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9 out of 10 of the best 'bouncers' (tier 8-10) are pretty much OP.


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Simeon85 #1 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:22 PM

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Data from Vbaddict lists the best 'bouncers' of damage or 'shots received without damage' out of tier 8-10 as the following -

 

Block Quote

 

Tier: 8-10, Type: All, Nation: All, Premium Tanks: All, Server: All, Map: All, Gametype: All, Team: Both, Battles: >1000, Grouped by: Tanks 
Shots received without taking any damage, e.g. bounces, spall liner

 

http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?tier=810&tanktype=0&nation=0&premium=0&modeid=0&team=0&battles=1000&groupby=0&fieldname=nodamageshotsratio&server=

 

Data is from the last 30 days, so includes the new patch data (hence 257 and 268v4 in there). 

 

I have looked at the WR curves for those 10 tanks (http://wot-news.com/game/tankinfo/en/eu), I have selected the most recent curves for most of the tanks (as this is also the last 30 days) except for the two new tanks as they have only been around since 9.22 anyway. 

 

I also note that for some of these tanks it is early data, however it should be noted that the Obj. 257 data is from 750,00 games and over 100k vehicles, whilst the 268 v4 data is from 166,000 games and over 18k vehicles.

 

(all data in the curves is from the EU server)

 

Aside the T110E3, all the rest are clearly above the reference line for most of the playerbase - 

 

Tanks in position 1-5 (T95 is the base tank):

Posted Image

 

Tanks in position 6-10 (72.01K is the base tank): 

Posted Image

 

Armour power creep at it's finest. 

 

These tanks have either had their armour buffed (T28, Pz VII/VK, Tortoise, Maus) or effectively buffed by more armoured replacements being added (257 is more armoured than T-10, 268 v 4 is more armoured than 263) or they already had stupid levels of armour and just had weaknesses buffed (Type 5 and T95).   

 

It should also be noted that the next 10 tanks in the ranking, positions 11 - 20, contains tanks like the Vk 1001 P, 705, 705A, 112, Badger, and Mauschen. All newer to the game or recently had their armour buffed tanks that I suspect would also produce some over performing win rate curves. 

 

I would suspect many people would probably be surprised to see tanks like the T95, T28 and Tortoise being labelled as OP, but that is unfortunately happens when you give these tanks insane frontal armour without adjusting other areas. 

 

Also IIRC, a few years ago this list would have probably been topped by the Maus, sitting somewhere around the 48% mark, with most of the top 10 being more around the 40-45% mark, we now have 10 tanks that bounce over 49% of shots fired at them. 

 


Edited by Simeon85, 15 February 2018 - 12:25 PM.


Archaean #2 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:38 PM

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Nice, thank you for no new information. Keep providing redundant information please.

OneSock #3 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:39 PM

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Based on that and my own experiences in game the only one I would call OP is 268v4. the others are slow and easy to out manoeuvre, where as the 268v4 is ridiculously agile. 

 

 



UrQuan #4 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:40 PM

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Not really surprising tbh. I always enjoyed armored tanks myself & hence know how strong armor can be when used properly. 

 

Armor is a very strong enhancer, as it allows you to face more difficult odds & survive more situations & allows you to pull more dangerous tasks with lesser risks. Due to this, any advantage on top of armor has to be considered carefully, else you risk making tanks OP rather fast.

 

But people wanted it easy & constantly screamed 'armor weak! Needs buffs! More buffs!' Also the classic 'weakspots make armor useless' and 'Gold ammo makes armor useless'

No it didn't, I drove my armored heavies with weakspots & all and made them bounce like crazy, but I was balanced out by bad mobility, bad viewrange (usually) & subpar gun handling/stats (compared to HT's with less armor)

 

But nowadays, heavies get gifted good characteristics on top of their armor & people wonder why they're OP, even with mobility being bad (and lately, even that is getting scrapped...)

