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LTs buff suggestion-possible drawback?

Light tanks Spotting

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Dava_117 #1 Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:14 PM

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I'm mainly an heavy tank player, so I may miss some points (if so, tell me. Allways good to know). From what I see on battlefield, read on forum or experience my self, LTs got huge nefrs on gunnery compartment to "encurage spotting". Unfortunately they got also nerfed on VR, keeping cammo on the move as only advantage.

 

I know that proposal thread are usefull as sand in the desert, but I had this idea I want to share and hope, fore once and if comunity like it, WG would listen.

 

I started from the idea that the main light tank role should be the scout (both passive and active). Light tanks should been able to light up enemy to allow their ally to take them down and push. So light tank should be the pillar of active gameplay.

Originally I tought that giving LTs a really wide base VR (like 500-600m) would do the trick, but then the crew skills may not be as effective as are now in terms of advantages given.

So a second idea I got was to gives to LTs, (as "class perks" or by an equipment) the ability to ignore enemy cammo (maybe except other LTs, to allow passive spotting). LTs would ignore bushes, cammo net, cammo skill, cammo paints and base cammo, making a 390m VR light effectively better than a 420m VR med at spotting.

 

Light would became real scouts, with the capability of detecting even the stealthyest TD.

"Lights counter camping" may became a real thing in the game.

 

What do you think? Did I forgot something that may make sound my idea as stupid?

 

Tank you all for the constructive feedback I'm sure you will provide. :great:



somegras #2 Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:34 PM

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Doesnt that sound a bit overpowered to you?

Search_Warrant #3 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:25 PM

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Took my T92 with like 480ish viewrange took untill 50m (autospot range) to spot a RHM in a small bush. it took a patton with 487 viewrange to spot my ELCeven90 untill 65m to spot me. LT's have no place in this game. there camo sucks to even TD's with a net. why bother playing LT's anymore when you cant even out camo a god dam TD.

anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #4 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:26 PM

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Every time I think I have a gud proposal, I fall back to thinking that the current system is hard enough as it is. But anyway...

 

I don't think that "spotting" is enough of an activity in WoT.

You can park in a bush, go afk, and get tons of free xp/credits. Theoretically.

 

I would like to see a big overhaul for "spotting".

They should lower the 3600 viewrange we currently have and add a viewcone with extended viewrange.

Angle of the cone could vary, based on tank type, crew skill, equipment installed, height of the viewport.

So spotting tanks at long range can only happen with the sniperviewport.

They should add an X amount of time you should look in the direction of the enemy tank to spot it. 

Amount of time based on type of tank? Based on camouflage of the enemy tank? (tanks with enough camo stay invisible, just like now, no change in that)

 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #5 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:28 PM

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Or you could just nerf the viewrange on meds.

Dava_117 #6 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:40 PM

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View Postsomegras, on 23 March 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

Doesnt that sound a bit overpowered to you?

 

IMMO no. LTs have really bad gun, so even if able to spot very far tanks, they hardly can do much to them. 

 

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 23 March 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Or you could just nerf the viewrange on meds.

 

It may be another idea, but it wouldn't affect much the spotter role. If a light have to come to less than 100m to a TD to spot it, it will hardly thake this risk.

 

Spoiler

It's an intresting idea too. 



Ziurawka #7 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:42 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 23 March 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Or you could just nerf the viewrange on meds.

 

That's the only proper solution - nerf the view range on meds and heavies. 

TDs seem to be doing fine after their view ranges took a hit - it shouldn't be too hard to adequately balance other classes. 

 

Just take a look at lower tiers (up to tier VIII) - LTs are a perfectly viable class there though I'm open to discuss the matter if anyone disagrees :)

Apart from the diminishing view range difference in high tiers there is one more issue which can't be solved with any amount of tank buffing:

Most maps are still too small above tier VIII

Just take a look at Ensk as it is right now - how many seconds to spot the entire enemy team? 


Edited by Ziurawka, 23 March 2018 - 02:49 PM.


BlackPantherKTwo #8 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:46 PM

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That would just make the spotting system for lts easier. I personally dont want the game to become a simple game, I like a "complicated" spotting mechanic. As Nuclear_slug suggested, nerfing the mediums view range would be the easiest solution. And possibly even the heavys view range.

