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When are the tier 10 lights going to get the buffs they clearly need?


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Gootti_Kustaa #81 Posted 04 April 2018 - 01:57 PM

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If the player pool was not so widely varied in skill (especially in the low end) the lights would be ok. 

Since the MM balances the number of lights in each team, all you have to do is to outperform the enemy team light in the same slot.

 

But... Usually the better players are in the minority. If you are a green+ player in a light, and the enemy team (randomly) has an equally skilled player in a medium or heavy, you will not have equal chances of winning.

 

I really think the lights could have a bit more hp to allow for mistakes, even if armor is poor. Also, some unique feature would be nice.

I have been wanting a feature that allows allies to get some kind of bonus when a light uses the "T" targeting command on an enemy tank, perhaps extra damage or allow spotting from further or whatever. This would actually give the spotting role more of a focus.



brumbarr #82 Posted 04 April 2018 - 03:55 PM

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View PostGootti_Kustaa, on 04 April 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

If the player pool was not so widely varied in skill (especially in the low end) the lights would be ok. 

Since the MM balances the number of lights in each team, all you have to do is to outperform the enemy team light in the same slot.

 

But... Usually the better players are in the minority. If you are a green+ player in a light, and the enemy team (randomly) has an equally skilled player in a medium or heavy, you will not have equal chances of winning.

 

Thats a really poor way of balancing though. Noone cares if your tank has a slighlty lower chance of winning, thats just  a symptom of the balance. What matters is that you feel at a disadvantage in every  battle. 

Put a tier1 tank on both teams in a tier10 game and their WR will be 50%, does that make a tier1 tank balanced in a tier10 game?



spuff #83 Posted 04 April 2018 - 05:00 PM

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View Postspuriousmonkey, on 04 April 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think we could start with giving the lights an extra role to play on the battlefield. That of a mobile harasser and executioner.

 

They still have the horrible pen, accuracy, HP pool etc, but we significantly buff the DPM of the tier 10 lights.

 

But we can't have a light out-DPM a med or a heavy!!!

 

Why not. If a light tank manages to catch a heavy or medium tank alone and has the ability to out-maneuver them and manages to hit the flanks and sides of a heavy/medium tank, they should be able to out DPM them. It's the reward. How this tank can be balanced. You take a risk, you get a reward. You don't have the pen, the HP pool of your opponent, but you have something else: maneuverability and DPM.

Rock, paper scissors.

 

But then lights will snipe from the back? Maybe, but it will not be very effective with horrible penetration at distance against all that armored stuff out on the battlefield.

 

As it is now, most people only think that lights have a viable role as suicide scout at the start of the game. Now, the light tank will have at least two viable roles.

This is what I’ve been saying! Make them like the old T5 Chaffee!



Somnorila #84 Posted 04 April 2018 - 06:14 PM

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View PostGootti_Kustaa, on 04 April 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

If the player pool was not so widely varied in skill (especially in the low end) the lights would be ok. 

Since the MM balances the number of lights in each team, all you have to do is to outperform the enemy team light in the same slot.

 

But... Usually the better players are in the minority. If you are a green+ player in a light, and the enemy team (randomly) has an equally skilled player in a medium or heavy, you will not have equal chances of winning.

 

I really think the lights could have a bit more hp to allow for mistakes, even if armor is poor. Also, some unique feature would be nice.

I have been wanting a feature that allows allies to get some kind of bonus when a light uses the "T" targeting command on an enemy tank, perhaps extra damage or allow spotting from further or whatever. This would actually give the spotting role more of a focus.

 

I did make several posts regarding possibilities for balance. Like making the light tanks be the only ones who can spot in 360 degree range without any player input. Make mt's do spot without imput only tanks they have in front of their gun, that v shaped area, similar to how designated target perk works. Make HT's have same area but make players press "T" on one enemy to get that spot working. Make td's use "T" key to spot only one enemy, the one painted and that's all. Let arty have same 360 degree no input capabilities, same as lights. Of course remove 50m proxy spotting.

I would also buff arties but separate what they see from the rest of the allies so that arties see only manually painted targets from all classes besides spg's and lt's. Would also limit spg and lt to a range of 1-2 per team, having mirrored numbers.



L3gionaire #85 Posted 05 April 2018 - 07:45 AM

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Cmon guys, you know the main problem of lights are the maps in the end.

