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Super toxicity and WG's culture of violence


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m1x_angelico #1 Posted 27 March 2018 - 07:15 PM

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After playing for quite some time, I've come to the conclusion that the main driver behind super toxicity of many players in this game is lack of skill based MM.

 

This is my reasoning behind it: imagine that you are playing a team based sport e.g. football. Now imagine that you are an average, above average or excellent player, who is placed in a team with 10 physically and mentally handicapped players, and that you are supposed to compete against a team where most of the players do not have a handicap, and are instead quite good players.

 

You make a pass, a teammate misses it. You make a long pass, but there is no one on the opposing teams side - they are all standing in the penalty box. You make 10 more passes, teammates miss them as well and moreover start colliding with each other. You manage to persuade them to have a blitz counter attack, and you have a 100% goal chance, only to have your teammate collide with you and ruin the chance. Doesn't sound fun, does it?

 

This is how most games feel nowadays.

 

The only things that varies is:

a) whether you are in a handicapped team or in a team that is crushing the handicapped team. Still, the most frustration comes when you play in a handicapped team, especially if MM forces you to play in such team numerous matches in a row.

b) number of handicapped players in your team

 

How ever it may seem nice, politically correct or even philanthropic, to be playing with such players in your team, if you are competing to win and/or trying to have fun, you will most likely get extremely frustrated with all of this after some time.

 

At one point your frustration will reach the tipping point - you will start swearing and cursing at your teammates, but also on the person who forces you to play with such players in your team, over and over again. As you frustration and anger toward such person (WG) generally remains in vein as you can't vent to an abstract legal entity whereas you are also mostly ignored when contacting human aspect of WG (support, forum), your anger and frustration towards persons who are within arm's length (current teammates) only further amplifies.

 

As lots of people don't have psychological or emotional mechanisms to suppress and contain such continuous and cumulative frustration and anger (especially kids and teens), we get situations in game where there is super toxicity vented in matches (e.g. I witnessed a person Edited asking them if they want bananas, standard mother/sister/father variations of cursing, wishing other players to die, get terminal illness, etc.).

 

Toxicity as a form of verbal violence, only breads further violence/toxicity, especially from the victims of such violence. 

 

By not properly addressing this, WG is nourishing and perpetuating culture of violence.

 

If WG doesn't plan to introduce skilled MM (which I think they won't due to economic interest tied to this) I think they should address the toxicity. Allowing players to blacklist someone or to disable chat altogether is not the solution. People did not come to an online community game to isolate themselves.

 

This culture of (verbal) violence should be addressed and handled more seriously.

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks. 


Edited by VMX, 29 March 2018 - 12:15 PM.


IncandescentGerbil #2 Posted 27 March 2018 - 07:29 PM

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I think the main reason for the culture of violence is that we are driving heavily armed tanks.

evilchaosmonkey #3 Posted 27 March 2018 - 07:37 PM

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There's no effective feedback mechanism for poor play in the game.

So it's fair to reason people are using whatever tools they have available to themselves, and that is chat.

 

Happens in every competitive environment when team members let others down - especially when they don't even try.

 

OP,  come up with an effective way of encouraging and enforcing team play and I'm sure the community will be all ears. 

You'll never get rid of the problem 100%, but you may dampen it down.

 

 



Cobra6 #4 Posted 27 March 2018 - 07:56 PM

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The only thing WG needs to do is make sure that both teams have equally skilled players roughly, nothing more nothing less.

 

And of course make sure to not put one unicum in a top tier tank vs another unicum in a stock bottom tier tank. That would be nice as well.

 

Cobra 6



EpicEU #5 Posted 27 March 2018 - 08:01 PM

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"Stupidity brings money" WG sales strategy 2017-2018

 

Why do you think arty exists in this game?

Edited 

It's for those special people that can coordinate only one finger, to have a place in this game too.

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inflammatory remarks.


