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Rebalancing options, part 1 : UK


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Zinomov #1 Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:10 PM

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Rebalancing :


Super Conqueror :

-change the dispersion from 0.33 to 0.35

-change the reload time from 8.70 to 10 sec

-change the gun depresion from 10° to 7°

reasons behind these changes :

the tank is over performing at tier 10, it has 10° of gun depresion with space armor covering the frontal turret armor making it impossible to penetrate

if that wasen't enough the fast reload speed of the gun aswell as the great accuracy allows it to do more than just pushing flanks

 

Badger :

-change the dispersion from 0.3 to 0.33

-change the reload time from 8.50 to 10.25 sec

-change the view range from 390 to 380

reasons behind these changes :

this tank is a pure joke, it is simply impossible to go through it frontally, now i know the lower plate is weak, but since the tank has 10° of gun depresion aswell as a wide gun arch, it can sit hulldown and enjoy the sound of ricochets all day long, this cannot be tolerated

more over the DPM of this vehicle isbeyond imagening, we can't let it with such OP stats

 

Conqueror :

-remove the spaced armor from the turret

-change the gun depresion from 10° to 7°

reasons behind these changes :

the historican Conqueror never had that spaced armour on the front, and it dosen't need it in the first place, we want the old turret back, the one without spaced armour

 

Black Prince :

-change the reload time from OQF 17-pdr 5 to 4.50 sec

-change the penetration of the OQF 17-pdr from 171 to 181

reasons behind these changes :

this tank is simply the weakest tier 7 heavy in the entire game

yes it has a strong turret but the hull is an other story

and the gun is simply horrible with 171 mm of pen, for such a slow tank, it needs to be increased a bit


Edited by Zinomov, 20 February 2018 - 11:35 AM.


Grand_Moff_Tano #2 Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:15 PM

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For the Black Prince it might be possible to give it the 20-Pounder Type A, that should be a sufficient buff.

 

Though one of the main rebalances I'd do for the British tech tree is with the Cruiser line



Zinomov #3 Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:54 PM

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has the tank used it ?

cuz when i did my research the black prince only used the 17 pdr



Nazgarth #4 Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:56 PM

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View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

has the tank used it ?

cuz when i did my research the black prince only used the 17 pdr

 

 

Did tiger II ever use a 105?



Grand_Moff_Tano #5 Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:57 PM

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View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

has the tank used it ?

cuz when i did my research the black prince only used the 17 pdr

 

Did the Tiger I or Tiger P use the 8,8cm KwK 43? Was the Firefly, Archer and Achilles equipped with the 17-Pounder Mk. VII? 

Edited by Chipmunk_of_Vengeance, 19 February 2018 - 05:57 PM.


Madjunski #6 Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:34 PM

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Of kor

Edited by Madjunski, 19 February 2018 - 06:38 PM.


Madjunski #7 Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:36 PM

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In case Sergey and Vasily read this... they gonna put 3 more brand new heavy russian tanks. So, better don’t.

VsUK #8 Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:43 PM

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You do realise that some of these changes make the tanks/td's weaker. Meaning they're even more useless than they already are. Like the Badgers apparent 355mm upper frontal armour. That seem's to be penned by everything with a gun.

One thing you missed. They really need to buff the armour significantly of the turrets top gun port. It's what everyone aim's at & there's 0 chance of not penning it or dealing damage & seeing as its on the top right side. Make's it effectively an easy target. 

Edited by VsUK, 19 February 2018 - 06:45 PM.


Celution #9 Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:35 PM

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View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Super Conqueror :

-change the dispersion from 0.33 to 0.36

-change the reload time from 8.70 to 10 sec

reasons behind these changes :

the tank is over performing at tier 10, it has 10° of gun depresion with space armor covering the frontal turret armor making it impossible to penetrate

if that wasen't enough the fast reload speed of the gun aswell as the great accuracy allows it to do more than just pushing flanks

 

So you acknowledge that the problem is the -10° gun depression, as it gives the vehicle way too much flexibility as it grants the ability to hide all weakspots (cupola, lower glacis). But then your solution is to butcher the gun rate of fire and dispersion? Congratulations you can apply for a job at the wargaming balancing department - as instead of fixing the actual problem you change a parameter that isn't causing the vehicle to overperform. Basically by applying your suggested changes, the tank will still be an impenetrable fortress, but now dealing damage more slowly and slighly less efficient at range. Yes, the Super Conqueror is overperforming, but let us fix the actual problem instead of ruining the great accuracy - which is a trademark of the British nation in World of Tanks.