Dava_117 #9 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:52 PM

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View PostBlackPantherKTwo, on 23 March 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

That would just make the spotting system for lts easier. I personally dont want the game to become a simple game, I like a "complicated" spotting mechanic. As Nuclear_slug suggested, nerfing the mediums view range would be the easiest solution. And possibly even the heavys view range.

 

But then it should be an heavy nerf, and also to TDs too. As it is now, a full cammo TD with binocs can outspot a LT...

If T10 lights got 420, med should get 380, HT 350, TD 200 arty 150.



Gatix #10 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:55 PM

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MT can do everything better than LT.

Aikl #11 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:56 PM

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Maybe you can make a case for bush camo as a whole. I don't think it makes much sense that bushes give, apparently, a flat bonus to the camo of a tank. If a bush is big enough, even a Maus can gain camo value from it.

 

Same goes for camo net, which also gives a rather hefty, flat, camo bonus by virtue of class alone. 15% regardless of base camo. Camo net was not a bad idea even on a WTE100 back in the day (couldn't mount vents, rammer; GLD and binos were kind of pointless), because the relative camo improvement was so huge.
It also gives a hefty amount of camo when shooting. A Skorpion has 1,77% base when shooting. With net it's 4%. Pretty decent improvement, especially when combined with a bush (even sitting in it). E25's even worse. 15% stationary, but 8,82%->14,08% when shooting. Really dirty stuff.



Simeon85 #12 Posted 23 March 2018 - 03:10 PM

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Meds and Heavies view range is not really a problem for lights IMO, maybe the tier 10s, but even then it's really a Bat Chat or Obj. 140 that is the issue and I'd say more their camo is problematic rather than a view range. No one cares about Cent AX's and Fatton's with 410 or 420m view range because they are massive and their camo is poor (in the 9-11% base region).

 

IMO it's maps, though this enw update may have helped a little there.

 

And it's TD's with binos and camo net. Mediums having less view range is only going to hurt teams, you could all the lights 420-430 base, they are still not going to out spot Strvs with 65% camo and 500m view range cos of binos and camo net. 

 

Hell even an ISU-152, is able to push their camo up to near 50% and near 490m view range with binos, and that is in the open, behind a bush it is near impossible to out spot these campers.  Plus there is zero onus on these players to do anything, a camping light gets berrated by the team and offers little offensively with it's gun in most cases. 

 

Happened to me the other day, had my T71 with optics, view range skills, full camo crew, cola the works, something like 30% camo on the move and like 480m view range, go the middle of Malinovka behind a bush and get outspotted by an ISU-152 camping in base, who I only spot after he took all my HP. 

 

TD's are supposed to be countered by light tanks, but thanks to camo net, binos and nice OP base camping position that WG likes to give them that simply is not the reality.

 

Look at those new spots on Erlenberg, you think reducing medium and heavy tank view range is going to make digging out campers from there better? No, it will just make it easier to camp.

 

We shouldn't be rewarding passive campers.

 

Ban TDs from using camo net and binos.

Remove these OP base camping spots that WG calls 'areas for TDs'.

 

IMO those two things would help light tanks. 



Geno1isme #13 Posted 23 March 2018 - 03:11 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 23 March 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

Originally I tought that giving LTs a really wide base VR (like 500-600m) would do the trick, but then the crew skills may not be as effective as are now in terms of advantages given.

So a second idea I got was to gives to LTs, (as "class perks" or by an equipment) the ability to ignore enemy cammo (maybe except other LTs, to allow passive spotting). LTs would ignore bushes, cammo net, cammo skill, cammo paints and base cammo, making a 390m VR light effectively better than a 420m VR med at spotting.

 

That would be way to strong and just encourage yolo-scouting.

 

IMO there should be a couple changes combined:

a) reduce/normalize viewranges in general a little bit. It's silly that even T5 meds can reach the 445m limit with just optics, vents and crewskills. Of course you run into the usual problems with premium tanks with that.

b) increase the max spotting distance for lights a little to like 460-470, so it makes more sense for them to focus on viewrange

c) give them an ability to decrease camo of bushwanking TDs. Not sure how to accomplish that in detail, it shouldn't be a constant camo penalty (that would be too strong again). But there needs be a way to counter a double-bushing romulan camperbot without resorting to suizide spotting. Doesn't have to be exclusive to lights, you could make that a feature of optics or a crewskill.


