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T67 needs a major nerf

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Simeon85 #21 Posted 16 February 2018 - 10:46 AM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 16 February 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

I can.  Any tier 4 TD with 105mm can one shot same tier medium.

I think the other tier 4 TDs are at least as fast as the T67 with their pew pew guns.

 

 

Forgot about those tier 4 derps, so I had a quick look at the tier 4 TD WR curves, T40 as an example is quite OP as well, same with Hetzer and some others are borderline. 

 

 

View PostJocMeister, on 16 February 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

 

You consider 2% higher WR as an indication it needs an immediate nerf?

 

When I look at VB addict it sits at 51.48% average WR. There are a tonne of other TDs higher than that. You think the SU-100M needs a nerf too or AT-8? They have higher WR than the the T67. S1 and Shitbarn as just below the T67 in WR curves. I´m not saying its a bad tank. Its a very good tank but its not so OPed it needs a massive nerf. Its just a tank that is easy to exploit by very good players. Nerfing it might make them move to another tank but it will hurt "normal" players.

 

I just cant believe people have such a big problem with this tank when we have abominations like Type 4&5, Maus, 907 and, 268 v4 in the game. Those are gamebreaking tanks that completely ruined 3 tiers....T67 is an insignificant problem compared to that.

 

Vbaddict is irrelevant, it's a global win rate, thus you have no idea who is playing those tanks and how good they are. Hence why I showed the WR curves as they show the performance of the tank for each skill level. 

 

Increasing your overall win rate by 2% can shift you from the top 60% of players in the game into the top 27% of players, so yes I consider a tank that can boost a player by 2% a problem. 

 

I mean you have 20 tanks with over 200 games played, so a good sample, and the T67 has the highest WR and 3rd highest WN8 of all those tanks you have played. You have a WR 6% higher in the T67 than your overall and struggle to match that WR in other more balanced tanks. 

 


Edited by Simeon85, 16 February 2018 - 10:47 AM.


Geno1isme #22 Posted 16 February 2018 - 10:50 AM

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Yeah, DPM needs like a 40% nerf, or a general 20% nerf to DPM, mobility (esp. the 20 kph backwards allow it to dodge shots quite effective) and viewrange. Or cripple its insane camo value.

This abomination has almost the same mobility as the Chaffee, but a much better gun, 40% more DPM and even better camo. Only real drawback is the TD-typical horrible turret traverse speed.

 

Even WG admitted years ago that the T67 is completely over the top, but then it probably generates quite a bit of profit for WG due to goldspamming sealclubber [edited].



Sirebellus #23 Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:05 AM

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T67's blow up so beautifully when hit by an Arty shell...

Ziurawka #24 Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:07 AM

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View PostRenesco, on 16 February 2018 - 03:47 AM, said:

A sizable portion of tier 4, 5 and 6 matches are dominated by T67s. Invisible T67s driven by some guy with 1,000 to 2,000 matches in the thing. The fact that they're so popular and can turn matches so easily means they're hugely OP. They've crazy camouflage and an insanely good gun. Nerf hard please.

 



Gkirmathal #25 Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:15 AM

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View PostSimeon85, on 16 February 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

...snip...

 

DPM needs a heavy nerf, it should be like 1.5-1.6k tops

 

 

This will be the most logical and simplest solution to the issue.

But, we all know WG. Their balance department monkeys will probably nerf it by hitting it with an interstellar extinction level event nerf asteroid. :trollface:

 

But yeah a nerf to only it's DPM would be very much sufficient.



Baldrickk #26 Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:26 AM

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View PostJocMeister, on 16 February 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

 

You consider 2% higher WR as an indication it needs an immediate nerf?

 

When I look at VB addict it sits at 51.48% average WR. There are a tonne of other TDs higher than that. You think the SU-100M needs a nerf too or AT-8? They have higher WR than the the T67. S1 and Shitbarn as just below the T67 in WR curves. I´m not saying its a bad tank. Its a very good tank but its not so OPed it needs a massive nerf. Its just a tank that is easy to exploit by very good players. Nerfing it might make them move to another tank but it will hurt "normal" players.

 

I just cant believe people have such a big problem with this tank when we have abominations like Type 4&5, Maus, 907 and, 268 v4 in the game. Those are gamebreaking tanks that completely ruined 3 tiers....T67 is an insignificant problem compared to that.