Edited by VMX, 29 March 2018 - 12:17 PM.


vuque #6 Posted 27 March 2018 - 08:05 PM

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This thread is quite interesting to read, we will definitely look at it again and collect your feedback!

Spurtung #7 Posted 27 March 2018 - 08:53 PM

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- Tries to explain toxicity in the game.
- Proceeds to call people handicapped.

- ...
- Profit?



HeidenSieker #8 Posted 27 March 2018 - 08:57 PM

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View Postevilchaosmonkey, on 27 March 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

OP,  come up with an effective way of encouraging and enforcing team play and I'm sure the community will be all ears.

 

One way of doing that - to some slight extend - trhat has been mooted several times, is to reward BB medals much more.

 

Perhaps encouragement is the way to go for other things, too - but the main difficulty for anything involving "reports" - active player on player sanctions - is how to prevent abuse.

 

Hm, tricky.



dimethylcadmium #9 Posted 27 March 2018 - 08:57 PM

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Did you just call yourself handicapped with this post, OP?

 

I know self-deprecating humor is a thing, but take it easy, many handicapped people are disabled by chance, not by choice :coin:


Edited by dimethylcadmium, 27 March 2018 - 08:58 PM.


somegras #10 Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:10 PM

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Toxicity doesn't just spawn from unreal expectations set onto teammates, it can be anything ranging from the tank someone is playing to flaws in game design. The thing that spawns the amount of toxicity is a combination of being behind a computer screen and the lack of repercussions. I don't see how skill-based MM would fix any of this, just look at ranked. There was plenty of toxicity on the higher tiers when I played it, and over 80% of the teams were unicum or above at that time. They already fixed a lot of the toxicity by removing all-chat, the only step left to take is to be harsher regarding punishments.

As for your case: if you want your team-mates to play according to your expectations, grab a mate, get some voice comms and platoon together. You cannot set unreal expectations upon your team-mates.


Edited by somegras, 27 March 2018 - 09:11 PM.


Pansenmann #11 Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:14 PM

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[insert "toxic" music video]

PhooBar #12 Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:18 PM

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View Postvuque, on 27 March 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

This thread is quite interesting to read, we will definitely look at it again and collect your feedback!

Holy shiiiiii...

BBV, izzatchoo?



Spurtung #13 Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:37 PM

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View Postvuque, on 27 March 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

This thread is quite interesting to read, we will definitely look at it again and collect your feedback!

 

Fingers crossed that was another example of "WG listens to the players" type of sarcasm.

Mimos_A #14 Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:39 PM

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It would help if WG would invest some time in teaching players some basic stuff. Don't know how the current tutorial is, but the previous "press WASD to move and mouse button to pew-pew" was hardly something you can expect anyone to get a grip on the game from. That and some punishment for doing consistently abysmal. People who average less than a quarter of their HP at tier 8/9/10 should really be given some indication that that's really really not playing the game right. And I think there should be some testing of putting players that consistently do ridiculously bad in PvE matches only. I have no problem with people that make a mistake or mess up sometimes, some you win, some you lose, sometimes you're the one who messes up and throws the game. However, players with about 42% wins in tier 10's with 100's of games who take their IS7 to the closest camping bush to the spawn should really not be allowed to ruin the chance of having a fun game for team after team in this current 3/5/7 mm.



vuque #15 Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:54 PM

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View PostPhooBar, on 27 March 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

Holy shiiiiii...

BBV, izzatchoo?

 

I am not BBV, my nickname was always same and I am working for WG over 5 years now. I was generally hanging around the Turkish forum before. :P

 

View PostSpurtung, on 27 March 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

 

Fingers crossed that was another example of "WG listens to the players" type of sarcasm.

 

Nope, not sarcasm. We are genuinely interested to see your feedback about what do you think is the root of the toxicity in the game and how could it be solved.



