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Premium ammo and the mess it creates

Premium Ammo

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Poll: Premium Ammo "Fix" (49 members have cast votes)

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Do you think this sort of change has potential?

  1. Yes, with some tweaks and adjustments this could be viable. (19 votes [38.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.78%

  2. No, we need to look for a different solution. (8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  3. There is no problem with premium ammo. (22 votes [44.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 44.90%

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megamaker #1 Posted 25 February 2018 - 10:51 PM

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Premium ammo or "Gold" is not in a good place at the moment, I think most people can agree on that.

 

  • It's overused and often just a substitute for skill, an example of this is when it is used to shoot through the upper plate of angled heavily armoured vehicles.  
  • Equally it is sometimes simply necessary, for example when it comes to penetrating the Type 5 Heavy frontally you don't have many options, this epidemic of tanks being introduced with no frontal weak spots has been around for a while (see the Chrysler K).  
  • And some times it's just been poorly conceived, the prime example being the Type 5's premium ammo that quite literally just makes it deal more damage.

 

The issues arise when you begin to offer solutions, inevitably someone will find some sort of flaw in that system, either for a potential future iteration of the game, or the current iteration. As I think it's fairly safe to assume that there will never be a perfect solution, we should work on the basis of finding one that is the most agreeable and requires the least upheaval when it comes to established gameplay. 

 

The "solutions" that I have heard before are: 

  • Remove it, it's dumb and stuff and it's not healthy for the game and... stuff...
  • Nerf the penetration values of premium ammo
  • Increase the cost of premium ammo, make it massively expensive and cost inefficient
  • Nerf the damage of premium ammo, make it so that the added penetration comes at a cost to alpha damage
  • Limit the ammo capacity for premium rounds to 5/10/20/25%
  • Give premium ammo a nerf to one/some/all of its soft stats, shell velocity, accuracy, damage range etc.

 

To understand why none of these have been implemented we must focus on when they would fail rather than when they would succeed.

"Remove it, it's dumb and stuff and it's not healthy for the game and... stuff..." - Premium ammo is an established concept that many players have bought into using in-game and real world currency, removing it entirely is no longer an option.

"Nerf the penetration values of premium ammo" - Nerfing premium penetration provides a solution on the surface however you would still be faced with the undeniable existence of gold spam, also some vehicles (such as the IS-6 and T32 rely heavily on premium ammo to remain viable), a blanket nerf would only damage the game.

"Increase the cost of premium ammo, make it massively expensive and cost inefficient" - There is a reason premium ammo is so commonly known as gold, it was initially only available for purchase with gold which was often only available for real money. By increasing the cost of premium ammo you give already established players who don't need to worry about saving up for the next tank a distinct advantage, on top of this it makes the game pay to win (some would argue it already has, particularly with the power creep of premiums) because to afford the premium ammo you would need to buy premium account time and/or a premium vehicle.

"Nerf the damage of premium ammo, make it so that the added penetration comes at a cost to alpha damage" - Once again, this would only hurt the game. Tanks such as the T32 and IS-6 have a genuine need for premium ammo to remain competitive, if you reduce the damage of premium rounds it would make half a dozen tanks or more completely irrelevant at their tiers (though this still does not excuse the logic behind the Type 5).

"Limit the ammo capacity for premium rounds to 5/10/20/25%" - I feel like I'm living Groundhog Day, it would only hurt the game, some tanks genuinely need premium ammo to remain viable, limiting it creates more problems than it solves.

"Give premium ammo a nerf to one/some/all of the following, shell velocity, accuracy, damage range etc." - This just doesn't address the problem which is that it would still be spammed in close quarters.

 

Now we have to think about it, when confronting this task, which hurdles are the hardest to jump? Certainly the dominance of super heavies such as the Type 5 are a massive problem, they are unbalanced turds without frontal weaknesses. Speaking of turds the Type 5's broken premium ammo is in dire need of a redesign. The dependence on premium ammo from some of the seemingly forgotten tanks of old (IS-6, T32...) is another issue. The sheer amount of premium ammo in circulation would make it impossible to remove. 

