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Whats the point of TDs?...


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Bucifel #1 Posted 19 February 2018 - 12:28 AM

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after a lot of tries and tests...i just want to see some opinions...

 

Just like title says...Whats the point for those vehicles, especially turretless ones...?

 

Was suposed to be better gun i believe...better penetration, accuracy...etc.

How is this still an advantage when you can press 2 key on any tank and get TD penetration??? Or when you can pen them OUTSIDE of their weakpoints..?

 

So yes, its about gold ammo again...and how it negate an ENTIRE tank class in this game this time, not only how it negates armor or skill...or RNG.

 

Why you need E4 when you have E100 with 2 key ??

Why you need or want all TDs with fixed guns when you can press 2 key in any other tank and get those TDs advantage on you OVER advantages what you already have on your class??

Why you need Grille FULLY AIMED accuracy when you hit better snapshots with Ruski Tonks???? :facepalm:

Why you need strong front when enemy press 2, PAY MORE, and damage you anyway?? ( NOT ON WEAKPOINTS !!  JGPZ best example ! )

 

great balance WG !!

 

:facepalm:


Edited by Bucifel, 19 February 2018 - 02:20 AM.


Isharial #2 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:07 AM

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so, forgive me for not understanding your point here, but what exactly are you complaining about? TD or some specific non-td tanks getting close to the same pen? (they have other advantages you know)

 

it doesn't "negate an entire class" either


 

many TD are still viable and many are very good.. but you seem to be basing your entire argument on a few underwhelming ones (specially when you include grille into the equation).. is this to "prove" your point or to make false claims.. I don't really know at this point :amazed:


 

you cant judge a tank purely by its pen value... surely you know they have better camo (well the majority of non T10 ones that you seem to have forgetten about) and can move around more without being spotted unlike an E100 or a JPE100....

I don't think that a few T10 ones mean the entire class is broken...



CrniVrag #3 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:31 AM

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View PostIsharial, on 19 February 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

so, forgive me for not understanding your point here, but what exactly are you complaining about? TD or some specific non-td tanks getting close to the same pen? (they have other advantages you know)

 

it doesn't "negate an entire class" either


 

many TD are still viable and many are very good.. but you seem to be basing your entire argument on a few underwhelming ones (specially when you include grille into the equation).. is this to "prove" your point or to make false claims.. I don't really know at this point :amazed:


 

you cant judge a tank purely by its pen value... surely you know they have better camo (well the majority of non T10 ones that you seem to have forgetten about) and can move around more without being spotted unlike an E100 or a JPE100....

I don't think that a few T10 ones mean the entire class is broken...

 

To be honest TD's did have other advantages, which were removed because the HT crew was crying.

If I remember correctly WG nerfed arty and TD's suddenly became the "OP class" so they utterly nerfed them (remember big nerf of Foch, Obj. 263, removal of WTF E100), then as if that wasn't enough they removed their better camo values after firing along with removing 70% of the bushes on maps and making them even more corridor-ish.

A lot of TD's have lost their place in this game, the only ones that are viable nowadays are turreted ones and heavily armored ones with huge alpha guns. I used to play the utter bejeezus out of TD's, but now it's just a pain most of the times. I'm trying to grind my way up to the Strv's just to check the siege mechanic out of curiosity, boy have the times changed for the worse...

EDIT:

Oh and I forgot, they nerfed their view range like there is no tomorrow...

Edited by CrniVrag, 19 February 2018 - 01:35 AM.


Isharial #4 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:39 AM

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View PostCrniVrag, on 19 February 2018 - 01:31 AM, said:

 

To be honest TD's did have other advantages, which were removed because the HT crew was crying.

If I remember correctly WG nerfed arty and TD's suddenly became the "OP class" so they utterly nerfed them (remember big nerf of Foch, Obj. 263, removal of WTF E100), then as if that wasn't enough they removed their better camo values after firing along with removing 70% of the bushes on maps and making them even more corridor-ish.

A lot of TD's have lost their place in this game, the only ones that are viable nowadays are turreted ones and heavily armored ones with huge alpha guns. I used to play the utter bejeezus out of TD's, but now it's just a pain most of the times. I'm trying to grind my way up to the Strv's just to check the siege mechanic out of curiosity, boy have the times changed for the worse...