CrimsonEntropy #16 Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:55 PM

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View Postvuque, on 27 March 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

This thread is quite interesting to read, we will definitely look at it again and collect your feedback!

 

Lies. 

You never read anything, you never collate feedback, and you never listen to anyone no matter who they happen to be or who's [edited]they suck.

I genuinely don't think that WG gives two [edited]about the community. 

Aikl #17 Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:12 PM

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View PostSpurtung, on 27 March 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

 

Fingers crossed that was another example of "WG listens to the players" type of sarcasm.

 

 Assuming you're referring to the point of skill-based matchmaking here. OP's got good points, but I think I'm gonna make a little list, just to be on the safe side. It's frankly really easy to rebuke the argument of skill-based MM correcting toxicity anyway: People are just going to blame the good players when they die early. Literally nothing changes, apart from the players targeted.

 

Anyway, consider the following:

Was in-game toxicity/abuse as bad in the past?

Has it become worse?

Why is that?

Are the 'baddies' more numerous?

Are they too numerous?

Is the team more likely to get a 'baddie' in a position that makes a huge impact on the game?
 

That brings us on to the following:

  • 3-5-7:
    • The preference for the 3-5-7 pattern is a major factor in creating mismatched teams. 
    • The variance of the skill of three top-tier players is potentially much greater than for a sample of five or ten.
    • Introducing, or even considering, a form of skill-based matchmaking would be yet another feeble attempt to patch up the main inherent flaw with the matchmaker. Wargaming has shown multiple times that 3-5-7 creates badly matched teams, by needing to consider addition parameters when creating teams. That includes vehicle class and subclass (9.21 or so). Matchmaking was potentially way more skewed in the past, but not necessarily worse in practice. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why that is.
       
  • Measuring a player's skill to implement skill-based MM is going to be hopeless:
    • There is no good way to define 'skill' without intelligent, presumably human, input.
    • We are human. There is extremely little consistency amongst ~90% of the playerbase, if not more.
    • RNG is still an enormous factor, likely to skew battles extremely regardless of how evenly skilled two players are.
    • 'Padding' will still be a thing.
      • I can see a lot of players being purposefully useless to mess with the matchmaking system.
      • There are a lot of players with 'padded' stats, for whatever reason. They do extremely well at T4/5, but are below average in T8-10. Matching him against someone who's good, but mainly plays high-tier tanks, won't be good.
  • It will make battles extremely boring for a lot of players:
    • If I know that there is another player on the enemy team as good as me, I'll be way less eager to take chances because I know the team relies on me.
    • If you keep XVM around, people are just going to blame the 'good' players when they die early. Literally nothing changes, apart from the players targeted.
    • What tank I play is going to be a major concern. There's no reason to play 'fun' tanks anymore, I'd "have to" play the most powerful ones.
    • I will be practically required to 'keep up' in terms of loadout. Crew skills, ammunition choice, equipment. It's practically an arms race that will just end in frustration for those who are not willing to keep doing that.
       
  • Regardless of the above,  let's assume skill-based matchmaking works, because this is pure la-la-land where everyone performs extremely consistent and doesn't 'pad' their stats to skew the system at all.
    • There is still the huge factor of RNG.
    • What tanks people play will change drastically. There would be no point in using the weaker tanks, since they will give a guaranteed disadvantage.
    • Loadouts will default to 'tryhard', because it's one of two things you can use to increase your chances of doing better than the opposition.

Kind regards,

Someone extremely concerned with the staff showing interest for posts including topics that has been thoroughly dismantled and debunked as a solution for literally anything.

 

View Postvuque, on 27 March 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

 

I am not BBV, my nickname was always same and I am working for WG over 5 years now. I was generally hanging around the Turkish forum before. :P

 

 

Nope, not sarcasm. We are genuinely interested to see your feedback about what do you think is the root of the toxicity in the game and how could it be solved.

 

 

Can confirm, BBV is indeed not Turkish. Solid sources.

