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8,8 cm KwK 36 L/56


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Poll: 8,8 cm KwK 36 L/56 (176 members have cast votes)

Should they increase the penetration on the gun?

  1. Yes (152 votes [86.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 86.36%

  2. No (24 votes [13.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

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keegami2 #1 Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:43 PM

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The VK3601H is a great tank but the penetrion on the top cannon sucks,i even bounced a hetzer with it!
I sugest they boost the penetration to something like 120 min 180 max.

Thanks.

Shoeshine #2 Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:31 PM

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160 and drop its RoF slightly to 7.5 or 8 that will bring it on par with the US 90mm

Homer_J #3 Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:41 PM

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View Postkeegami2, on 23 November 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

The VK3601H is a great tank but the penetrion on the top cannon sucks,i even bounced a hetzer with it!


Hetzers bounce everything.  I've bounced with the S70 on them more than once.

The answer is to aim properly.

Zecrodus #4 Posted 24 November 2011 - 10:51 AM

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There is already a huge topic about this gun. In my opinion it is working as intended. I can penetrate anything below T7 without issues and T8-9 are possible target if you aim correctly. Spamming the front of TD or Heavy tank will lead in bad results.

Shoeshine #5 Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:41 AM

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Quote

The answer is to aim properly.
ahhh the good old Learn to aim troll comment, your right of course... the clear imbalance of the gun can be corrected by aiming......but why should you when you dont need to with the other T7 guns???

Quote

There is already a huge topic about this gun. In my opinion it is  working as intended. I can penetrate anything below T7 without issues  and T8-9 are possible target if you aim correctly. Spamming the front of  TD or Heavy tank will lead in bad results.
and the posts will likely continue untill they fix the damn thing,
"wihout issue" suggests penetrating from any angle and range everytime? try it with a KV3 (T6) front on over 200m if you say you can everytime...your lying! (can most of the time with the other two though)
spamming the front of anything T7 down works fine with both the 90mm and the 100mm just the 88 that cant do it

accurate
yes i have used the D10T and could snipe just fine with it
8.8cm = 0.33
90mm = 0.33
100mm = 0.37

RoF
8.8cm = 9.23
90mm = 7.31
100mm = 7.06

damage
8.8cm = 220
90mm = 240
100mm = 230

Penetration
8.8cm = 132mm
90mm = 160mm
100mm = 175mm

Aim time
8.8cm = 2
90mm = 2
100mm = 2

RoF does NOT make up for penetration, it never has (no point pissing ammo at them if you cant hurt them)
people who cannot see that the 88 has the wrong pen value need their eyes tested
fixing the 8.8 would solve a massive issue with most of the German tree

Jukelo #6 Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:50 AM

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The VK36 in its current shape definitely does NOT need a better gun. It's an awesome tank as it is already, and it does not need to penetrate just about everything from any angle. Same with the VK3001H. They are both mobile enough to use the short 88 to its maximum potential.
Now, the jpz4 does need something beefier, but no need to buff the short 88 for that. Just give it a long 88.

Bombastikus #7 Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:54 AM

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View PostShoeshine, on 24 November 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

ahhh the good old Learn to aim troll comment, your right of course... the clear imbalance of the gun can be corrected by aiming......but why should you when you dont need to with the other T7 guns???


and the posts will likely continue untill they fix the damn thing,
"wihout issue" suggests penetrating from any angle and range everytime? try it with a KV3 (T6) front on over 200m if you say you can everytime...your lying! (can most of the time with the other two though)
spamming the front of anything T7 down works fine with both the 90mm and the 100mm just the 88 that cant do it

accurate
yes i have used the D10T and could snipe just fine with it
8.8cm = 0.33
90mm = 0.33
100mm = 0.37

RoF
8.8cm = 9.23
90mm = 7.31
100mm = 7.06

damage
8.8cm = 220
90mm = 240
100mm = 230

Penetration
8.8cm = 132mm
90mm = 160mm
100mm = 175mm

Aim time
8.8cm = 2
90mm = 2
100mm = 2

RoF does NOT make up for penetration, it never has (no point pissing ammo at them if you cant hurt them)
people who cannot see that the 88 has the wrong pen value need their eyes tested
fixing the 8.8 would solve a massive issue with most of the German tree

Yeah, funny thing is if they'd correct the value to 90° vertical I belive you would actually get something in the 160mm range. And even if it would not be historically justified (which it is imho), screw it, from a purley gameplay-balancing point of view it is necessary.