 

Given that no real solution has been offered up yet, I'd like to suggest my own. By the way, before explaining my idea it is best to note that I fully expect it to be shot down, but I'd rather have a productive dialogue that might inspire someone to come up with a better solution than simply a shouting match.

 

My solution is a penetration tax, it sounds weird at first but hear me out, it works off the basis of angles. I think a reasonable solution to the problem would be to do a blanket tax on penetration as the surface it hits becomes more angled. Ie not only does the armour get thicker but the penetration decreases. This would hopefully be modelled by an exponential similar to y=0.97^x where 0<=x<=8 and x represents the angle of the armour. Unless something has changed since I last checked the auto ricochet for AP and APCR was 70 degrees and for HEAT it was 80 degrees. X would be derived from the angle of the armour divided by 10, as anything past 8 automatically ricochets anyway we can ignore anything beyond 8 and as you can't have a negative angle we can ignore anything prior to 0 too. For the purpose of this application Y represents the coefficient attached to the average penetration value of the shell.

 

Let us for example look at the JagdPz E100's premium round that has 420mm of HEAT penetration. At a flat angle of 0 degrees the mean penetration of the shell remains at 420mm, however if it hits armour angled at 50 degrees its penetration dips to (0.859*420) roughly 361mm of penetration, still significantly more effective than its standard 299mm of penetration. However as the angle of the armour it hits increases, the penetration decreases even more rapidly. In this case if you hit the armour at the maximum of 80 degrees you would only have (0.784*420) roughly 329mm of penetration.

 

To ensure that this does not overly decrease the effective penetration of premium rounds for tanks with low base penetrations I used the T32 as an example. It uses an APCR premium round with 245mm of penetration. At a flat angle of 0 degrees the mean penetration remains at 245mm, however at 50 degrees it drops to 210 and at 70 degrees it reverts to the standard penetration of 198mm.

 

If it was decided that this was too low, the base penetration of the rounds could be increased or you could change the function from y=0.97^x to something like y=0.98^x where the T32's premium ammo has 212mm of penetration at 70 degrees. 

 

It's not a perfect solution, it's probably not even a good one, but it addresses more of the issues that premium ammo has caused than most other solutions I have seen. It simultaneously means that an experienced player can angle a heavy well enough that premium shells will not just go through the upper plate, but also that if the super heavy fails to cover a flat, weak section of the tank (such as its cheeks) you can punish them for this. Overall it means that when using premium ammo, you would be forced to aim for weak spots, but if you did you would not lose the effectiveness of it. On top of this it does not make premium ammunition inaccessible to those who do not have a large amount of credits, however it would only be effective when used and aimed properly.

 

Any feedback on this idea is more than welcome, particularly if it comes with a suggestion or improvement; as said before, I'm looking for a genuine way to make the game more enjoyable, not to start a flame war.

 

 

 

 



Enforcer1975 #2 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:10 PM

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"Gold ammo" is not a substitute for skill. It just makes it easier for those who don't know where to pen a tank to pen it although it is no guarantee they will thanks to game mechanics ( autobounce, overmatch, normalization etc )

 

Skill is something you build up and and improve on, not something you get at the tap of a button. If you pen most tanks you see because you spam premium ammo it won't make you a better player because you think you are doing the right thing and never see a reason to improve. 


Edited by Enforcer1975, 25 February 2018 - 11:12 PM.


megamaker #3 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:11 PM

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BTW, when using the poll please try to explain why you chose the answer you did, ie if you think that gold ammo is fine as it is, please respond to some of the examples given, if you can see a reason why this suggestion would not work, please state it etc.