Look, only 2 truely good maps in 1.0 for lights.

I might be wrong in some comments, don't punish me too hard :)

 

Ensk - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Erlenberg - So-so for lights - depends on how the team plays
Fisherman's Bay - So-so for lights - early spots, team dependant
Fjords - So-so for lights - many bushes removed, flated area in the middle
Himmelsdorf - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Karelia - Pretty good for lights - team dependant again
Lakeville - Pretty good for lights - early spots harder after 1.0 from middle road
Live Oaks - So-so for lights - team dependant
Malinovka - Best map for lights
Arctic Region - So-so for lights - many important bushes removed in 1.0
Mines - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Mountain Pass - Meah for lights - only early spots
Murovanka - Pretty good for lights - team dependant again
Overlord - Not suited for lights, only few positions where you can be useful
Paris - Not suited for lights, only North side and maybe risky middle area
Prokhorovka - One of the best for lights, but in 1.0 lines 1-2 changed, no more E1 bush anymore :)
Redshire - Pretty good for lights - middle passive spots - camping team dependant
Ruinberg - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Sand River - Pretty good for lights - active scouting
Serene Coast - So-so for lights - only early spots, afterwards………
Siegfried Line - Not suited for lights, honestly, fileld area ? Meh. You only need 1 enemy light and you're stuck
Steppes - Pretty good for lights (many bushes kept in place), but again camping team needed
Tundra - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Westfield - So-so for lights - heavy line is the most important part here


TryHardJustLikeMe #86 Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:28 AM

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I recently grinded the T100-LT. Iam managed to get pretty good stats witht the T-54 LW with 1,8k average damage and 1,2k average assisting damage.

 

The T100-LT feels like a downgrade. you cant even permatrack enemies with a repair crew. if you touch a enemy you lose instantly HP, this tank is utter trash.



tumppi776 #87 Posted 05 April 2018 - 11:29 AM

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View PostTryHardJustLikeMe, on 05 April 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

I recently grinded the T100-LT. Iam managed to get pretty good stats witht the T-54 LW with 1,8k average damage and 1,2k average assisting damage.

 

The T100-LT feels like a downgrade. you cant even permatrack enemies with a repair crew. if you touch a enemy you lose instantly HP, this tank is utter trash.

 

Yah - I constanly press firing button expecting it to be reloaded - the DPM is just tragic.

D4wiD3K #88 Posted 05 April 2018 - 02:46 PM

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View PostGootti_Kustaa, on 04 April 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

If the player pool was not so widely varied in skill (especially in the low end) the lights would be ok. 

Since the MM balances the number of lights in each team, all you have to do is to outperform the enemy team light in the same slot.

 

This is unfortunately not how it works at all. Yes, your light tank gets matched up against an enemy light tank. But even if you are miles better than him and he throws, your tier 10 light tank is still going to struggle to carry the game. This is the problem.

 

Artillery also has similarly "simple" matchmaking because they all do roughly the same thing and you get matched up against one. How often do you see tier 10 arty players with 60%+ solo win rate? Almost never. Beating "your counterpart" just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

Whenever you pick a Type 5 you'll also be fielded against an enemy super heavy but because Type 5 is a much more powerful tank than the lights or arties, you can still carry games.

 

In a 15 vs. 15 game it's simply unpractical to think of things as "1 vs. 1" match-ups. The reality is that you aren't sent into a sword fight(no homo) against the enemy light tank but you're playing against a team(LOL) of 15(or 29, depending on the perspective) players and your success largely depends on how well your tank fares in this kind of gameplay.


Edited by D4wiD3K, 05 April 2018 - 02:58 PM.


Hamkac #89 Posted 19 April 2018 - 09:00 PM

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View PostRobsham, on 29 March 2018 - 04:03 PM, said:

RU 251 is my most played tank, but I've not even bothered to get the Rhm Pzw; why bother when it's clearly just bad?

 

Personally I can live with the bad accuracy and low pen at range, but there's absolutely no excuse for the terrible DPM. DPM was what allowed the old tier 8 RU to outplay people up close, but now both the new RU and tier 10 Rhm Pzw have 300 less DPM, when the tier 10 should really have more. Why?