 

Super Conqueror:

  • 120 mm L1A1 characteristics for the Conqueror "unorthodox" ABP turret are changed:
    • gun elevation angle: 15°
    • gun depression angle: -7° (+3)
    • dispersion at 100 m: 0.33
    • reload time: 9.3 s (+0.6)
    • rate of fire: 6.45 rounds/min (-0.45)
    • aiming time: 2 s
    • gun dispersion on movement increased by 16%. (from 0.12 to 0.14, or +0.02)
    • gun dispersion on hull traverse increased by 16%. (from 0.12 to 0.14, or +0.02)

 

 

View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Badger :

-change the dispersion from 0.3 to 0.33

-change the reload time from 8.50 to 10.25 sec

-change the view range from 390 to 380

reasons behind these changes :

this tank is a pure joke, it is simply impossible to go through it frontally, now i know the lower plate is weak, but since the tank has 10° of gun depresion aswell as a wide gun arch, it can sit hulldown and enjoy the sound of ricochets all day long, this cannot be tolerated

more over the DPM of this vehicle isbeyond imagening, we can't let it with such OP stats

 

Once again, the problem with the Badger lies in the fact that the lower glacis is too strong. More specifically, the left and right parts of the lower glacis that have 260-270 mm effective thickness. A simple fix would be to equalise the entire lower glacis to match the center part, which is 171.5 mm in thickness, making it roughly 230 mm in effective thickness. I fully agree on the view range reduction, but butchering the gun like that is just too much for a turretless TD that has poor mobility, low alpha and rather low penetration. The proposed accuracy nerf is also too much in my eyes, and could be 0.31 instead of the current 0.3.

 

View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Conqueror :

-remove the spaced armor from the turret

reasons behind these changes :

the historican Conqueror never had that spaced armour on the front, and it dosen't need it in the first place, we want the old turret back, the one without spaced armour

 

While I tend to agree to this, I think the Conqueror has more problems, mainly being the fact that the stock turret, that historically housed the 120 mm L1A1 main gun, is unable to do so. Thus making the grind an utter pain. If you were to remove the ABP turret, one should introduce the Caernarvon turret as stock turret, and moving the current Mk. II turret as upgrade, thus retaining the painful grind. I therefore can live with the ABP turret being the upgrade, but the following changes should be done:

 

Conqueror:

  • Moved the 120 mm L1A1 research location in between the Conqueror Mk. II and Conqueror Mk. II ABP turrets.
  • 120 mm L1A1 characteristics for the Conqueror Mk. II turret are as follows:
    • gun elevation angle: 15 degrees
    • gun depression angle: -7 degrees
    • dispersion at 100 m: 0.37
    • reload time: 11.3 s
    • rate of fire: 5.31 rounds/min
    • aiming time: 2.4 s
    • Dispersion on movement: 0.17
    • Dispersion on hull traverse: 0.17
    • Dispersion on turret traverse: 0.10
  • 120 mm L1A1 characteristics for the Conqueror Mk. II ABP turret changed:
    • gun elevation angle: 15 degrees
    • gun depression angle: -7 degrees (+3)
    • dispersion at 100 m: 0.35 (+0.02)
    • reload time: 11 s (-0.3 s)
    • rate of fire: 5.45 rounds/min (+0.14)
    • aiming time: 2.2 s (+0.3 s)
    • Dispersion on movement increased by 25%. (from 0.12 to 0.15, or +0.03)
    • Dispersion on hull traverse increased by 25%. (from 0.12 to 0.15, or +0.03)

 

View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Black Prince :

-change the reload time from OQF 17-pdr 5 to 4.50 sec

-change the penetration of the OQF 17-pdr from 171 to 181

reasons behind these changes :

this tank is simply the weakest tier 7 heavy in the entire game

yes it has a strong turret but the hull is an other story

and the gun is simply horrible with 171 mm of pen, for such a slow tank, it needs to be increased a bit

 

The Black Prince is a more difficult situation, since it has such a poorly performing platform. The vehicle is slow and sluggish and this can't really be influenced, as the armour is actually rather decent at tier 7 if we do not count premium ammunition. In general, I think that rapid-firing peashooters like the ones featured on most mid tier tanks are poor design choices for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is actually really difficult to put your theoretical dpm to practice. Secondly, it's generally not fun to get peppered or perma-tracked by such a gun. Thirdly, the performance of such guns is questionable as the game usually resolves around not exposing yourself for extensive periods of times - which is not possible if you reload in mere seconds while forced to remain stationary as mid-tier dispersion values usually don't allow for successive snapshotting.

 

That said, the Black Prince has all these problems as well as the basic ones - the ones that you mentioned. Low DPM and penetration. The more hidden/complicated problems are the really bad dispersion values combined with low alpha damage, average hit points and just an overall poor platform, where the vehicle may be detracked frontally while also dealing damage.

