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an idea for a "fair" matchmaking


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AnimalAsLeader #1 Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:53 PM

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While it is pretty unreasonable to hope a mod will read this, I thought I'm gonna share this thought with the community.

 

The idea about matchmaker changes is not crying about "Im always lowtier", but revolves around the premise that you should not get into a team where you only serve the purpose of being some statpadder's free damage.

And it's plain simple: Give every tank a unique matchmaking based solely on it's standard round penetration (because not everyone wants to spam gold), so that a tank can only see tanks that it can penetrate. Not frontally, but in the side, rear, or weakspots. For that you could use the data collected from battles to see which guns are moslty used on what tank, and obviously this would not apply for HE-based tanks. It would not be a big change in terms of what a player will see, just one or two tanks that you won't see in your games.

 

Now, why do I think that this is a good idea?

Simply, because I want to be able to do something, even when I am bottom tier in a tank with shitty penetration. I want to at least have the possibility to carry - or help the team. If I am in an endgame scenario where I am only facing tanks that I can't pen, then I can just drown myself. Is that the way to play? You would see so much less suicide in your games if people believed they can achieve something. Wouldn't that be better for the game?

 

How would this work?

Every tank would have a list of possible enemies (not allies) it can encounter, and the matchmaker would check the lists to assemble teams accordingly. The lists would not even be that big, about 40-60 tanks max. Obviously they would have to be updated with the addition of new vehicles, but once created, they would be viable for the whole patch. The matchmaker would start from the bottom tiers and fill the teams according to the scheme (3-5-7, 5-10, 15). The last scheme is trivial, the other two would be a bit more complicated but still doable.

 

Other ideas:

Limit the number of TDs. That'S pretty obvious. There should never be more than 3 TDs per team, and never more than one with immense alpha (FV 4005, JagE100, FV 183).

 

Limit the number of light tanks on small and city maps. Its just no point in having scouts on a map where everyone can see everything. And let's be honest, light tanks are not good at brawling. I can see mediums being on a city map, although even this is borderline retarded, but lights in a streetfight with heavies and TDs? Here's a fact: Tanks aren't even designed to fight in cities in the first place. Historically, this is what infantry was for.



RamRaid90 #2 Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:56 PM

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Every tank can penetrate every tank it can currently meet in the sides and especially in the rear...not really sure what you're trying to achieve here...



enu_ #3 Posted 13 February 2018 - 10:37 PM

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i think it's to much limits for a "fair" matchmaking

RamRaid90 #4 Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:17 PM

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View Postenu_, on 13 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

i think it's to much limits for a "fair" matchmaking

 

I don't know so much...if you havea Kv-5 you'll probably love it...all that armour with only 167 standard pen:P

Balc0ra #5 Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:31 PM

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View PostAnimalAsLeader, on 13 February 2018 - 09:53 PM, said:

The lists would not even be that big, about 40-60 tanks max.

 

So basically... 90 to 100% of the tanks you can face +1/2 from most tanks. Even in my IS-6 there are 5 tanks I really don't care to face head on at the most. And if they have all of them on a equal tier game. I will go the medium line. No point going the HT line if you can't pen anything even with gold head on. But flank fire still works on all of them if need be and if the opportunity comes. You are just useless from one angle with a "bad" gun. Usually not all of them.

 

And if you have to face them on a 1 on 1 late game. Do you seek them out, or let them find you? As if you can't pen them head on, you should force them to come to a place you might have a spotting advantage etc. Not go to the one part of the map you can't deal with then, the corridors. And if you still can't pen their side or ran out of ammo? Well just bait them near your base, leave and go to their cap. As I had a Type 4 with a dead driver in a 1 on 1 today in my T71. But I was out of ammo. So I force him to come to me, left and went for their cap. No way he would get back in time.

 

 



evilchaosmonkey #6 Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:32 PM

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Is the OP British by any chance? 

Asking because he seems to like queuing and being the underdog through even more miss matched skill games due to the smaller team pools.

 

At least the idea is new, so kudos for that.

 



Jigabachi #7 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:52 AM

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There are only a few tanks that you can't pen in the side or rear when you are a bottomtier with a weak gun, so I really don't get the point of that idea.

Homer_J #8 Posted 14 February 2018 - 11:06 AM

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View PostAnimalAsLeader, on 13 February 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

While it is pretty unreasonable to hope a mod will read this, 

I'm not sure what good having a mod read it will be except to have it closed and junked because it belongs in the pinned mm thread but there is a button to the bottom left of your post which will bring it to their attention if that's what you want.