Erwin_Von_Braun #4 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:13 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 25 February 2018 - 10:10 PM, said:

"Gold ammo" is not a substitute for skill. It just makes it easier for those who don't know where to pen a tank to pen it although it is no guarantee they will thanks to game mechanics ( autobounce, overmatch, normalization etc )

 

Skill is something you build up and and improve on, not something you get at the tap of a button.

 

Skill can, however, be downloaded in the form of various aimbot mods - takes the worry out of all that pesky aiming stuff;)

megamaker #5 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:15 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 25 February 2018 - 10:10 PM, said:

"Gold ammo" is not a substitute for skill. It just makes it easier for those who don't know where to pen a tank to pen it 

 

That sounds like a substitute to me. It's basically just if i don't know where to aim,  i press 2 



Dava_117 #6 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:20 PM

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This solution is intresting. We just need to explain this fenomenon, but may be an idea.

MarcoStrapone #7 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:27 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 25 February 2018 - 10:10 PM, said:

"Gold ammo" is not a substitute for skill. It just makes it easier for those who don't know where to pen a tank to pen it although it is no guarantee they will thanks to game mechanics ( autobounce, overmatch, normalization etc )

 

Skill is something you build up and and improve on, not something you get at the tap of a button. If you pen most tanks you see because you spam premium ammo it won't make you a better player because you think you are doing the right thing and never see a reason to improve.

 

at this battle 19 shells x 5400 = 102600 credits.

shot_043.jpg

i would suugest not prem for gold , but will triple the cost of the shell for credit, 19 x 16200 = 307800.



wsatnutter #8 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:27 PM

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No

Erwin_Von_Braun #9 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:29 PM

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View Postwsatnutter, on 25 February 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

No

 

Direct & to the point, but sir has forgotten the full STOP.

:trollface:


Edited by Erwin_Von_Braun, 25 February 2018 - 11:29 PM.


megamaker #10 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:34 PM

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View PostMarcoStrapone, on 25 February 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

i would suugest not prem for gold , but will triple the cost of the shell for credit, 19 x 16200 = 307800.

Sadly this would not work due to the reason stated above. 



MarcoStrapone #11 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:36 PM

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View Postmegamaker, on 25 February 2018 - 10:34 PM, said:

Sadly this would not work due to the reason stated above.

 

what it is?

megamaker #12 Posted 25 February 2018 - 11:42 PM

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View Postmegamaker, on 25 February 2018 - 09:51 PM, said:

"Increase the cost of premium ammo, make it massively expensive and cost inefficient" - There is a reason premium ammo is so commonly known as gold, it was initially only available for purchase with gold which was often only available for real money. By increasing the cost of premium ammo you give already established players who don't need to worry about saving up for the next tank a distinct advantage, on top of this it makes the game pay to win (some would argue it already has, particularly with the power creep of premiums) because to afford the premium ammo you would need to buy premium account time and/or a premium vehicle.

 



Enforcer1975 #13 Posted 26 February 2018 - 12:03 AM

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View Postmegamaker, on 25 February 2018 - 11:15 PM, said:

 

That sounds like a substitute to me. It's basically just if i don't know where to aim,  i press 2 

 

Absolutely not because when you are so used to pressing skill every time you encounter an enemy you couldn't pen with the first or second shot and you encounter a tank you can't pen anywhere from the front even with premium ammo what do you do when you have never learned to use other options? You sit there frozen to death because you don't know what to do. I do agree that many new (super)heavies need premium ammo to be penned but you don't need premium ammo on the majority of them especially when you are top tier. There has to be some drawback when you spam it...it can only work with the price like f.e. 100% 110% 120% 130% 140% 150% +10% for every consecutive shot maybe modify the cost when you are bottom tier. This way you can still spam a few every other game. 

Edited by Enforcer1975, 26 February 2018 - 12:05 AM.


Enforcer1975 #14 Posted 26 February 2018 - 12:07 AM

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View PostMarcoStrapone, on 25 February 2018 - 11:27 PM, said:

 

at this battle 19 shells x 5400 = 102600 credits.

shot_043.jpg

i would suugest not prem for gold , but will triple the cost of the shell for credit, 19 x 16200 = 307800.