Thing is, mobility is mainly useful to get in positions first, giving you an advantage against the guy who still needs to get to the spot. Armor exists to give you the ability to take the spot against the more mobile tank, as you're more resistant to damage, so you don't have to be first, you just have to endure longer (which armor helps a ton with)

 

The thing is, armor always gives you an advantage, it makes you harder to kill, even if you don't use it, simply because of game mechanics. Things can get ridiculous when you do take advantage of your armor & the game mechanics.

And with the newer 'NEED MOrE ARMOR!' tanks, it goes up to ridiculous levels.

 

KV-4 teambattle session: Bounce that damage

 

View PostOneSock, on 15 February 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

Based on that and my own experiences in game the only one I would call OP is 268v4. the others are slow and easy to out manoeuvre, where as the 268v4 is ridiculously agile. 

 

 

 

That's the theory. In the game, it's not easy & flanking rarely is an option early game (and even late game, when the enemies are smart & stay grouped). You're not alone, neither is the enemy. 

And for the majority of the players, it just simply doesn't work that way. Because in many cases, flanking someone does mean you got to take a few hits & nobody wants that. So the armored tank gets to shoot your team with little punishment.

 

The simple crux of the matter is: Are you willing to die for the team to take out an armored tank? If the answer is no, why give the advise to flank at all? Because flanking that heavy does mean putting yourself into the firing line of his support.

 

A good example is this match really:

Rolling the KV-4 to victory

 


Edited by UrQuan, 16 February 2018 - 08:49 PM.


Kirk_Helmet #5 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:43 PM

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There are games where every shot penetrates and does damage as long as you hit... FPS games. Really some tanks in this game are supposed to bounce a lot, let's not nerf them all...

Anyway Type 5 making it into the top 10 shows that some people are not spamming gold at it. That's a surprise.



Long_Range_Sniper #6 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:50 PM

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I think Kandly's comment about the Defender says things we know, but won't get any more detail from Wargaming.

 

View PostKandly, on 10 February 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

Fast forward to today, a lot of work has been accomplished on the overall game balance, changing the metagame significantly, and leading us to re-assess the state of the Defender.

 

 "Changing the metagame significantly".

 

I've not seen any Q&A from dev's where they talk about the meta changing significantly. 

 

If WG staff say the meta has changed then they know how it's changed, and what it's become? As usual, us players have to try and read the tea leaves through data sourced from the outcomes of WG's changes. 

 

Whilst the FCM 50t was PMM and is now withdrawn, I'd like to see what CDC are like currently? 

 

Armour creep is here and is a reality.



Simeon85 #7 Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:00 PM

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View PostKirk_Helmet, on 15 February 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

Really some tanks in this game are supposed to bounce a lot, let's not nerf them all...

 

 

Yes they are, but they should not do this by default. Some brain power, knowledge and awareness should be required to get the best out of armoured tanks, they shouldn't just default work like many of the tanks in this list do. 

 

We have always had these tanks, IS4, E100, Kv-4, old Maus etc. their armour always worked if you knew what you were doing, just like Urquan says. Like I said the Maus used to bounce 50% of the shots at it, it needed no armour buffs, it needed some quality of life buffs in other areas. 

 

Plus most of these tanks combine extreme armour, with good firwpower and acceptable mobility (or good mobility in the 257 and 268 v4s case), it's too much, paper tanks generally don;t get amazing guns for being paper, they don't get extreme mobility. 

 

Also mobility is a tool to be used, being fast does not gain you anything unless you learn to how to use it, learn the best places to position yourself, move around the battlefield, only then you gain the benefit of mobility.

 

Armour in this game used to be the same, a tool you had to use correctly, learn how to hide weakspots, where to position yourself, learn to angle, learn what tanks you could bounce and who you couldn't. Now people just expect invinvible idiot proof armour that all they have to do is just press RRR and they are golden. it's got the absurd point where people are expecting good side armour as well, not just front all armour. 