Shivva #9 Posted 14 February 2018 - 01:09 PM

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View PostAnimalAsLeader, on 13 February 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

While it is pretty unreasonable to hope a mod will read this, I thought I'm gonna share this thought with the community.

 

The idea about matchmaker changes is not crying about "Im always lowtier", but revolves around the premise that you should not get into a team where you only serve the purpose of being some statpadder's free damage.

And it's plain simple: Give every tank a unique matchmaking based solely on it's standard round penetration (because not everyone wants to spam gold), so that a tank can only see tanks that it can penetrate. Not frontally, but in the side, rear, or weakspots. For that you could use the data collected from battles to see which guns are moslty used on what tank, and obviously this would not apply for HE-based tanks. It would not be a big change in terms of what a player will see, just one or two tanks that you won't see in your games.

 

Now, why do I think that this is a good idea?

Simply, because I want to be able to do something, even when I am bottom tier in a tank with shitty penetration. I want to at least have the possibility to carry - or help the team. If I am in an endgame scenario where I am only facing tanks that I can't pen, then I can just drown myself. Is that the way to play? You would see so much less suicide in your games if people believed they can achieve something. Wouldn't that be better for the game?

 

How would this work?

Every tank would have a list of possible enemies (not allies) it can encounter, and the matchmaker would check the lists to assemble teams accordingly. The lists would not even be that big, about 40-60 tanks max. Obviously they would have to be updated with the addition of new vehicles, but once created, they would be viable for the whole patch. The matchmaker would start from the bottom tiers and fill the teams according to the scheme (3-5-7, 5-10, 15). The last scheme is trivial, the other two would be a bit more complicated but still doable.

 

Other ideas:

Limit the number of TDs. That'S pretty obvious. There should never be more than 3 TDs per team, and never more than one with immense alpha (FV 4005, JagE100, FV 183).

 

Limit the number of light tanks on small and city maps. Its just no point in having scouts on a map where everyone can see everything. And let's be honest, light tanks are not good at brawling. I can see mediums being on a city map, although even this is borderline retarded, but lights in a streetfight with heavies and TDs? Here's a fact: Tanks aren't even designed to fight in cities in the first place. Historically, this is what infantry was for.

 

tl:dr - fail-reroll complaining about getting killed by statpadders...

 

you just can't make crap like this up lol.



Ze_HOFF_fverhoef #10 Posted 14 February 2018 - 01:39 PM

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Tanks like the IS-6, KV-220, or any other tank with very good armour and a relatively bad gub gun (when do I learn to type :facepalm:), would cause an immense problem with your MM.

Many tanks would drop because the tank cannot penetrate other tanks frontally (I assume you mean frontally, as otherwise the current MM is already implementing your idea).

On the other hand , other lower tier tanks will be excluded as they cannot pen these special tankz.

 

Good well thought idea, OP :medal::P


Edited by Ze_HOFF_fverhoef, 14 February 2018 - 01:40 PM.


AnimalAsLeader #11 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:33 PM

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So, let's try to answer you guys:

View PostRamRaid90, on 13 February 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

Every tank can penetrate every tank it can currently meet in the sides and especially in the rear...not really sure what you're trying to achieve here...

 

This is simply not true. The T-43 cannot penetrate the Type 4 heavy nor the ST-I with standard rounds. Just one example. Theres plenty of tier6 tanks that can't pen the VK 100.01

View PostBalc0ra, on 13 February 2018 - 11:31 PM, said:

 

 

So basically... 90 to 100% of the tanks you can face +1/2 from most tanks. Even in my IS-6 there are 5 tanks I really don't care to face head on at the most. And if they have all of them on a equal tier game. I will go the medium line. No point going the HT line if you can't pen anything even with gold head on. But flank fire still works on all of them if need be and if the opportunity comes. You are just useless from one angle with a "bad" gun. Usually not all of them.

 

And if you have to face them on a 1 on 1 late game. Do you seek them out, or let them find you? As if you can't pen them head on, you should force them to come to a place you might have a spotting advantage etc. Not go to the one part of the map you can't deal with then, the corridors. And if you still can't pen their side or ran out of ammo? Well just bait them near your base, leave and go to their cap. As I had a Type 4 with a dead driver in a 1 on 1 today in my T71. But I was out of ammo. So I force him to come to me, left and went for their cap. No way he would get back in time.