 The thing is that the T67 is often all or nothing. 

 

Yes is can do really, really well in battles. (I mean, I got a radley in mine with a sub 100% crew (I bought it back to train new crew and fix my 47% WR in it from the first time around) on Abbey of all maps the last time I took it out) but it also does really, really badly in just as many battles, or almost as many.

 

This makes it look OP when you focus mainly on the sealclubbers with very skilled crews playing it well. 



Pansenmann #27 Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:28 AM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 16 February 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

I can.  Any tier 4 TD with 105mm can one shot same tier medium.

I think the other tier 4 TDs are at least as fast as the T67 with their pew pew guns.

 

 

SAu40 would like to have a word with you.

JocMeister #28 Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:45 AM

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View PostSimeon85, on 16 February 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

 

Forgot about those tier 4 derps, so I had a quick look at the tier 4 TD WR curves, T40 as an example is quite OP as well, same with Hetzer and some others are borderline. 

 

 

 

Vbaddict is irrelevant, it's a global win rate, thus you have no idea who is playing those tanks and how good they are. Hence why I showed the WR curves as they show the performance of the tank for each skill level. 

 

Increasing your overall win rate by 2% can shift you from the top 60% of players in the game into the top 27% of players, so yes I consider a tank that can boost a player by 2% a problem. 

 

I mean you have 20 tanks with over 200 games played, so a good sample, and the T67 has the highest WR and 3rd highest WN8 of all those tanks you have played. You have a WR 6% higher in the T67 than your overall and struggle to match that WR in other more balanced tanks. 

 

 

Admittedly I don´t know how statistics work but why on earth would a global WR not be a good indicator? Global is global right? Good and bad players. If it was OPed as hell I would expect to see why higher numbers then 51,48% WR. Also...2% difference can make a 46% pleb into a 48% pleb...And a 58% to a 60%. Not only "shift you from the top 60% of players in the game into the top 27% of players"

 

You cant cherry pick stuff to suit your own opinion. Regarding my own T67 stats you make it sound like my T67 is significantly higher than all my other tanks as "I struggle to match that". That is simply not true. And you then compare my T67 WR with my overall WR which is completely irrelevant. If you want to make a reference then do that with my recent WR which is 60.88 (only 0.85 lower than the T67).

 

And if you REALLY want to look at things unbiased why don´t we look at my recent Tier 5 stats as a comparison to the T67 eh? I guess we SERIOUSLY need to nerf the T-50, Chi-Nu and don´t forget BDR. Holy hell they are broken....and please don´t give me the "small sample size" speech. We both know they will not change much. If anything they will probably go up.

 

 

Point being: Don´t cherry pick numbers that suit your argument. According to your own arguments the T-67 is actually under performing for me....

 

EDIT. If a nerf is actually needed (which I don´t think) then nerf the mobility. That would not effect the overall bob very much but it would seriously dampen its use as "filthy stetpadder tanku). Lowering the DPM would hurt average bobs a lot more than decreasing mobility.


Edited by JocMeister, 16 February 2018 - 11:49 AM.


Simeon85 #29 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:08 PM

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View PostJocMeister, on 16 February 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

 

Admittedly I don´t know how statistics work but why on earth would a global WR not be a good indicator? Global is global right? Good and bad players. If it was OPed as hell I would expect to see why higher numbers then 51,48% WR. Also...2% difference can make a 46% pleb into a 48% pleb...And a 58% to a 60%. Not only "shift you from the top 60% of players in the game into the top 27% of players"

 

You cant cherry pick stuff to suit your own opinion. Regarding my own T67 stats you make it sound like my T67 is significantly higher than all my other tanks as "I struggle to match that". That is simply not true. And you then compare my T67 WR with my overall WR which is completely irrelevant. If you want to make a reference then do that with my recent WR which is 60.88 (only 0.85 lower than the T67).

 

And if you REALLY want to look at things unbiased why don´t we look at my recent Tier 5 stats as a comparison to the T67 eh? I guess we SERIOUSLY need to nerf the T-50, Chi-Nu and don´t forget BDR. Holy hell they are broken....and please don´t give me the "small sample size" speech. We both know they will not change much. If anything they will probably go up.

 

 

Point being: Don´t cherry pick numbers that suit your argument. According to your own arguments the T-67 is actually under performing for me....

