Squirting_Elephant #19 Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:12 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 12 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Then again if you did have his lower plate. Why not AP that would more or less be a sure pen?

I was trying to find a reliable use for HE shells. I assumed that they might be useful for killing off low hp targets (since they can't bounce). But I was so wrong... Yes you are right I should have used AP there and I would have survived (or APCR to be 100% sure).

 

View PostBalc0ra, on 12 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

If you see the front or rear wheels. AP will do just fine to. As tracks take 100% module damage.

Yes but with HE you also damage the tank itself AND de-track it while AP can (vs a proper sidescrapped-tank) only de-track it but not damage it. Meaning that as long as you fire faster than he can repair and as long as you have enough shells, you can kill a side-scrapper without him being able to do anything back/about it. So if you can only see his behind-wheel and his side-track but not his front-wheel and his angle is so steep that you can't pen it with ap/apcr, then you could (if you reload fast enough and have enough shells) kill him completely there. But that's really the only reliable use so far that I could find for HE. APCR is simply more reliable than HE most of the time.

 

Someone did it do me once when I was in a Jap heavy. Some tiny bottom-tier scout de-tracked me around the corner and kept spamming HE on my tracks until I died while me team sat behind me and let me die even though the scout was all alone... You can often perma track and splash enemies to death on lower tiers. But on tiers 8-10, not so much.


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 12 February 2018 - 06:13 PM.


Strappster #20 Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:25 PM

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View PostDru_UK, on 12 February 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

what is HE?

 

The Flying Spaghetti Monster, may you be touched by HIS noodly appendage.

 

RAmen.






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