 

Well...driving a bunker like that encourages gold spam. I don't feel too sorry for those players. 

megamaker #15 Posted 26 February 2018 - 12:07 AM

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I could be wrong but it really sounds like you're agreeing with me

Aikl #16 Posted 26 February 2018 - 01:05 AM

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11Not a bad idea, or so it seems at a glance. Too tired to give much more thought on it, but I'll take a second to give some advice on the post itself (if you're interested). There's too much text. Consider putting the background stuff in spoilers to make it a bit more 'digestible'.

Also, keep a post to one problem to avoid side-tracking. Mentioning the Type 5 is a bad idea, for instance. Consider ignoring it unless you have to mention it. For what it's worth - if the armor wasn't effectively without weakspots and laughably good, it would be a very nice counter to the ultra-passive gameplay we see on many maps. A Type 5 is a good counter to what many deem the primary goal of this game - 'taking a good position'. Too bad the Type's also really good at being what it also counters.

 

Suggestions tend to need some 'fleshing out'. The proposed mechanic is explained well, but after reading I have little idea about how this will actually work out in the game.

First off, why do you feel the need to adjust premium ammo behaviour only for angled surfaces? Second, how will this work out in-game? You need some 'outline' for how this will improve the game and solve the problem you've described.

I suggest creating some scenarioes with different tanks to explain how this idea will actually work out.

 

Actually, after giving it some thought, I'm not entirely convinced this will have much of an impact beyond e.g. T110E3s penning a Maus' upper frontal plate with APCR - and it will require a lot of rework if you want T9s to have some chance at penning a Maus' angled lower plate.


Edited by Aikl, 26 February 2018 - 01:07 AM.


vixu #17 Posted 26 February 2018 - 07:37 AM

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Many skilled players will argue, that touching prem ammo is a dumb idea, cause they can do without it just as good. And that skill ammo is simply making the game better as it makes up for other game's design problems. While that argument is generally a contradiction, which comes down to a simple fact that they don't care about the magic ammo as long as normal ammo would be able to do as good against any armored target, cause *** forbid to have a vehicle in the game which you have to flank to penetrate (which makes lots of sense, right?) 
 

The best solution imho would be to have a test run for separate servers configuration:

EU1 - server with gold ammo and w/o arty
EU2 - server w/o gold ammo (or perhaps with very limited load such as 1/5 of own HP pool)

And just to compare the statistics. This approach would still allow players to play in their preferred game setting.



MarcoStrapone #18 Posted 26 February 2018 - 08:19 AM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 25 February 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

 

Well...driving a bunker like that encourages gold spam. I don't feel too sorry for those players.

 

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM YOU RIGHT!

shot_045.jpg

 


Edited by MarcoStrapone, 26 February 2018 - 08:21 AM.


LordMuffin #19 Posted 26 February 2018 - 08:58 AM

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No, I don't think this will work, n or that it is good.

Problem with premium ammo is not only the Penetration and how that works, but it also lies in the economy of the game, and what premium ammo does to it.

 

I think a removal of premium ammo combined with an armour rebalance on all tanks remade or released during the latest 18 months (+Jap heavies) is the best and most healthy way to go for the game.

Con:
It will bring less income to WG, so it won't happen.


Edited by LordMuffin, 26 February 2018 - 09:01 AM.


PurplePayload75 #20 Posted 26 February 2018 - 09:17 AM

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One thing that was not suggested was the use of disincentives for using Premium ammo.  You could simply give more xp/credits to players who are on the receiving end and give less xp/credits to players who use it.  That way if you spam premium ammo you have a much harder time being at the top of the leaderboard and would incent those who want to be at the top to play with non-premium ammo.  This would have an a big impact in Ranked battles where xp rank is more critical.

 

This does not preclude the need to re-balance some tanks (type 5, etc.). 







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