 

EDIT. If a nerf is actually needed (which I don´t think) then nerf the mobility. That would not effect the overall bob very much but it would seriously dampen its use as "filthy stetpadder tanku). Lowering the DPM would hurt average bobs a lot more than decreasing mobility.

 

I told you why, you don't know if the sample for the T67 is the same for the other tanks, you don't know how good those players are playing that tank. According to global win rates the FV4202 is better than the IS3 and both are better than the Chrysler K.

 

Hence why global win rates are irrelevant, the WZ-111 is the 9th best tier 8 tank according global win rates. The WR curves give you a more consistent base line, a 48% overall player across thousands of players are likely to be similar in ability on average. 

 

I am also not cherry picking anything, I looked at your top played tanks, tanks that had a good sample size and would cover a broad reach of your tanks played at various times, very few tanks you have a decent amount of games in come close to to your T67.

 

Cherry picking is what you have just done, recent small samples of other tier 5 tanks, you have just told me your recent performance is higher than your overall, so of course recently played tier 5 tanks will likely have higher results, you have played them recently. T67 is not in there I note, meaning you have not played it recently, it is more historical yet still matches your recent results. 

 

Clearly if you played a decent sample of T67 games now, it would likely be higher than most of your recent other tiers 5, cos you are playing better and you would get boosted by an OP tank.

 

Your overall tier 5 win rate is 56.98% from 2687 games, that includes those 277 games you have played in the T67, which has a much higher 61.73% win rate, and the T67 is boosting that overall number anyway, you are over 5% higher in the T67 compared to your tier 5 average. 

 

Block Quote

  Also...2% difference can make a 46% pleb into a 48% pleb...And a 58% to a 60%

 

Those are also big jumps so I have no idea what you are trying to show with this comment. People with 58% overall win rates will tell you that it's not easy to jump up to 60% plus. Unless of course you play the OP T67, where on average you'll jump to over a 62% WR just by playing that tank. 

 

 



Baldrickk #30 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:10 PM

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View PostPansenmann, on 16 February 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

 

SAu40 would like to have a word with you.

The SAu40 has a derp...

 

I mean it's still terrible, but the gun's not bad. 



vasilinhorulezz #31 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:25 PM

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View PostgunslingerXXX, on 16 February 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

One of the biggest problems in tier 5/6 is the gap in crew skills between veterans and new players in my opinion. This is especially noticable for the T67, put full camo crew with BIA and some view-range skills and it's a stupidly OP tank at tier 5.

 

 

And without them it's pretty much an xp pinata.

The problem doesn't lie on the tank it's self but on players making the most out of it, with epic crews and equipment.

New players don't have the economy to equip and have 2 or 3 skill crews on their tier 5s, so veterans just take advantage of it.

Nerf?

They did nerf the Marder II, and now it's pretty bad.



MR_FIAT #32 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:27 PM

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Imo a nerf to its DPM and a buff to its accuracy would be fine, maybe cut its speed a little too. i found the accuracy to be a bit annoying but its super frustrating when on the receiving end of that DPM/Camo combo.

Dava_117 #33 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:41 PM

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Wolverine has the same DPM of T67, but it's far less seen in battle. So it may be better to nerf mobility or cammo, leaving DPM as it is.

BTW, never had too much problem with T67, but that WR curve shows it'OP so a bit of tuning is needed...


Edited by Dava_117, 16 February 2018 - 12:42 PM.


HaZardeur #34 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:42 PM

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My M4 derp loves them.

KillingJoker #35 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:51 PM

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I would nerf its mobility, but that wont stop better players from getting great results, because that tank is all about taking a great position and farming dmg

and that gun, is allready in the tier IV , so you cant its because of the gun, perhaps you could nerf the dpm of the gun, but still, it wont stop better players from doing great games

because all they need is a fairly mobile tank with decent camuflage and thats it...

 

the M8A1 is pretty damn good as well, yet it doesnt have the same "statpading" seal clubbing fame...

 

in my opinion the tier V thanks are all very good, if you put them in the hands of better/experienced players, or even re-rollers, they will allways do great if it isnt in the T-67

its in the M-10 Wolverine with the derp gun with excelent aim time... or KV-1S or a Panzer IV, it doesnt matter, because at tier V all the tanks are in most cases poorly armored, but they have guns that can penetrate and do damage to pretty much everything in its tier, its a very well balanced tier, since they removed the 300 dmg from the OI-experimental the tier became even more balanced, so i dont think nerfing the T-67 will change anything at all...