 

While your buff to the reload time is quick and easy, I would actually propose a couple of changes:

 

Black Prince:

  • Hitpoints increased from 1450 to 1500 (+50).
  • Removed the OQF 77 mm Gun Mk. II.
  • Added the 17-pdr Gun Mk. VI as default (stock) gun, characteristics are as follows:
    • gun elevation angle: 20°
    • gun depression angle: -8°
    • dispersion at 100 m: 0.36 (+0.2)
    • damage: 150/150/190
    • reload time: 4.7 s (-0.3)
    • rate of fire: 12.77 rounds/min
    • penetration: 171/229 (-10)/38
    • aiming time: 2.3 s
    • gun dispersion during movement: 0.18 (+0.02)
    • gun dispersion on hull traverse: 0.18 (+0.02)
    • gun dispersion on turret traverse: 0.16 (-0.04)
  • OQF 17-pdr Gun Mk. VII characteristics changed:
    • gun elevation angle: 20°
    • gun depression angle: -8°
    • dispersion at 100 m: 0.34
    • damage: 170/170/220
    • reload time: 5 s
    • rate of fire: 12 rounds/min
    • penetration: 191/239/38
    • aiming time: 2.1 s
    • gun dispersion during movement: 0.16
    • gun dispersion on hull traverse: 0.16
    • gun dispersion on turret traverse: 0.14

 

Followed with these changes, we need to adjust some tanks that feature the current OQF 17-pdr Gun Mk. VII (Centurion Mk. I, Sherman Firefly, Caernarvon, AT 15, Challenger, Archer, AT 8, Achilles, AT 7). Some should simply have it redesignated to the new Mk. VI with no changes applied besides the nerf to the APCR penetration, and others should have the Mk. VII changes applied as well as introducing the new Mk. VI with other adjustments - but that's for a different topic.



rsanders5 #10 Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:17 PM

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 Or simply leave them alone, it makes a nice change to have

effective tanks in the British tech tree



Thuis001 #11 Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:49 PM

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How about adding an actual weakspot to the top of the S.Conq, while returning the Conq to how it was before the changes. (exept for the stock gun) The Badger needs a weakspot aswell. Besides that if anything the British techtree needs more buffs than nerfs. The BP, and the two tanks before it are kinda hard to balance given that they are quite poor platforms which are outclassed in both armor and mobility by the anime tanks. The Churchill VII should atleast get the 17pdr, besides that the BP would need a bigger gun, even 170dmg isn't really much at that tier thus making you vulnerable to getting rushed. Besides that it is again a poor platform. Some other buffs could be gunhandling to British meds, which is for some stupid reason extremely bad. (take a look at tanks.gg) and hopefully a British Light Tank branch in the future.

Beltalowda #12 Posted 19 February 2018 - 11:37 PM

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View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

Rebalancing :


 

 

I admire your enthusiasm. 

 

We hardly see moderators on this forum, so what makes you think they'll either pass on your suggestions or even read the whole damn thing ? Sorry to disappoint you, but this is not gonna happen. 

 

This forum is like a communism it's all about hope. When you are in a police car on the way to a station you hope they won't beat you much, then you get a few punches and lose a few teeth. Then you start hoping they won't break your arm or something and they do break your arm and some other bones with it. Then you start hoping you won't get shot to death and they do put you against the wall and kill you. See, it's all about hope, but hope is a dangerous thing, especially when it comes to WG and their balancing changes.



Homer_J #13 Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:02 AM

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View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

has the tank used it ?

cuz when i did my research the black prince only used the 17 pdr

 

As long as it's a researchable component then it doesn't matter.  105mm gun in a Pz IV turret?  No problem!

Strizi #14 Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:24 AM

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For Super Conqueror: Reduction of DPM and depression should do the trick (Hopefully), For Badger: Viewrange for tds should be reduced across the board and nerf the lower plate and it should be ok. It will still be a stupid tank nobody wants to face but what can you do, Wargaming loves stupid tanks like this. :popcorn:

Edited by Strizi, 20 February 2018 - 12:24 AM.


TankkiPoju #15 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:22 AM

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So basically you want to make Super Conqueror into a literally worse tier 9 Conqueror. After your changes Conqueror would have almost as good DPM, it would be more agile and faster, and have also better gun. The armor would be basically the same, it's not like Conqueror has it bad.

 

Why would you nerf tier 10s and let tier 9s be so much more powerful, when tier 9s also get much better MM.


Edited by TankkiPoju, 20 February 2018 - 08:23 AM.


Hedgehog1963 #16 Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:31 AM

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Another trash thread.

Edited by Hedgehog1963, 20 February 2018 - 09:32 AM.


mortalsatsuma #17 Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:53 AM

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View PostZinomov, on 19 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Rebalancing :

 

*Snip*

 

Conqueror :

-remove the spaced armor from the turret

reasons behind these changes :

the historican Conqueror never had that spaced armour on the front, and it dosen't need it in the first place, we want the old turret back, the one without spaced armour

 

Citing historical reasons, when talking about this game, as to why the Conqueror should have its armour nerfed. LOL. Also, please define 'we'.



TheWarrener #18 Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:59 AM

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How about you give SC 7* of GD back instead of destroying it's trademark, an accurate gun? 

thestaggy #19 Posted 20 February 2018 - 10:16 AM

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To my knowledge the Conqueror was designed as a long-range support tank, intended to engage the new generation of Soviet tanks outside their own effective range. Nerfing their accuracy makes zero sense in this regard.

Zinomov #20 Posted 20 February 2018 - 11:35 AM

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game is not reality bruh




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