 

in response to the nerfs, that's from a time long before I came to tanks


 

 

I find many TD's, even ones with no turrets and are not armoured are capable of dishing out damage.. it might be hard, but then again, anything worthwhile doing is.

they just have to abuse a lot of bushes and make sure they are pimped up for camo. there are some TD's that blatantly need buffs (AC 46, looking at you) but others are fine.. does that constitute calling the entire class useless though? can we call mediums useless because of T-34-2? or lights because of stuart? or even heavies because of the 65t? there are bad tanks in every class and im not saying there should be here. its annoying and stupid that there are tanks that are so bad they could be balanced 2 tiers below without a change....


 

but that doesn't mean what the OP says is true


 


 



Homer_J #5 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:45 AM

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View PostBucifel, on 18 February 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

 

Why you need E4 when you have E100 with 2 key ??

 

Show us where the nasty E100 touched you.

 

You aren't really complaining about the most useless premium rounds in the game are you?  Oh you are.



CrniVrag #6 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:45 AM

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View PostIsharial, on 19 February 2018 - 12:39 AM, said:

 

in response to the nerfs, that's from a time long before I came to tanks


 

 

I find many TD's, even ones with no turrets and are not armoured are capable of dishing out damage.. it might be hard, but then again, anything worthwhile doing is.

they just have to abuse a lot of bushes and make sure they are pimped up for camo. there are some TD's that blatantly need buffs (AC 46, looking at you) but others are fine.. does that constitute calling the entire class useless though? can we call mediums useless because of T-34-2? or lights because of stuart? or even heavies because of the 65t? there are bad tanks in every class and im not saying there should be here. its annoying and stupid that there are tanks that are so bad they could be balanced 2 tiers below without a change....


 

but that doesn't mean what the OP says is true


 


 

 

No it doesn't mean they are useless, but before the nerfs all classes were pretty much on par strength wise, now the map design (less bushes, more corridors) favor heavy and medium tanks and you have to play exceptionally well to make a TD work the same way a HT does with half the effort. The times when you could carry games in your turretless are long gone, which is sad because I absolutely loved them... 

dimethylcadmium #7 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:01 AM

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TD's might make a comeback with the new maps, they look "bigger", "flatter" and with more foliage. Time will tell.

 

Unless you're a Skorpion G player. Then you don't really give a ****, because you're driving a pre-nerf Hellcat


Edited by dimethylcadmium, 19 February 2018 - 02:03 AM.


Bucifel #8 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:10 AM

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View PostIsharial, on 19 February 2018 - 01:07 AM, said:

so, forgive me for not understanding your point here, but what exactly are you complaining about? TD or some specific non-td tanks getting close to the same pen? (they have other advantages you know)

Im complaining about BALANCE :)

If you talk ONLY about standard ammo pen...thats right. TDs have advantage exactly how is suposed to be. But...if you press 2 with any other tank (and PAY MORE, of course) this advantage go to any other tank...so let me rework my question :

Whats the role of TDs if ANY tank can get their main advantage by pressing 2 key?? And this OVER all advantages what other class already have !

 

it doesn't "negate an entire class" either

Sure, you wont get fixed gun by pressing 2 key...but you get its penetration ! And you know...other advantages like cammo or armor you ALREADY HAVE on other tanks and with p2w ammo you just win penetration advantage too !


 

many TD are still viable and many are very good.. but you seem to be basing your entire argument on a few underwhelming ones (specially when you include grille into the equation).. is this to "prove" your point or to make false claims.. I don't really know at this point :amazed:

yes, are viable when you refer on standard ammo on all tanks...but what happens when you press 2 key on any other tank?? Wheres TDs pen advantage now??

And about grille...because its not all about penetration and p2w ammo....please explain why fully aimed shot of Grille (wich is one of the best snipers in the game) MISS and a lot of russian tank SNAPSHOTS do damage??

Its about broken mechanic, ruski BIAS and sure...p2w ammo again here.

