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is the tier 10 italian tank a europanzer/standardpanzer? (pictures comparison)

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CamperKaempfer #1 Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:25 PM

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by the way, by standardpanzer i don't mean the e-50 or e-50m. standardpanzer is also a common name for hte europanzer

 

the tier 9 is identical to hte leopard prototype by kraus maffei. picture right below. the uploaded pictures are the tier 10 and the standardpanzer

FaTTvUJ.jpg

Prototipo Standard B

Attached Files

  • Attached File   europanzer.jpg   54.85K
  • Attached File   progetto_m40_mod_65_4_1024x.jpg   240.49K

Edited by CamperKaempfer, 10 March 2018 - 05:23 PM.


Nishi_Kinuyo #2 Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:33 PM

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Doesn't seem like it to me; the Progetto Mod 65 being about a decade later, drawn up as a native competitor to the Leopard 1 that the Italian military was interested in.

If anything, it looks a bit like a flattened Chi-Se with a post-war turret ontop.


Edited by Nishi_Kinuyo, 09 March 2018 - 11:33 PM.


DracheimFlug #3 Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:38 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 09 March 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

by the way, by standardpanzer i don't mean the e-50 or e-50m. standardpanzer is also a common name for hte europanzer

 

the tier 9 is identical to hte leopard prototype by kraus maffei

 

OMG! You are right! They both look like tanks!!!! Completely identical! Other than the different hulls and different turrets..... 

 

Alert the presses..... 

 

 



CamperKaempfer #4 Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:28 AM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 09 March 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

 

OMG! You are right! They both look like tanks!!!! Completely identical! Other than the different hulls and different turrets..... 

 

Alert the presses..... 

 

 

 

not only are the both tanks, they're also meds. and some meds is exactly what you need to take

if your bitterness and eagerness to be a p r i c k didn't blind you, you'd see that the hulls and suspensions are nearly identical from what can be seen. and the turrets also have striking similarities, such as very wide and rounded back, quite unlike anything else i've seen


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 10 March 2018 - 12:41 AM.


CamperKaempfer #5 Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:36 AM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 09 March 2018 - 11:33 PM, said:

Doesn't seem like it to me; the Progetto Mod 65 being about a decade later, drawn up as a native competitor to the Leopard 1 that the Italian military was interested in.

If anything, it looks a bit like a flattened Chi-Se with a post-war turret ontop.

 

1969. you're right. i would love if someone released documents. i must admit it is kind of suspicious that it happened to be just one year prior to wg's self-imposed 1970 limit

CamperKaempfer #6 Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:42 AM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 09 March 2018 - 11:33 PM, said:

Doesn't seem like it to me; the Progetto Mod 65 being about a decade later, drawn up as a native competitor to the Leopard 1 that the Italian military was interested in.

If anything, it looks a bit like a flattened Chi-Se with a post-war turret ontop.

 

also thanks or letting me know about the chi-se. i've gathered it's basically a chi-ri with am o-ni gun. would be nice to have that gun option

leggasiini #7 Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:07 AM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 10 March 2018 - 01:42 AM, said:

 

also thanks or letting me know about the chi-se. i've gathered it's basically a chi-ri with am o-ni gun. would be nice to have that gun option

 

Actually, the Chi-Se is more than ”just a Chi-Ri with an O-Ni’s 10.5cm gun”. It features somewhat different hull and massively stronger armor than the Chi-Ri.

 

Among with that, considering the Chi-Se’s hull is the same as the Ho-Ri tank destroyer (which in return is based on the Chi-Ri), there is potential to upgrade the engine to a 1100 HP one that was developed for the production model of the Ho-Ri, and there is room for gun upgrades as well by even stronger versions of 10cm guns (10.5cm Type 5). It essentially is Chi-Ri on steroids and is very well a tier 9-10 worthy tank. A Chi-Ri with 10cm gun and stronger engines could make a tier 8 MT in return.

 

Also, the 1970 limit has been gone for a while. Type 64 is from 1975, UDES is from 70’s, M48A5 is late 70’s, and the WZ-132-1 is technically a 80’s design due to its gun, even though it is fictional ”frankenstein” of 3 existing Chinese features (HEAT-cage turret + Type 62 hull with sideskirts + L7 gun).