 

 The 'quick and dirty' take on it is that you're literally asking for this kind of trouble with 3-5-7. Beyond the statistical implications of having three top-tier tanks, as mentioned above, you're also creating an evironment where literally half the team (if not more, considering stock tanks and whatnot) are bound to feel useless. Toxicity is certainly a result of desperation - but maybe that's caused by being forced into playing support and watching your top-tiers die in nominally (in practice more) 46% of your games?

 

Also, the game 'overall' allowing for anyone and their mother to be literally as useless as possible without any issues at all. There's literally nothing preventing me from being useless in a T10 match if I want to, aside from a repair bill that is instantly fixed by a few minutes in a premium tank - or by siphoning the amount of credits Wargaming grants us for doing just about nothing.

 

Most forum users are pretty certain why 3-5-7 is a thing, and why Wargaming are clinging on to it - despite evidently being a major mess that has required adjustments way beyond what was needed in previous years.

Maybe that's down to a more 'open' policy on MM since 9.18, but it looks like Wargaming is trying to patch up a sinking ship - and failing hard at it. Multiple points above points out exactly why. 
I really doubt that toxicity is the one thing that will make Wargaming dump 3-5-7, considering the mentioned problems.

 

Regardless, appreciate you poking your head into these kind of threads.


Edited by Aikl, 27 March 2018 - 10:36 PM.


Spurtung #18 Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:13 PM

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View Postvuque, on 27 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

View PostSpurtung, on 27 March 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

 

Fingers crossed that was another example of "WG listens to the players" type of sarcasm.

 

Nope, not sarcasm. We are genuinely interested to see your feedback about what do you think is the root of the toxicity in the game and how could it be solved.

Did you even read it? :amazed:



Long_Range_Sniper #19 Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:22 PM

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View Postvuque, on 27 March 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

Nope, not sarcasm. We are genuinely interested to see your feedback about what do you think is the root of the toxicity in the game and how could it be solved.​

 

Introducing skill based matchmaking is not a solution looking for the problem of toxicity. The two have no connection at all.

 

Anyone taking part in any of the team based modes in the game knows that there is enough "toxicity" at times down to decisions and actions taken in battle to make the most resolute ego wilt. Toxicity didn't seem to decrease in ranked battles either as you moved up.

 

This is just the usual SBMM hobby horse, dressed up with a link to SBMM. There have been links made in the past to toxicity with arty and XVM, and yet WG leave them in the game. 

 

The game is about competition to win, over a short and intense game length where the highs and lows can be quite a rollacoaster over a few games. Competition is stressful on the body, and as a consequence emotions are fired up.

 

This isn't "World of Flower Arranging".

 

If there's no emotion in the game, there are no highs and no lows. You can drive tanks in many PvE games that have zero toxicity.....but the highs and lows are nowhere near as comparable to WoT.

 

Take away the emotion by design and you take away a lot of the spark from WoT that makes a difference.

 

Insulate the toxicity for those who don't like that aspect, and build on the positive emotions of teamwork, clans, toons and the forum.


Edited by Long_Range_Sniper, 27 March 2018 - 10:23 PM.


sniper_pixie #20 Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:25 PM

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I have no problem with vitriol, invective, profanity or otherwise bad language in chat.

 

Imagine you're on Paris in a tier 6 scout and the only tier 8 heavy and both tier 7 ones follow you to the bushy hill in the open area. None of the rest of the team will go anywhere else by themselves so they all huddle on the slope down, behind a building. Loss is inevitable before a shot has been fired (Except by the tier 8 heavy at the ground.) and it's entirely due to the heavy tank players. They have ruined the game for me. English may not be their first language, so why shouldn't I let them know in words the whole world understands exactly what I think of them? It makes me feel better to vent, and why should I care about their feelings if they're selfish enough to press 'Battle' in the certain knowledge that they make any team they join worse?






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