 

the tank its still useless in the hands of inexperient players, you give the T-67 to a player who doesnt understand how spoting works, who doesnt have a positioning sense in the game... who doesnt know what the tank can do and cant do... and its useless, the player dies very quickly, because it doesnt have any armor and it have a very little health...

 

the KV-1 in comparison is way more friendly for a new player, becuase it allow it for mistakes, it can aford to cross a street sideways in front of 3 or 4 enemies and survive...

 

Yet, if they nerf the T67 its ok, but wont do anything, its simply a tank with a very high envelope, its not easy to play for a noob and gives a great high sealing of results for an experienced player. 



JocMeister #36 Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:07 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 16 February 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

 

I told you why, you don't know if the sample for the T67 is the same for the other tanks, you don't know how good those players are playing that tank. According to global win rates the FV4202 is better than the IS3 and both are better than the Chrysler K.

 

Hence why global win rates are irrelevant, the WZ-111 is the 9th best tier 8 tank according global win rates. The WR curves give you a more consistent base line, a 48% overall player across thousands of players are likely to be similar in ability on average. 

 

I am also not cherry picking anything, I looked at your top played tanks, tanks that had a good sample size and would cover a broad reach of your tanks played at various times, very few tanks you have a decent amount of games in come close to to your T67.

 

Cherry picking is what you have just done, recent small samples of other tier 5 tanks, you have just told me your recent performance is higher than your overall, so of course recently played tier 5 tanks will likely have higher results, you have played them recently. T67 is not in there I note, meaning you have not played it recently, it is more historical yet still matches your recent results. 

 

Clearly if you played a decent sample of T67 games now, it would likely be higher than most of your recent other tiers 5, cos you are playing better and you would get boosted by an OP tank.

 

Your overall tier 5 win rate is 56.98% from 2687 games, that includes those 277 games you have played in the T67, which has a much higher 61.73% win rate, and the T67 is boosting that overall number anyway, you are over 5% higher in the T67 compared to your tier 5 average. 

 

 

Those are also big jumps so I have no idea what you are trying to show with this comment. People with 58% overall win rates will tell you that it's not easy to jump up to 60% plus. Unless of course you play the OP T67, where on average you'll jump to over a 62% WR just by playing that tank. 

 

 

 

Yes you ARE cherry picking number that suit your own arguments. 

 

First:

There are a number of tanks with "decent amount of battles" that comes close to the T67. You just ignore them. T34-85, T34-85M, Jackson, T54, Type 64, IS6 are all very close to the T67 with a similar amount of battles.. Especially when you consider they are all higher tier which in itself will lower WR as the opposition gets better better.

 

Secondly. Obviously my T67 stats are based on recent performance. Come on dude you know that. The stats I can retrieve from WoTzilla only go back 1k battles thats why the T67 isnt there. The stats I showed you are ALL my recent T5 battles within 1k battles which are the only one I can show. I just showed them to question your statement that the T67 is "OPed". And don´t use the "small sample size" excuse just because the numbers doesn´t suit your arguments. As I said we both know they will hardly change up or down even if I played 200 battles in them. If anything they would probably go up as the crews get better.

 

Thirdly. Stop comparing RECENT stats with overall stats...its just plain dumb.

 

Not going to waste more time on this. My opinion stands. The T67 is a really good in capable hands but so is pretty much every Tier 5 tank and there are certainly way stronger tanks @ tier 5 than the T67. And again, wasting time on crying about Tier 5 tanks when WG have put tanks like the Japanese HTs in the game... :child:

 

 

 



Simeon85 #37 Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:21 PM

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View PostJocMeister, on 16 February 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

The T67 is a really good in capable hands but so is pretty much every Tier 5 tank 

 

This statement is factually incorrect as I have shown.

 

The tank is objectively OP end of, and no I was not cherry picking, whichever way you look at it, the T67 out performs most of your other tier 5s, which then anecdotally as a one off example supports what the WR curves also show, that the tank consistently boosts players WRs across all skill levels. 

 

Also sample size is not an 'excuse' it's common in all statistics, you can't show me 30-40 battles in some tank and pretend like it is a valid comparison to nearly 300 battles. 



Rati_Festa #38 Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:44 PM

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View PostJocMeister, on 16 February 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

 

Yes you ARE cherry picking number that suit your own arguments. 