 

 

 

Let's go over your points: So, if I have a crappen tank, I should not fight the heavies. That is true, and I agree with you, if we completely disregard the bad map design that forces you to fight people head on on most (but not all) maps. I won't go into much detail as I made a thread about maps so I don't really want to repeat myself.

So, yes, you would have a valid point, were it not for the shitty maps that we often fight on.

View Postevilchaosmonkey, on 13 February 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

Is the OP British by any chance? 

Asking because he seems to like queuing and being the underdog through even more miss matched skill games due to the smaller team pools.

 

At least the idea is new, so kudos for that.

 

 

xD. No, I'm not british, and yes, I enjoy the challenge of being an underdog and carrying my team with a bottom tier tank. It's much more fun than "press w and laugh at people while they bounce all day". Although this style also has its merits.

View PostJigabachi, on 14 February 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

There are only a few tanks that you can't pen in the side or rear when you are a bottomtier with a weak gun, so I really don't get the point of that idea.

 

Exactly, which is why the difference would be marginal. But these games happen, and it's just frustrating to know you lost because there was no chance in hell you're gonna kill that last enemy.

View PostShivva, on 14 February 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

 

tl:dr - fail-reroll complaining about getting killed by statpadders...

 

you just can't make crap like this up lol.

 

I'm not really sure how you want to back up your assumption. I'm registered for 2 years and I have the amount of battles I have, because I like spending my time otherwise than sitting in fron of my PC and destroying digital tanks all day. I'm not even gonna comment on this idiotic thought.

 

View PostZe_HOFF_fverhoef, on 14 February 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

Tanks like the IS-6, KV-220, or any other tank with very good armour and a relatively bad gub gun (when do I learn to type :facepalm:), would cause an immense problem with your MM.

Many tanks would drop because the tank cannot penetrate other tanks frontally (I assume you mean frontally, as otherwise the current MM is already implementing your idea).

On the other hand , other lower tier tanks will be excluded as they cannot pen these special tankz.

 

Good well thought idea, OP :medal::P

 

I did not mean frontally, because you always have the option to flank, at least theoretically. A good player will find situations he can do it from time to time, although as lemmingrush said it: If you are a bottom tier tank with shitty pen and your team loses, youre not gonna have a good game, that's just how the game works.

I'm gonna take his opinion for a fact as I guess he knows what he's talking about. But... what do you mean by "excluded"? The IS6 has 175 pen which allows him to pen any tier8 heavy in the side, so it could fight tier8. The KV220 also has the pen to get through the armor of most tier5 and 6 heavies (in the side at least). On the other end of the spectrum, light tanks with bad penetration would not be able to meet only a handful of tanks, for example tier6 lights would not be able to see a VK 100.01, but they could still meet an IS-3 or T34.

 

 



juonimies #12 Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:01 AM

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View Postenu_, on 13 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

i think it's to much limits for a "fair" matchmaking

 

Not too much or too many  but one powerful one. 

 

WG's business idea. 


Edited by juonimies, 15 February 2018 - 10:06 AM.


spamhamstar #13 Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:47 AM

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View PostAnimalAsLeader, on 14 February 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

 

I'm not really sure how you want to back up your assumption. I'm registered for 2 years and I have the amount of battles I have, because I like spending my time otherwise than sitting in fron of my PC and destroying digital tanks all day. I'm not even gonna comment on this idiotic thought.

 

 

Normally having a look at how many games & how well someone has played in their tier 1 & 2's is a pretty good indicator of any previous xp they have in the game.  I'd also be highly sceptical if you are claiming that this is your 1st account.  Not sure what difference it'd make to your idea tho.

 

View PostAnimalAsLeader, on 14 February 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

 

I did not mean frontally, because you always have the option to flank, at least theoretically. A good player will find situations he can do it from time to time, although as lemmingrush said it: If you are a bottom tier tank with shitty pen and your team loses, youre not gonna have a good game, that's just how the game works.

I'm gonna take his opinion for a fact as I guess he knows what he's talking about. But... what do you mean by "excluded"? The IS6 has 175 pen which allows him to pen any tier8 heavy in the side, so it could fight tier8. The KV220 also has the pen to get through the armor of most tier5 and 6 heavies (in the side at least). On the other end of the spectrum, light tanks with bad penetration would not be able to meet only a handful of tanks, for example tier6 lights would not be able to see a VK 100.01, but they could still meet an IS-3 or T34.