Take nUDES for example...i MISSED fully aimed shots from 300m and HIT shots with IS from 400m on move...WHY ? (and not only 1 from 100 games ! )


 

you cant judge a tank purely by its pen value... surely you know they have better camo (well the majority of non T10 ones that you seem to have forgetten about) and can move around more without being spotted unlike an E100 or a JPE100....

I don't think that a few T10 ones mean the entire class is broken...

 

They HAD better cammo...when TDs HAD better cammo when they fire...but now...theres nothing different, or INSIGNIFIANT.

And yes, you must judge them by pen value because thats main advantage for TDS ! They are supsed to pen tanks frontally where others CANT. But by pressing 2 key this advantage is NEGATED.

Its for all tiers...i said T10 as example because its easier to see...

 

View PostHomer_J, on 19 February 2018 - 01:45 AM, said:

Show us where the nasty E100 touched you.

 

You aren't really complaining about the most useless premium rounds in the game are you?  Oh you are.

 

yes, its about p2w ammo too and i said it already :

Quote

So yes, its about gold ammo again...and how it negate an ENTIRE tank class in this game this time, not only how it negates armor or skill...or RNG.

 


Edited by Bucifel, 19 February 2018 - 02:26 AM.


Warzey #9 Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:03 AM

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What's the point of TDs? I would say that their purpose is to dispose of red tanks in brutal fashion. 

 

Honestly, it makes no sense to talk about "point" of a class in general, there are many different TDs with different strengths and weaknesses, the same way there are different heavy and medium tanks. 

 

Take T110E3 for example, that thing has more reliable armor than super heavies while at the same time it packs a bigger gun with better penetration and better DPM. Of course it doesn't have a turret and it is fairly slow, but it's really up to the player to make use of tanks strengths while mitigating its weaknesses.

Then there's Strv 103B, insane accuracy, camouflage, shell velocity, dpm and mobility, you don't have any tank in the game that's even remotely as good as 103B at sniping. 

 Obj 268 v4, the newcomer, you don't have any other tank in the game that packs similar combination of mobility and armor. It's true that gun is fairly crap by TD standards but you still have good penetration, you hit harder than most heavies and mediums and you have respectable DPM. 

 

In my opinion it's very ignorant to clam that penetration is the only thing that TDs have over other classes. 

 



Search_Warrant #10 Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:48 AM

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95% of casemate TD's are utter garbage in comparison to turreted ones. SkorpG being a major offender here. they should never have given TD's turrets, it was there weakness and theres alone but WG just went full crayon mode and made WT line which broke the whole class. nobody wants to play a none turreted TD as maps dont allow for sniping anymore, same for LT's . allot of the time TD's and LT's get shafted at the same time when WG changes things.

 

Only viable TD's now are turreted or 750/1k damage boomsticks with stupid ammounts of armor to brawl in current corridor meta.



Simeon85 #11 Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:43 AM

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From what I see in game the point seems to be to camp in base the whole game, watch your team die whilst you sit on full HP, then fire 3-4 shots of damage after the game is already lost as the enemy swarms you, then blame the team for the loss. 

unhappy_bunny #12 Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:47 AM

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Its amazing.

Only the other day there was a thread "I play TD therefore I must camp bush" or similar, started by a player who got ambushed by a bunch od TD's, claiming they were OP and should not be played in a defensive manner.

 

Now we have a thread complaining that TD's are UP because other tanks press "2", and have better view range. 

 

So why, on maps like Provka/Firey Salient do unseen TD's cause the enemy to camp so hard on the 1-2 line? Or do so much damage from hidden positions, if their view range is a disadvantage?

 

OK so pressing "2" might increase a tanks pen, but it doesnt increase its viewrange and allow it to spot an unspotted TD, nor remove the TD's camo.



Gardar7 #13 Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:01 AM

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View PostIsharial, on 18 February 2018 - 10:39 PM, said:

can we call mediums useless because of T-34-2?  its annoying and stupid that there are tanks that are so bad they could be balanced 2 tiers below without a change....

 

I would mention the TVP VTU instead of the T-34-2, as it is there (Skoda T40) on 2 tiers below at tier 6 and it is not even a good tank at that level!



Simeon85 #14 Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:08 AM

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View Postunhappy_bunny, on 19 February 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

Its amazing.