DracheimFlug #8 Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:29 AM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 10 March 2018 - 12:28 AM, said:

 

not only are the both tanks, they're also meds. and some meds is exactly what you need to take

if your bitterness and eagerness to be a p r i c k didn't blind you, you'd see that the hulls and suspensions are nearly identical from what can be seen. and the turrets also have striking similarities, such as very wide and rounded back, quite unlike anything else i've seen

 

Of course they are both meds. Who exactly was still building heavies by the time this was built? I am not certain if even the Soviets and/or China were still designing heavies by then. 

 

Similar suspensions ..... there was a lot of data sharing and trading. The German built Leopard 1 uses a British gun, for example. Also you cannot see most of the Italian suspension due to the skirts. Same with turrets, although in the case of the turrets, they are clearly not identical. Similar designs yes, but again, allies share data. 

 

You accuse me of blindness and eagerness, but have you considered that you might be the blind one overly eager to find something to accuse WG of? Seriously, you just have to look at them to see that they are different tanks. And they eventually decided just to use German built Leopard 1's, so the prototype having similarities to the Leopard are not surprising. The conversation was likely something like 'Hey, we should make our own tanks. Can you make something like this?'..... 'Here, how about this?' ..... and then wiser heads in Government realized that Italian industry hadn't built any tanks in a long while and decided not to risk a fiasco. Note that when they finally did produce their own in 1995, the Ariete, their design is basically an Italian built Leopard 2, with slight differences to accommodate Italian industry. 



CamperKaempfer #9 Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:11 PM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 10 March 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

 

Of course they are both meds. Who exactly was still building heavies by the time this was built? I am not certain if even the Soviets and/or China were still designing heavies by then. 

 

Similar suspensions ..... there was a lot of data sharing and trading. The German built Leopard 1 uses a British gun, for example. Also you cannot see most of the Italian suspension due to the skirts. Same with turrets, although in the case of the turrets, they are clearly not identical. Similar designs yes, but again, allies share data. 

 

You accuse me of blindness and eagerness, but have you considered that you might be the blind one overly eager to find something to accuse WG of? Seriously, you just have to look at them to see that they are different tanks. And they eventually decided just to use German built Leopard 1's, so the prototype having similarities to the Leopard are not surprising. The conversation was likely something like 'Hey, we should make our own tanks. Can you make something like this?'..... 'Here, how about this?' ..... and then wiser heads in Government realized that Italian industry hadn't built any tanks in a long while and decided not to risk a fiasco. Note that when they finally did produce their own in 1995, the Ariete, their design is basically an Italian built Leopard 2, with slight differences to accommodate Italian industry. 

 

the meds thing was a pun. of course it flew way over your head. those tanks are very similar. i didn't accuse wargaming of anything. in fact, i don't see how wargaming has any influence in italian tank design. i was just curious about the nature of the tank. it was a question, not an accusation. you're projecting your own aggressive nature onto me. there's no reed to lose your temper all over the place and ramble about something completely different. i don't think anyhting about anything is "surprising".  you said it's possible they're similar because allies share information, and at the same time accused me of suggesting it might have been the case for this tank. you're just angry but you yourself dont' know about what.

of course, since this is the internet, and even worse, a gaming comunity, you'll always find a nutjob like you, no matter how innocent your question is. but just so i can help you, what did i say that triggered you so much? why does the possibility of the italian tank being similar to the europanzer trigger you so much? why did you assume i was accusing wargaming of something they have no power about?


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 10 March 2018 - 02:23 PM.


CamperKaempfer #10 Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:18 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 10 March 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

 

Actually, the Chi-Se is more than ”just a Chi-Ri with an O-Ni’s 10.5cm gun”. It features somewhat different hull and massively stronger armor than the Chi-Ri.