 

 

 

So while WG are trying to remove tanks with +1 mm you think that some, like the is6, should get +0 mm?  You do realise that forcing players to feel like they need to press the 2 key is part of WG's business model & helps to keep their balancing dept in vodka?  Tier 6 lights can pen the vk with prem ammo & can also do that light tank thing of spotting for their allies.



AnimalAsLeader #14 Posted 15 February 2018 - 11:10 AM

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View Postspamhamstar, on 15 February 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

 

Normally having a look at how many games & how well someone has played in their tier 1 & 2's is a pretty good indicator of any previous xp they have in the game.  I'd also be highly sceptical if you are claiming that this is your 1st account.  Not sure what difference it'd make to your idea tho.

 

 

So while WG are trying to remove tanks with +1 mm you think that some, like the is6, should get +0 mm?  You do realise that forcing players to feel like they need to press the 2 key is part of WG's business model & helps to keep their balancing dept in vodka?  Tier 6 lights can pen the vk with prem ammo & can also do that light tank thing of spotting for their allies.

I played Dota2 competitively for 3 years (top 0.05'% of the players) and applied my knowledge to WoT plus kept an open mind and learned as quickly as possible. If you're good at something and you know what makes you good, you can basically transfer that approach to anything else.

 

I'm not proopsing a +0mm, at least not for the IS-6. It can pen tier9 mediums and lights, right? It can also pen things like the Conway, the FV 4005, the Grille 15 etc.

And yes, I do realize that "gold ammo" is a part of the game, but that doesn't mean I approve. It's also rather a theoretical concept, rather than something I'd say "you need to implement this to make the game good". There's plenty of other options, and as I mentioned, it's really only like 0.5% battles that would be affected by this mm.

 

Also, yeah, lights can scout. But you have no control over your teammates' guns. You can't force them to shoot at sth you spotted, and if they camp in shitty positions you're basically just waiting until someone in the enemy team yolos yu. I know, it's a pretty generalizing opinion and you should play to your team and whatnot, but in general, if you want to carry, you need to do the damage yourself.



spamhamstar #15 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:02 PM

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View PostAnimalAsLeader, on 15 February 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

I played Dota2 competitively for 3 years (top 0.05'% of the players) and applied my knowledge to WoT plus kept an open mind and learned as quickly as possible. If you're good at something and you know what makes you good, you can basically transfer that approach to anything else.

 

I'm not proopsing a +0mm, at least not for the IS-6. It can pen tier9 mediums and lights, right? It can also pen things like the Conway, the FV 4005, the Grille 15 etc.

And yes, I do realize that "gold ammo" is a part of the game, but that doesn't mean I approve. It's also rather a theoretical concept, rather than something I'd say "you need to implement this to make the game good". There's plenty of other options, and as I mentioned, it's really only like 0.5% battles that would be affected by this mm.

 

Also, yeah, lights can scout. But you have no control over your teammates' guns. You can't force them to shoot at sth you spotted, and if they camp in shitty positions you're basically just waiting until someone in the enemy team yolos yu. I know, it's a pretty generalizing opinion and you should play to your team and whatnot, but in general, if you want to carry, you need to do the damage yourself.

 

I'd just be concerned that if you either give light tanks a gun that can pen anything they meet, or change mm so that their current gun can pen anything they meet, then they'll become somewhat OP.  I'm thinking of the GF & type 64 that couldn't be rebalanced with the rest of the lights when they fixed the tiers.

 

Previous to the rebalance the 59-16 with autoloader was my fav tank in game & it could hardly pen anything apart from arty & other light tanks. It even struggled with the rear armour on the t150 let alone tier 9 heavies.  It was the challenge of having to choose your targets that made it so enjoyable, for me at least.



AnimalAsLeader #16 Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:51 PM

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the Type64 is a very good tank, yes, but so is the T37, and there aren't many tanks they can meet that you couldn't pen even in the rear. I can only think of the VK100.01, the Mauerbrecher that nobody plays, the Kv-4 and the Defender. These are not such common tanks that you would see them in every game, and let's be honest: If a Type64 could not meet these 4 tanks, would it make it more OP? It could still meet other tier8 tanks that can oneshot it. In a 1v1 the Type64 has no chance against any tier8 tank, no matter the armor, just because of the HP difference. Assuming both players are somewhat equally skilled, ofc. And if they are not, why punish the good player? How much you can do to win the battle should be limited to your own skill and not to the matchmaker.