 

First:

There are a number of tanks with "decent amount of battles" that comes close to the T67. You just ignore them. T34-85, T34-85M, Jackson, T54, Type 64, IS6 are all very close to the T67 with a similar amount of battles.. Especially when you consider they are all higher tier which in itself will lower WR as the opposition gets better better.

 

Secondly. Obviously my T67 stats are based on recent performance. Come on dude you know that. The stats I can retrieve from WoTzilla only go back 1k battles thats why the T67 isnt there. The stats I showed you are ALL my recent T5 battles within 1k battles which are the only one I can show. I just showed them to question your statement that the T67 is "OPed". And don´t use the "small sample size" excuse just because the numbers doesn´t suit your arguments. As I said we both know they will hardly change up or down even if I played 200 battles in them. If anything they would probably go up as the crews get better.

 

Thirdly. Stop comparing RECENT stats with overall stats...its just plain dumb.

 

Not going to waste more time on this. My opinion stands. The T67 is a really good in capable hands but so is pretty much every Tier 5 tank and there are certainly way stronger tanks @ tier 5 than the T67. And again, wasting time on crying about Tier 5 tanks when WG have put tanks like the Japanese HTs in the game... :child:

 

 

 

 

If the tank wasn't OP, it wouldn't be the seal clubbers tank of choice would it? Your talking crap.

 

Last year when I was platooning at lower tiers with a less experience player and grinding new lines, I noticed how many seal clubbers in t67 there were. I started to purposefully hunt them down in my 7 skill PZ4 with the derp... I had great fun spoiling their clubbing :) . I plan on returning to that task again later in the month.



Baldrickk #39 Posted 16 February 2018 - 02:22 PM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 16 February 2018 - 01:44 PM, said:

 

If the tank wasn't OP, it wouldn't be the seal clubbers tank of choice would it? Your talking crap.

 

Last year when I was platooning at lower tiers with a less experience player and grinding new lines, I noticed how many seal clubbers in t67 there were. I started to purposefully hunt them down in my 7 skill PZ4 with the derp... I had great fun spoiling their clubbing :) . I plan on returning to that task again later in the month.

Have you heard of minmaxing?

Something can appear OP without actually being so, simply because it is being used in a manner that suits it.

 

So you have a 7 skill PzIV? Arguably the second most popular non premium seal clubber at tier 5, and you're going to take it out.

What are you going to do if/when there are no sealclubbing T67s in the battle.  Suicide?

I can guarantee that the vast minority of the players you will be hunting down will have vastly poorer crews than you. 



Geno1isme #40 Posted 16 February 2018 - 02:25 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 16 February 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

Wolverine has the same DPM of T67, but it's far less seen in battle. So it may be better to nerf mobility or cammo, leaving DPM as it is.

 

Wolverine simply doesn't have that insane camo and mobility, also worse dispersion softstats, so it's not as flexible. I'd rather not convert the T67 into a Wolverine clone though. Easiest option would be to simply remove the 76mm gun from it, but then it should really be reclassified as a light, so not the best option.

 

View PostKillingJoker, on 16 February 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

the M8A1 is pretty damn good as well, yet it doesnt have the same "statpading" seal clubbing fame...

 

It doesn't have that insane DPM, less mobility and horrible gunhandling stats. Plus it's even more vulnerable to derp-guns, T4 has horrible MM since 9.18, and there is less activity at that tier in general.

View PostKillingJoker, on 16 February 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

in my opinion the tier V thanks are all very good, if you put them in the hands of better/experienced players, or even re-rollers, they will allways do great if it isnt in the T-67

its in the M-10 Wolverine with the derp gun with excelent aim time... or KV-1S or a Panzer IV, it doesnt matter, because at tier V all the tanks are in most cases poorly armored, but they have guns that can penetrate and do damage to pretty much everything in its tier, its a very well balanced tier, since they removed the 300 dmg from the OI-experimental the tier became even more balanced, so i dont think nerfing the T-67 will change anything at all...

While it's true that good players will do very well in any of the listed tanks, they don't equal the potential of a well-played T67: Esp. in an endgame situation on an open map is almost impossible to outplay a well-played T67 in any tank it can meet due to the combination of mobility (almost equal to lights), camo (superior to lights) and firepower (equal to higher-tier meds).







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