 

Block Quote

 Anyway Type 5 making it into the top 10 shows that some people are not spamming gold at it. That's a surprise.

 

Type 5 is able to bounce tier 10 330/340 HEAT rounds, plus it faces loads of tanks that simply cannot pen it anywhere frontally, many tier 8s struggle to pen it in the sides. 

 

People seem to forget that, it doesn't just face gold spamming Obj. 140s.

 

Not to mention that every Type 5 is spamming gold HE anyway and deserves nothing but gold shot at it as it is a broken OP tank and every driver of it deserves that frustration for choosing to play such a broken vehicle, 



8126Jakobsson #8 Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:05 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 15 February 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

I think Kandly's comment about the Defender says things we know, but won't get any more detail from Wargaming.

 

 

 "Changing the metagame significantly".

 

I've not seen any Q&A from dev's where they talk about the meta changing significantly. 

 

If WG staff say the meta has changed then they know how it's changed, and what it's become? As usual, us players have to try and read the tea leaves through data sourced from the outcomes of WG's changes. 

 

Whilst the FCM 50t was PMM and is now withdrawn, I'd like to see what CDC are like currently? 

 

Armour creep is here and is a reality.

 

​I think her comment is false and suspect that it is just a way to try to ease in a future sale. Tier 8 meta hasn't really changed. Look at the additions of tanks since then and we'll see that it's pretty much status quo. The tier just gets screwed up more often due to the mm change.

Kirk_Helmet #9 Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:10 PM

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I agree that they shouldn't bounce everything just staying still in the open, but the brain power and knowledge should be used on both sides. The fact that tank is well armored just by itself is no reason to nerf it. Just as heavy armored tank driver should put some effort into being able to bounce a lot also those shooting at him should not be able to penetrate without proper aiming.

 

And about Type 5 - well I got it and it's no fun for me. I believe it's broken, but saying that every Type 5 is spamming gold you are very wrong. Personally I don't do it and those I meet in battles usually just fire standard HE at me. Anyway this tank's design just doesn't fit the current game at all. It should be reworked or replaced imo.



TankkiPoju #10 Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:27 PM

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View Post8126Jakobsson, on 15 February 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

 Tier 8 meta hasn't really changed.

 

Tier 8 mediums have suffered a LOT in recent years. 240 pew pew alpha, crap DPM and no armor is a pretty difficult combination these days. Why would anyone play tanks like Pershing anymore, except to grind past them as fast as possible.



brumbarr #11 Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:43 PM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 15 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

 

Tier 8 mediums have suffered a LOT in recent years. 240 pew pew alpha, crap DPM and no armor is a pretty difficult combination these days. Why would anyone play tanks like Pershing anymore, except to grind past them as fast as possible.

Recent years yes, but not since the defender was added.



Jotneblod #12 Posted 15 February 2018 - 06:52 PM

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It's good for the game. Giving tanks, especially TDs armor means people are going to play them more aggressively. :)

 

Oh wait...



Simeon85 #13 Posted 16 February 2018 - 03:31 PM

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View PostJotneblod, on 15 February 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

It's good for the game. Giving tanks, especially TDs armor means people are going to play them more aggressively. :)

 

Oh wait...

 

I wonder whether that is WG's intention, make all these armoured forgiving tanks, so supposedly the game slows down and everyone dies more slowly, but doesn't seem to be working really.

 

They would be better off teaching players to perform better in more open maps, when getting flanked, making better decisions etc. 



Procjon #14 Posted 16 February 2018 - 06:04 PM

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Also IIRC, a few years ago this list would have probably been topped by the Maus, sitting somewhere around the 48% mark, with most of the top 10 being more around the 40-45% mark, we now have 10 tanks that bounce over 49% of shots fired at them. 

 

 

More armor = more premium ammo = more premium accounts = more money for WG

 

It is a basic example of business model for WG.

 

hf






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