But...as long as people learn to grind through it and overcome it's weaknesses by pure stubornness they won't change it. Heck, honestly I don't know what criteria they use for balance changes. Just look at the coming patch: L71 overall damage nerf, Panther ammorack nerf.....

Magitech #8 Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:08 PM

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View PostJukelo, on 24 November 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

The VK36 in its current shape definitely does NOT need a better gun. It's an awesome tank as it is already, and it does not need to penetrate just about everything from any angle. Same with the VK3001H. They are both mobile enough to use the short 88 to its maximum potential.
Now, the jpz4 does need something beefier, but no need to buff the short 88 for that. Just give it a long 88.

Problem is these arent the only tanks that use the 88/L56 how good is it on Panther? or 3002DB? and for the heck of it even the VK4502A cant switch to a better gun without spending 500k credits.
Simple thing VK3601H and VK3001H wouldnt be op with more pen (less rof) and other tanks would become playable Jgdpz4.
Never played Panther with short 88 and only a few games with 3002DB cause i switched it to the 10,5 derp gun from T5 and hey it was much better i also managed to make a Oskin medal with this gun.

If the HE mechanics really are gonna changed this gun needs more penetration.

Brazilski #9 Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:09 PM

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View PostZecrodus, on 24 November 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

I can penetrate anything below T7 without issues and T8-9 are possible target if you aim correctly.

Is this a troll post?

You can penetrate everything without issues below tier 7 for sure, but definitely not without issues. The carefull aiming you mention is already required against tier 5's, at tier 8-9 carefull aiming grants you a roll of the dice. Against high tiers you really have to hit the weakest weakspots and the short 88's accuracy, or rather lack thereoff, doesn't allow you to do so beyond close range. Even if you do it is still not certain whether you will penetrate. Hit the rim of the driver's hatch? Bounce! Also, it is not just a gun for medium tank, it is the primary weapon for heavies too: both Tigers and the VK3601 (which will become officially heavy in the near future). The real life Tiger didn't even have the L70 upgrade available.

Now, while I am all in favour of "tweaking" guns and deviating from historical accuracy to improve balance, the above for perhaps thé most legendary anti tank gun of WWII is ironic at the least.

Zombot101 #10 Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:27 PM

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TBH the issue i have with the 88mm KwK L/56 is i just dont trust it, its odd performance i have encounterd personally , plus the comments from others , simple means i have zero faith in it as a weapon, HOWEVER the Pak version on the Jagdpanzer IV seem to work fine ?? !!  no idea why.

On my VK3601 i have to use the 75mm L/70 as i have no confidence in the 88mm, and it does make a real differnce to my game play and i achive far far better results when using the 75mm.

On the Jagdpanzer it is the other way around, the Pak gun just works.

Now this may just be me being odd, but i can only report what i find.

Shoeshine #11 Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:38 PM

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View PostZombot101, on 24 November 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

TBH the issue i have with the 88mm KwK L/56 is i just dont trust it, its odd performance i have encounterd personally , plus the comments from others , simple means i have zero faith in it as a weapon, HOWEVER the Pak version on the Jagdpanzer IV seem to work fine ?? !!  no idea why.

On my VK3601 i have to use the 75mm L/70 as i have no confidence in the 88mm, and it does make a real differnce to my game play and i achive far far better results when using the 75mm.

On the Jagdpanzer it is the other way around, the Pak gun just works.

