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Roflstomps a symptom of increased Mobility and increased DPM, Stun mechanic an enabler.


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TheOddRogue #1 Posted 20 February 2018 - 06:29 PM

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I think roflstomps, fast battles with fast loss/win, is a symptom of the increase in general mobility of tanks since the games start but also with the recent rampant increases to DPM of tanks. I also believe the arty stun mechanic is a catalyzer of this symptom. 

 

Increased mobility means tanks will reach their flanks sooner and the engagements will begin quicker and the proceeding pushes/repositionings will happen faster. Increased mobility also enables over-running opponents more efficiently, especially if they are outnumbered. All this increased the pace of gameplay. In my opinion the increased level of mobility is a good thing and it has made the game more enjoyable for me, but it should not go beyond the level that it is at now. 

 

I think the ramping up of DPMs is the main culprit for roflstomps. Tanks will just chew through each other faster and die faster. Rampant DPM increase also creates a major gap in performance of a good and a bad player, the good player will be able to utilize the DPM, the bad player cannot. Also not all tanks have the DPM advantage, it's usually the newer "powercreepers" who have the highest dpm, the old and now powercreeped tanks cannot compete with the DPM of the new ones. Imagine a flank where 5 tanks on each team are engaging, the five on one team has more skilled players and most of them have newly released powercreepers, the five on the other team are not up to par skillwise and have older tanks. These situations are what causes roflstomps. And after that flank falls and new powercreeped tanks will go and chew through the rest of the enemy while their trying to fend of their own flanks. It's a chain reaction of clusterfuck. 

 

It doesn't help that arty is stunning the older tanks, and even further decreasing their effective dpm which is already crap. Artillery just exacerbates the situations in which roflstomps occur. It adds another factor for creating roflstomps. 

 

In my opinion this mainly a problem with tier 10 since all new tanks there just have better DPM then any tanks before, look at wz-115A, super conqueror and compare them to IS-7, E5. 



Jigabachi #2 Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:06 PM

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Long story short: Powercreep.

Erwin_Von_Braun #3 Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:07 PM

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Possibly, yes.

However you haven't factored XVM into your equations - there are a good many players who will just roll over & die just because xvm has already told them that they will lose.:(



vasilinhorulezz #4 Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:16 PM

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In my opinion it's probably because of powercreep and 3/5/7 template.

Most of the times one team loses their top tiers early, and the enemy top tiers just farm the rest.

An other reason could be map awareness/tactics,

there have been a lot of games where you notice people don't know or even don't want to fight for key locations on a map,

and as a result enemy takes control of those without or minimal resistance.



pathed91 #5 Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:17 PM

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On the mobility I agree, however I think that dpm is not as important at higher tiers compared to lower tiers due to players learn (in most cases) not to sit in the open and let you shoot them more than twice. The stun mechanic seems irrelevant to the problem of roflstomps when arty so often hunt lightly armored tanks to get more damaged instead of supporting the heavy flank.

 

I find it more likely that it's due to:

 

  • Armored tanks getting both no weakspots and increased mobility without any drawbacks
  • 3/5/7 matchmaking where if the top tiers in one team dies early the rest of the team has few to no options in stopping them from rolling over the rest of the team  

Edited by pathed91, 20 February 2018 - 07:18 PM.


L0ddy #6 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:10 PM

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Restore arty to its former glory and your "roflstomps" will be fixed ;)

Thuis001 #7 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:23 PM

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While arty will indeed speedup ROFL-stomps, this isn't the most important one. The 3/5/7 template is. Too often I see the top tier tanks of one team just swoop up half the enemy team or more, besides that it seems that most of the time one of the teams gets most of the skilled players thus causing the other team to just fail and die in a couple of minutes. Since there are only 3 top tier players this means that if 1 or 2 are bad that team will have a REALLY large disadvantage. Add to this the large difference between the tiers and yeah, you can see what causes a lot of those stomps.



pathed91 #8 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:23 PM

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View PostL0ddy, on 20 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

Restore arty to its former glory and your "roflstomps" will be fixed ;)

 



Junglist_ #9 Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:50 PM

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I disagree with what you're saying about DPM. You describe it as a rampant increase but then mention only 2 tier 10 tanks and S. Conq has the same DPM as FV215b it replaced. And IS-7 after the buffs is a very good tank. Other than that the newly released tanks like 268 v4, 705s, 430u do not have stellar DPM. And last year it was about armor buffs not DPM buffs.

Either way in my opinion DPM has nothing to do with roflstomps. Not sure if I've even noticed any increase but when there is one I usually blame it either on bad map design where one spawn has an advantage (Swamp for example) and terrible tank balance on higher tiers. Leo, E5 and E4 as top tiers vs 268v4, Type 5 and 907 on the other and it's over quickly. Especially on tiny maps like Mines, Ensk or Kharkov.

Plus the usual reason of roflstomps which is the snowball effect.