 

Among with that, considering the Chi-Se’s hull is the same as the Ho-Ri tank destroyer (which in return is based on the Chi-Ri), there is potential to upgrade the engine to a 1100 HP one that was developed for the production model of the Ho-Ri, and there is room for gun upgrades as well by even stronger versions of 10cm guns (10.5cm Type 5). It essentially is Chi-Ri on steroids and is very well a tier 9-10 worthy tank. A Chi-Ri with 10cm gun and stronger engines could make a tier 8 MT in return.

 

Also, the 1970 limit has been gone for a while. Type 64 is from 1975, UDES is from 70’s, M48A5 is late 70’s, and the WZ-132-1 is technically a 80’s design due to its gun, even though it is fictional ”frankenstein” of 3 existing Chinese features (HEAT-cage turret + Type 62 hull with sideskirts + L7 gun).

 

wargaming itself stated that. udes is rm the 70's but that's a completely different thing from the udes in the game. it was a turreted tank destroyer/medium tank, whike the udes in the game preceeds the strv 103, which is a 50's project. you're right about the other tanks. wg has a thing for unhistorical engines, do since the hull is similar i don't see the problem for the 1100hp in the chi se, or even the chi ri, if the hull is the same. but what about hte turret? would it be as bad as the chi ri's

leggasiini #11 Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:28 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 10 March 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

wg has a thing for unhistorical engines, do since the hull is similar i don't see the problem for the 1100hp in the chi se, or even the chi ri, if the hull is the same. but what about hte turret? would it be as bad as the chi ri's

 

The turret supposedly was meant to get at least +125 mm extra armor on top of the current 75 mm, which would make the turret somewhat slightly better than that of E50/50M. Mantlet likely would be very strong.

 

The UFP is 120 mm thick sloped at 70 degrees, and the side armor was likely designated to be same as the Ho-Ri, AKA likely around 70 - 100 mm thick, if we look at the armor of the production model Ho-Ri.



DracheimFlug #12 Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:31 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 10 March 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

 

 

the meds thing was a pun. of course it flew way over your head. those tanks are very similar. i didn't accuse wargaming of anything. in fact, i don't see how wargaming has any influence in italian tank design. i was just curious about the nature of the tank. it was a question, not an accusation. you're projecting your own aggressive nature onto me. there's no reed to lose your temper all over the place and ramble about something completely different. i don't think anyhting about anything is "surprising".  you said it's possible they're similar because allies share information, and at the same time accused me of suggesting it might have been the case for this tank. you're just angry but you yourself dont' know about what.

of course, since this is the internet, and even worse, a gaming comunity, you'll always find a nutjob like you, no matter how innocent your question is. but just so i can help you, what did i say that triggered you so much? why does the possibility of the italian tank being similar to the europanzer trigger you so much? why did you assume i was accusing wargaming of something they have no power about?

 

Lol when exactly did I lose my temper? 

 

You said "the tier 9 is identical to hte leopard prototype by kraus maffei" to which I replied 'No they are not' and pointed out the obvious differences. Then when you doubled down, I pointed out the reasons for obvious similarities. With due respect, you seem either the 'triggered' one here, or the one trying to trigger others. Lol, good luck with that.



CamperKaempfer #13 Posted 10 March 2018 - 05:18 PM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 10 March 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

 

Lol when exactly did I lose my temper? 

 

You said "the tier 9 is identical to hte leopard prototype by kraus maffei" to which I replied 'No they are not' and pointed out the obvious differences. Then when you doubled down, I pointed out the reasons for obvious similarities. With due respect, you seem either the 'triggered' one here, or the one trying to trigger others. Lol, good luck with that.

 

hehe, if you're talking about the tier 9 you're changing the topic, but they are identical. in fact they're admittedly the same tank. the name is the same too. prototipo standard b clearly is the prorotyp der arbeitsgruppe b. just read the description wargaming provided. and to prove it looks the same. here is a link to the picture. if you look at my post i also posted the picture of the tier 9 for comparison in my latest editing. i wanted to win some kind of argument by changing to a topic you weren't prepared for, and you played yourself spectacularly. this is so much fun!

but please, since you were talking about the tier 9, what are those "obvious differences"? hehehe

 

FaTTvUJ.jpg

 

 

 

 


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 10 March 2018 - 05:27 PM.






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