Edited by Geno1isme, 23 March 2018 - 03:15 PM.


Simeon85 #14 Posted 23 March 2018 - 03:25 PM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 23 March 2018 - 03:11 PM, said:

 

a) reduce/normalize viewranges in general a little bit. It's silly that even T5 meds can reach the 445m limit with just optics, vents and crewskills. Of course you run into the usual problems with premium tanks with that.

 

 

If anything the stacks for camo are too high.

 

For view range you get 10% optics, 2% recon, 3% sit awareness, about 2% BIA, about 4% from food.  Two of those skills also need to be at 100% to get that much bonus.

 

But for camo you have 15% boost for TDs from camo net, massive boost from camo skill, 3-4% from paint, plus food, BIA, vents etc. all adding on top.

 

Camo crew skill and net are just too big boosts, like JP2 has just 10% base camo, but lump a net and 100% camo skill on there, suddenly it's at 33% camo. Add the rest it's add nearly 40%.

 

That is nearly 4 times it's original camo value. 

 

Yet with view range boosts you can barely push it past about a 25% increase.

 

So some TDs can double, triple or even more their base camo if they are willing to sit still most of the time, but most other tanks can only increase their view range by around 20-25% if they want to spot them when moving, which they need to be to have chance of spotting them. 


Edited by Simeon85, 23 March 2018 - 03:26 PM.


Dava_117 #15 Posted 23 March 2018 - 04:39 PM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 23 March 2018 - 03:11 PM, said:

 

That would be way to strong and just encourage yolo-scouting.

 

IMO there should be a couple changes combined:

a) reduce/normalize viewranges in general a little bit. It's silly that even T5 meds can reach the 445m limit with just optics, vents and crewskills. Of course you run into the usual problems with premium tanks with that.

b) increase the max spotting distance for lights a little to like 460-470, so it makes more sense for them to focus on viewrange

c) give them an ability to decrease camo of bushwanking TDs. Not sure how to accomplish that in detail, it shouldn't be a constant camo penalty (that would be too strong again). But there needs be a way to counter a double-bushing romulan camperbot without resorting to suizide spotting. Doesn't have to be exclusive to lights, you could make that a feature of optics or a crewskill.

 

Increase spotting range wouldn't change much, IMO. A full cammo TD would still outspot LT.

About the reduction to bush cammo, it could be a skill and an equipment (like IR sensor) may give the chance to ignore cammo net and paints. But IMO those should be only on light tanks, otherwise sniping TDs would became completely useless (I would enjoy it but some players like to play stealthy and should have the chance to do it).



Aikl #16 Posted 23 March 2018 - 04:44 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 23 March 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

(...)

IMO those two things would help light tanks. 

 

It would improve the game massively as a whole, not only help light tanks. Don't be modest. :P

 

In addition, the limited skill system basically "forces" TDs (and mediums, or in some cases heavies, for that matter) into taking the same skills as a light tank. That's perhaps a discussion for another time, but it would be fantastic to somehow force players into prioritizing skills/perks (get it to pick a 'recommended skill set' by default to make it simple for people). Make heavies choose between a (potential) module HP-boost perk and Sit.Aw. Do the same for mediums and TDs in similar ways. No need to let everyone have the ideal skillset for anything, especially considering that "everyone" has veteran crews with, easily, four-five skills.



Ziurawka #17 Posted 23 March 2018 - 05:03 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 23 March 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

(...)

 

Ban TDs from using camo net and binos.

Remove these OP base camping spots that WG calls 'areas for TDs'.

 

IMO those two things would help light tanks. 

View PostAikl, on 23 March 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

 

It would improve the game massively as a whole, not only help light tanks. Don't be modest. :P

 

 

What it would do is make sneaky (paper armor / high camo) TDs obsolete, why would you want to do such a thing?

Those that have high alfa could arguably still work, but those with low caliber / high dpm guns would basically be flushed down the drain. 

 

Surprisingly - I've never had any issues with sneaky TDs in my light tanks as they're both my favorite classes. 