Only the other day there was a thread "I play TD therefore I must camp bush" or similar, started by a player who got ambushed by a bunch od TD's, claiming they were OP and should not be played in a defensive manner.

 

Now we have a thread complaining that TD's are UP because other tanks press "2", and have better view range. 

 

So why, on maps like Provka/Firey Salient do unseen TD's cause the enemy to camp so hard on the 1-2 line? Or do so much damage from hidden positions, if their view range is a disadvantage?

 

OK so pressing "2" might increase a tanks pen, but it doesnt increase its viewrange and allow it to spot an unspotted TD, nor remove the TD's camo.

 

Actually both are effectively true due to poor map design.

 

Most TDs, especially turret less ones and ones without armour, struggle to play anywhere in the middle of the map because most of those areas are congested short range corridors where there is no opportunity for cross fire or support fire without getting wrecked.

 

Whilst at the same time, many maps then give positions on the red line or around the base that are very strong, with bush cover, hard cover, elevation etc. 

 

Fiery/Prohk is a bad example, players there just camp too far back, they camp uselessly on the 1/2 line whilst the game is lost in other areas, even though that is one of the few maps where TDs can actually use lots of spots. 

 

But think of a map like Karelia, you have a big open death zone in the middle, and then two brawling points north and south. It's very hard for TDs to support the heavies on the long corridor in the south, most are not fast enough to challenge for the hill that allows some sniping opportunities. But in base they have elevated positions with good sight lines over large areas of open ground, with hard cover and concealment. 



Geno1isme #15 Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:21 AM

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View PostBucifel, on 19 February 2018 - 01:28 AM, said:

Why you need E4 when you have E100 with 2 key ?? - Situational, AP might be better than HEAT. But yeah, E4 is probably one of the worst T10 tanks right now.

Why you need or want all TDs with fixed guns when you can press 2 key in any other tank and get those TDs advantage on you OVER advantages what you already have on your class?? - More alpha, better DPM, better armor, better gun-handling, better camo, ... depending on the TD in question of course

Why you need Grille FULLY AIMED accuracy when you hit better snapshots with Ruski Tonks???? :facepalm:- because ruski snapshot tanks don't deal 750 alpha

Why you need strong front when enemy press 2, PAY MORE, and damage you anyway?? ( NOT ON WEAKPOINTS !!  JGPZ best example ! ) - JPE has psychologic 170mm armor, just like the British TDs have 183mm of mental armor :justwait:

 

Funny how people claim that TDs are useless when quite a few of them are borderline OP or just broken ...

CrniVrag #16 Posted 19 February 2018 - 03:27 PM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 19 February 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

 

Funny how people claim that TDs are useless when quite a few of them are borderline OP or just broken ...

 

Which ones are borderline OP or broken?

Coldspell #17 Posted 19 February 2018 - 03:43 PM

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I dare say the point of tank destroyers is to destroy tanks but I could be wrong.

Bucifel #18 Posted 19 February 2018 - 03:52 PM

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View PostWarzey, on 19 February 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

What's the point of TDs? I would say that their purpose is to dispose of red tanks in brutal fashion. 

 

Honestly, it makes no sense to talk about "point" of a class in general, there are many different TDs with different strengths and weaknesses, the same way there are different heavy and medium tanks. 

since all works and are designed in same way for their role i think that makes some sense to talk about.

Advantages over OTHER classes should be mostly same, regardless if its a sniper TD, assault TD or turreted one.

Penetration, Camo, gunhandling / accuracy and DPM

 

now i just showed how penetration is negated, cammo is not the case for all because WG nerf, gun and accuracy i just said...how i can miss 3 fully aimed shots with nUDES and hit with IS on the move...and DPM is countered for mostly with lack of turret.

So...still...whats the point of this class?

 

Take T110E3 for example, that thing has more reliable armor than super heavies while at the same time it packs a bigger gun with better penetration and better DPM. Of course it doesn't have a turret and it is fairly slow, but it's really up to the player to make use of tanks strengths while mitigating its weaknesses.

Then there's Strv 103B, insane accuracy, camouflage, shell velocity, dpm and mobility, you don't have any tank in the game that's even remotely as good as 103B at sniping. 