Bordhaw #10 Posted 20 February 2018 - 11:47 PM

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View PostTheOddRogue, on 20 February 2018 - 05:29 PM, said:

I think roflstomps, fast battles with fast loss/win, is a symptom of the increase in general mobility of tanks since the games start but also with the recent rampant increases to DPM of tanks. I also believe the arty stun mechanic is a catalyzer of this symptom. 

 

 

It is since light tanks became a class of they own and can sometimes make up 6 tanks per team. 



Geno1isme #11 Posted 21 February 2018 - 10:46 AM

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It's probably the opposite actually: The increase of idiot-proof amor models, combined with broken-by-design template matchmaking. What's the point of having DPM if you just cannot reliably damage the enemy? Tanks like Type 5 or the new 268v4 or 705A have rather bad DPM yet can crush a complete flank just with their presence as nobody wants to trade shots with them for obvious reasons.

 

Sometime last year I wrote a little (very simple) WoT match simulator to test a few things. One of the results was that if you reduce the average chance to do damage at an enemy then the outcome became more one-sided as it increased the impact of RNG.



Simeon85 #12 Posted 21 February 2018 - 11:09 AM

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Are there more ROFL stomps? anecdotally I'd say yes, but not seen any data on it.

 

Also are there more ROFL stomps at lower tiers? Cos the DPM/alpha to HP ratio there is far more out of whack than it is at higher tiers. There are mediums/TDs on tier 5/6 that have 2k DPM whilst the heavies have like 700-900 hit points at that tier, whilst tier 10 medium has like 3k DPM but most of the heavies have like 2.4-2.6k HP.  So on tiers 5/6 you could chew through a same tier heavy tank in about 15-20s, but you'd need more like 40-50s at tier 10. 

 

You say new tier 10 tanks but Super Conqueror has same DPM 215b had, 268v4 has less DPM than 263 had, 430U has less DPM than 430 had, 705A doesn't have high DPM, WZ-111-5A has similar DPM to 113. 

 

Is there increased mobility? Seems we are getting more and more armoured tanks and most of them don't have great mobility, plus where is there to flank? Most maps are protected corridors were people slug it out head on, rushing to these spots in a medium gains you very little. 

 

If there are more one sided games I'd reckon it is because of a multitude of reasons but I'd pick -

 

  • 3-5-7 template MM, as the team's power is concentrated in less tanks at the top so losing 1-2 of these tanks can very quickly sway a game to one team. 
  • Overall a poorer playerbase, the game's learning curve is less harsh, players aren't being taught important skills, poor map design just coddles people into playing one way and they then fail when they are challenged outside of that limited playsyle. Good players have left so you are left with more average and bad players. 


Dehtre #13 Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:22 PM

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I believe this is the biggest problem with current MM template system, especially 3-5-7. The small number of top tier players means that single player can greatly influence the battle outcome. Add to that skill disparity or simply tank/map mismatch and you get quick game with score 15-5 or better.

 

In my opinion, to fix this you would have to change the templates:

  • 3-5-7 should become something like 5-5-5 or even 7-4-4
  • 5-10 should be more like 7-8

 

This should:

  • increase HP amount in battle
  • make players less influential in the battle
  • make players top tier more often

 

All of the above combined would extend the average battle length and make one-sided battles less frequent.


Edited by Dehtre, 21 February 2018 - 01:24 PM.


BicycleOfDeath #14 Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:53 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 20 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

In my opinion it's probably because of powercreep and 3/5/7 template.

Most of the times one team loses their top tiers early, and the enemy top tiers just farm the rest.

An other reason could be map awareness/tactics,

there have been a lot of games where you notice people don't know or even don't want to fight for key locations on a map,

and as a result enemy takes control of those without or minimal resistance.

 

I agree with this, and I think the key map locations issue seems to be happening a whole lot. Partly that's due to map design/balancing but really a lot due to bad knowledge among players. Paris is an easy example of this. From the west spawn, taking the low road and especially the rubble pile at K5 is key to holding that flank down. But a great deal of players will stay on the top bridge or even stop at J4 to shoot up the middle. Pretty much every time this happens it's a roflstomp autoloss.

 

I wonder how much of that is related to pre-9.18 arty players moving into other tank classes now that they can't oneshot anymore.

 



tankqull #15 Posted 21 February 2018 - 02:05 PM

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View PostDehtre, on 21 February 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

I believe this is the biggest problem with current MM template system, especially 3-5-7. The small number of top tier players means that single player can greatly influence the battle outcome. Add to that skill disparity or simply tank/map mismatch and you get quick game with score 15-5 or better.

 

In my opinion, to fix this you would have to change the templates:

  • 3-5-7 should become something like 5-5-5 or even 7-4-4
  • 5-10 should be more like 7-8

 

This should:

  • increase HP amount in battle
  • make players less influential in the battle
  • make players top tier more often

 

All of the above combined would extend the average battle length and make one-sided battles less frequent.

 

this, would love to see just for a month testwise to turn the template upsidedown and make it 7-5-3 shouldnt be that hard to do...

and see how it would feel.






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