If your team hasn't spotted the enemy strv yet and you get shot from somewhere - why charge in that direction?

The camping spots usually can be approached from several sides forcing the TDs to expose themselves. If not ... well why not just leave them be? 

If something you can't spot is redline camping you can always ... well ... cap? 

 

I'm not saying I've never got blasted to pieces from something that didn't even reveal itself, but it doesn't happen often enough to me to become an issue. 



Aikl #18 Posted 23 March 2018 - 05:22 PM

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View PostZiurawka, on 23 March 2018 - 04:03 PM, said:

 

What it would do is make sneaky (paper armor / high camo) TDs obsolete, why would you want to do such a thing?

Those that have high alfa could arguably still work, but those with low caliber / high dpm guns would basically be flushed down the drain. 

 

(...)

 

Just like artillery, I have little problem avoiding getting shot by camping TDs. Problem is, that often means being forced into 'non-gameplay', i.e. drawing lines in the sand because half the map is covered by TDs and there's no way to counter it. Who actually wants that kind of "gameplay"? Risk-and-reward, darnit!

 

I think most of us aren't too concerned about the 'pew-pew' TDs using camo to stay alive and unspotted. Binos remain a problem when used by those, however. Because there's not a huge penalty to take it (compare it to dropping stabs/rammer/optics for binos on a LT/MT), there's little reason not to turn them into effectively superior passive spotters. 

 

As for camo, the problem is that the camo gained from the camo net equipment and bushes are flat bonuses. That means huge turretless HTs gain the same as the 'pew-pew'-TDs from using the equipment. They shouldn't. It ends up being a balancing problem; there's little to gain by taking a Grille 15 over a T110E4. The latter should not have all the benefits of the former in terms of camo bonuses, yet still also be a functional heavy tank if the situation calls for it (or getting spotted isn't a big deal because you've got a ton of frontal armour).



WindSplitter1 #19 Posted 23 March 2018 - 09:24 PM

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Give more speed to light tanks

Geno1isme #20 Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:07 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 23 March 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

Increase spotting range wouldn't change much, IMO. A full cammo TD would still outspot LT.

About the reduction to bush cammo, it could be a skill and an equipment (like IR sensor) may give the chance to ignore cammo net and paints. But IMO those should be only on light tanks, otherwise sniping TDs would became completely useless (I would enjoy it but some players like to play stealthy and should have the chance to do it).

 

Increased spotting range isn't to counter bush-wankers but to give them a definite spotting advantage over heavies/meds on any (large) map. Shouldn't be too OP as LT guns aren't really good at sniping anymore.

As for counter-camo feature I don't want to make it exclusive to lights as then you become too reliant on them, As said, it shouldn't be a constant penalty, I'm thinking more about TD camo decreasing over time as long as they are (unspotted) within viewrange of a tank (with a certain skill/equipment, e.g. 1% camo reduction per second), not spotting them instantly. Mostly a thing for the late game when you have a good idea where the enemies are hiding.

 

The whole binary+instant nature of the current spotting system has always been a sore spot for me.

 

View PostSimeon85, on 23 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

 

If anything the stacks for camo are too high.

 

For view range you get 10% optics, 2% recon, 3% sit awareness, about 2% BIA, about 4% from food.  Two of those skills also need to be at 100% to get that much bonus.

 

But for camo you have 15% boost for TDs from camo net, massive boost from camo skill, 3-4% from paint, plus food, BIA, vents etc. all adding on top.

 

Camo crew skill and net are just too big boosts, like JP2 has just 10% base camo, but lump a net and 100% camo skill on there, suddenly it's at 33% camo. Add the rest it's add nearly 40%.

 

Those 40% still aren't a real problem. In the open, as soon as they fire they're like 99% spotted when you have decent viewrange. Problems start when the bush bonuses come in and the only way to reveal a Strv, UDES, Borsig or ELC is by literally running into it while due to 15m distance it can often keep firing at you. Now I don't want to remove that mechanic completely, but there needs to be a better counter to it than suizide-spotting or blind-shots.

 

And of course the bonuses for viewrange are lower as the base values are much higher. 


Edited by Geno1isme, 23 March 2018 - 11:08 PM.






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