Now this may just be me being odd, but i can only report what i find.

lol im the other way round
the VK3601 is the only tank i have any faith in using the L56 on, thats because the tank is good nothing to do with the gun  (this tanks performance is main reason they wont change the 8.8)
i actually went back to the stubby 10.5 on the JPIV....then sold it cause i couldnt face the grind upto and including 17K on the JPanther to get past the L56

Brazilski #12 Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:02 PM

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View PostShoeshine, on 24 November 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

VK3601 [...] (this tanks performance is main reason they wont change the 8.8)

Well, that's just ridiculous. VK3001(P), VK3001(H), VK3002(DB) and to a lesser extend Panther, Tiger(P), Tiger(H); six tanks all kept !@#$%^&*( because heaven forbids VK3601(H) the seventh might actually become a little bit more OP than it already is.

The VK3601(H) will become a heavy, with the associated different MM and higher repair costs. Once it's a heavy it could do pretty well with a slightly better gun, so that argument is gone. If for some reason it is not, than take away the short 88 from the VK3601(H) alltogether. It will be a armour focussed heavy with just the 75mm L70 (which is still pretty decent). Another option is to take away the short 88, but buff the non-gold ammo Konisch.

sword_of_Damocles #13 Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:32 PM

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This gun needs buff.Discussed in lots of topics in this forum.

Also vk3002DB uses this.With vk's tier MM spread this gun is useless :blink:

Jukelo #14 Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:41 PM

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VK32DB and VK31H are FINE. Only the 3001P and JPZ4 could use a better gun. And dont start with the Tigers and Panther. They only use the short 88 in their STOCK configuration so keep them out of this debate please.

Zecrodus #15 Posted 24 November 2011 - 06:05 PM

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View PostBrazilski, on 24 November 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

Is this a troll post?

You can penetrate everything without issues below tier 7 for sure, but definitely not without issues. The carefull aiming you mention is already required against tier 5's, at tier 8-9 carefull aiming grants you a roll of the dice. Against high tiers you really have to hit the weakest weakspots and the short 88's accuracy, or rather lack thereoff, doesn't allow you to do so beyond close range. Even if you do it is still not certain whether you will penetrate. Hit the rim of the driver's hatch? Bounce! Also, it is not just a gun for medium tank, it is the primary weapon for heavies too: both Tigers and the VK3601 (which will become officially heavy in the near future). The real life Tiger didn't even have the L70 upgrade available.

Now, while I am all in favour of "tweaking" guns and deviating from historical accuracy to improve balance, the above for perhaps thé most legendary anti tank gun of WWII is ironic at the least.

No trolling, just my honest experience with the gun myself. I find it good enough for what it is. I wonder why I can penetrate T-59 for example 70% of the shots even though that tank is pretty bouncy. Also something like Tiger II seems to eat shots like candy. Perhaps I have been then very lucky with my 3001H and 3002DB. Not saying other people are bad to play or anything...

I must say the penetration seems to decrease alot when shot from distance. All these penetrating shots against high tier tanks have been in close range (150m or less) so keep that in mind. Sniping can be painful.

Famet85 #16 Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:11 PM

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The 88mm L/56 need more penetration

Vitamin_C4 #17 Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:22 PM

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View PostZecrodus, on 24 November 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

There is already a huge topic about this gun. In my opinion it is working as intended. I can penetrate anything below T7 without issues and T8-9 are possible target if you aim correctly. Spamming the front of TD or Heavy tank will lead in bad results.

sign...

Tegewaldt #18 Posted 27 June 2012 - 11:39 AM

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the short 8,8 is excells at richochetteering off tanks of the same tier.
i just bounced a KV-1 multiple times with it, and it is frustrating as hell, since the tank now has an incredible pen. :Smile_sceptic:

Zenith #19 Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:31 PM

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Well, there is a big difference between a pen of 132mm, and the 160-175mm of its peers. The imbalance is plain for all to see, unless of course you are refusing to see it. :Smile_smile:

At the very least, it should be around 140mm or so, which is still far less than the other guns, but far more workable.

Schlusenbach #20 Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:59 AM

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View PostFamet85, on 24 November 2011 - 09:11 PM, said:

The 88mm L/56 need more penetration

SIGNED!