 Obj 268 v4, the newcomer, you don't have any other tank in the game that packs similar combination of mobility and armor. It's true that gun is fairly crap by TD standards but you still have good penetration, you hit harder than most heavies and mediums and you have respectable DPM. 

Sure...lets take best TDs wich are somehow exception from what i say here and say theres no problem with all.

Yes, E3 is STILL good because its armor...but nothing more. Penetration means nothing because all others can just press 2 and reach better pen level than E3s AP...Camo is not the case here...so?

STRV have same accuracy like UDES...andi just said what means accuracy in this game. Penetration same story...just press 2 and get STRV penetration or even better on any tank on this tier. This thing have cammo instead of armor but...for what if your role is to SHOOT and when you shoot you lost your cammo??

 

268 is a fcking broken and p2w abomination wich needs rework..so lets not talk about WGs experiments...

 

After that what about all others wich are NOT best in class like those from above?

Still...Why E4 when E100 with 2 key is here? Why 268?

 

In my opinion it's very ignorant to clam that penetration is the only thing that TDs have over other classes. 

 

 

View Postunhappy_bunny, on 19 February 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

Its amazing.

Only the other day there was a thread "I play TD therefore I must camp bush" or similar, started by a player who got ambushed by a bunch od TD's, claiming they were OP and should not be played in a defensive manner.

 

Now we have a thread complaining that TD's are UP because other tanks press "2", and have better view range. 

i never said thats UP...i just said that are negated by broken mechanics and moronic balance.

Are perfectly fine and exactly how are suposed to be...if we talk WITHOUT p2w factors like ammo. With standard parameters TDs have their advantage stil and can be usefull...but this is completely gone when you get 330+ pen on any tank OVER your normal advantages.

 

So why, on maps like Provka/Firey Salient do unseen TD's cause the enemy to camp so hard on the 1-2 line? Or do so much damage from hidden positions, if their view range is a disadvantage?

because they shoot on others spot..? maybe??

 

OK so pressing "2" might increase a tanks pen, but it doesnt increase its viewrange and allow it to spot an unspotted TD, nor remove the TD's camo.

sure not, but allow you to get his pen advantage while you keep all others.

 

View PostGeno1isme, on 19 February 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

Why you need E4 when you have E100 with 2 key ?? - Situational, AP might be better than HEAT. But yeah, E4 is probably one of the worst T10 tanks right now.  It COULD be situational...but since you simply get MORE pen on some shell type theres nothing situational anymore.

Why you need or want all TDs with fixed guns when you can press 2 key in any other tank and get those TDs advantage on you OVER advantages what you already have on your class?? - More alpha, better DPM, better armor, better gun-handling, better camo, ... depending on the TD in question of course. 

Why you need Grille FULLY AIMED accuracy when you hit better snapshots with Ruski Tonks???? :facepalm:- because ruski snapshot tanks don't deal 750 alpha . No, but deal 650 from last patch and anyway..."best sniper" in this game deal 390 damage not 750

Why you need strong front when enemy press 2, PAY MORE, and damage you anyway?? ( NOT ON WEAKPOINTS !!  JGPZ best example ! ) - JPE has psychologic 170mm armor, just like the British TDs have 183mm of mental armor 

 

Funny how people claim that TDs are useless when quite a few of them are borderline OP or just broken ...

i didnt call them useless. I just try to find their advantages again...

 



Thejagdpanther #19 Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:04 PM

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Maps + camo nerf + view range nerf still play an hard role on tds, specially turretless and less armored one.

 

View Postdimethylcadmium, on 19 February 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

TD's might make a comeback with the new maps, they look "bigger", "flatter" and with more foliage. Time will tell.

 

As this wise man say, let's wait a little, new maps could help.



Geno1isme #20 Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:06 PM

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View PostBucifel, on 19 February 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

i didnt call them useless. I just try to find their advantages again...

 

Again, need to look at each tank individually. As said, often TDs without turret have much better DPM and/or gunhandling than same-tier heavies, and pretty much always more alpha than meds. Take for example the T28 and T95: Their front armor is equal or better than any superheavy at their tier, but their guns are just flat better (even if you ignore the penetration) by a huge margin. Swedish TDs got insane camo and possibilities to relocate, and so on.






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