 

But adjusting the matchmaking is not the only way to make lights viable again. In another thread someone asked what's the point in playing lights if they have crapguns, and mediums often have more view range? Now, lights have better camo and they dont lose camo when moving, but I could imagine that you could buff lights by giving them the ability to spot beyond the 450m range up to their maximum view range and make them the only class that can do so. This would make them powerful scouts and balance out their weak guns.



Geno1isme #17 Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:33 PM

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First, you'd have to define exactly what "cannot penetrate" means. A T-43 for example can pen a Type 4, though chances are certainly not in its favor. I'm not sure if there is any combination where one tank definitely cannot pen another tank in a +-2MM setup, so you need some criteria what chances are "not good enough".

 

But more importantly you cannot just look at individual tanks. Lets take your Type-64 example: If it cannot meet a T8 superheavy it also means nobody on its team can meet a T8 superheavy. It does however not prevent a T8 superheavy appearing in his own team (assuming no "blocking" tank on the enemy team). So the Type-64 can kinda eliminate the natural enemy of his allies just by its existance. Not only does this contradict other MM rules implemented by WG, it might actually even cause deadlocks of the MM.

 

The problem you describe is not a MM problem, it's a balancing problem, reinforced by the braindead template MM algorithm. All the MM "improvements" WG has come up with since 9.18 are just bad attempts to cover this up, just like your proposal would (if it worked at all).



Homer_J #18 Posted 15 February 2018 - 04:26 PM

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View PostAnimalAsLeader, on 14 February 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

So, let's try to answer you guys:

 

This is simply not true. The T-43 cannot penetrate the Type 4 heavy .. with standard rounds.

 

It's can, it's just a matter of knowledge.

 

Posted Image

 

And there's a >50% chance on the flat side.



Homer_J #19 Posted 15 February 2018 - 04:30 PM

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And the ST-I

 

Posted Image



AnimalAsLeader #20 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:48 AM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 15 February 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

First, you'd have to define exactly what "cannot penetrate" means. A T-43 for example can pen a Type 4, though chances are certainly not in its favor. I'm not sure if there is any combination where one tank definitely cannot pen another tank in a +-2MM setup, so you need some criteria what chances are "not good enough".

 

But more importantly you cannot just look at individual tanks. Lets take your Type-64 example: If it cannot meet a T8 superheavy it also means nobody on its team can meet a T8 superheavy. It does however not prevent a T8 superheavy appearing in his own team (assuming no "blocking" tank on the enemy team). So the Type-64 can kinda eliminate the natural enemy of his allies just by its existance. Not only does this contradict other MM rules implemented by WG, it might actually even cause deadlocks of the MM.

 

The problem you describe is not a MM problem, it's a balancing problem, reinforced by the braindead template MM algorithm. All the MM "improvements" WG has come up with since 9.18 are just bad attempts to cover this up, just like your proposal would (if it worked at all).

 

Let's try this out with an example:

The matchmaker wants to assemble teams for a 3-5-7 battle with tiers 6-8. It starts with bottom tiers with the lowest pen and picks one per team randomly from the queue. It then checks if the list for one of those tanks contains a tier6 tank they can't pen. Since this is not the case, it can fill up the rest of the 6 slots with random tier6 tanks as it does now. Then it takes a random tier7 and checks if it is in the list for any given tier6 tank. If not, put it in, if yes, take another tier7 tank. Then repeat until you fill up all the tier7 slots, and start with tier8 again. If you reach a dead end, remove the tier6 with the lowest pen, replace it by another tier6 with higher pen and start with tier7 and 8 again. The most complex part about this algorithm is that the matchmaker has to "remember" which tanks it already tested negative. However, it doesn't have to remember players, only tanks.

With this approach, yes, the Type64 could eliminate tier8 tanks for his teammates, but only if you have a Type64 in your team, which doesn't happen always. Also, if you're a tier6 tank with high pen that could actually do well in tier8 mm, the chances to get into the same team with low pen tier6 tanks are not that great. It is more likely you'd stop seeing Type64s in your team than tier8 superheavies in the enemy team.

 

View PostHomer_J, on 15 February 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

 

It's can, it's just a matter of knowledge.

 

 

And there's a >50% chance on the flat side.

Oh yea, okay, according to that logic, you could meet any tank, because the engine decks and the bottom parts of tanks are rarely more than 60 mm. 

 






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