 

WG and some of the people in this thread clearly think that lights should be completely toothless vision bots, maybe that's fine in theory, but do you really think that's going to provide an entertaining experience for the people playing them? Or is it just going to make them the team whipping boy that allows other people to farm damage before being first sent back to the garage, ultimately leading to nobody wanting to touch the class?

 

Bad accuracy and bad pen at distance mean they don't threaten the meds position in the meta, giving them good DPM that can only be applied consistently at close range would give them a unique space as high skill-cap, high risk/reward close up glass cannons. But that would require certain players accepting the hard truth that the weight of your tank shouldn't dictate whether you win or lose a fight, as if this was some kind of tank based top trumps.

 

I dont mind bad DPM on light, if all of them would have bad DPM, but WG is so retarded, that they buffed all lights and nerfed germans which were the worst even before. Ru god neferd after introducing tier X. For no reson god speed nerf, only think making Ru fun to play. Lowering alpha of Rhm while increasing aplha of others? Wtf it was the worst light even bfeore. So it would be ok to have bad guns on lights if they would be comparably to each other, but clearly they are not 45% win rate or so on Rhm is realy saing something.

 



Hamkac #90 Posted 19 April 2018 - 09:05 PM

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View PostVarzA, on 29 March 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

They will probably never get the buffs they need because the lower tier scouts are too good, and the maps too bad to support this level of scouting.

So they give them other things to strengthen them like :

- t-100 lt is insanely hard to spot/hit/great camo

- wz-132-1 has strong turret

- 13 105 has autoloader and meh in almost everything else (ok, good camo too)

- sheridan/rhm pz have amazing view range and speed, to compensate for huge size, no armor not so good camo

 

View on Rhm is nothing when you dont have camo rating, even mediums has battter one (russian easily). Lt100 has so good cammo he can soit you while shooting at you even  when you are in the bush becouse it has 3 times better cammo. And becouse it has broken gun which doesnt need stabilizer you can mount vents and get  +- same view as rhm

shonemumy #91 Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:37 PM

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if they make them better; there will be bunch of scrubs without basic knowledge of game mechanics screaming all over the place how "OP" they are..

anyway, i just had to leave this here = 

tierXlights.jpg


Edited by shonemumy, 08 January 2019 - 04:39 PM.


The_Georgian_One #92 Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:43 PM

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Thanks for reviving this thread. I guess the answe is still - never.

shonemumy #93 Posted 08 January 2019 - 05:18 PM

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View PostThe_Georgian_One, on 08 January 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

Thanks for reviving this thread. I guess the answe is still - never.

 

to be honest they have more pressing issues to resolve at the moment, in my opinion. 

TeessideTintin #94 Posted 08 January 2019 - 05:49 PM

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Although when they reduce the damage done with premium ammo it removes one of the main restrictions they have on the LT having a decent aiming gun, in fact makes it more a neccesity.

 

"Necro much" versus "search the forum for an existing thread" is always an interesting balance at least this one wasn't over a year....



thetopcat #95 Posted 09 January 2019 - 08:43 PM

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View Postdouglarse, on 29 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

So basically you want your light tank to be as conpetative as a medium tank?

 

Thing is people play lights like morons most of the time. Hence the poor win rates.

 

If light tanks are going to be weighted in the matchmaker the same as a medium (which they are) then yes. 

DuncaN_101 #96 Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:11 PM

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Well at least the search function is alive and well

Dorander #97 Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:25 PM

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View PostDuncaN_101, on 09 January 2019 - 09:11 PM, said:

Well at least the search function is alive and well

 

Did someone resurrect that too? :P

kubawt112 #98 Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:31 PM

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View PostDuncaN_101, on 09 January 2019 - 10:11 PM, said:

Well at least the search function is alive and well

 

 

The nice thing about making threads about issues is that anyone looking for information find them so easily. Same goes for the chat issues or Fochgate - makes you wonder why Wargaming think the forums are so useless, doesn't it? :)



Simeon85 #99 Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:56 AM

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Seeing as this thread has been revived let's have a look at the tier 10 light WR curves today. 

 

Posted Image

 

Yep, still looking pretty awful. (btw those are the overall, but the 30 day curves are almost identical)

 

The only one that vaguely comes near the reference curve is the T-100 lt, and even then it's briefly, in the 53-56% section, but it's still around 1% loss in WR for these players and seems to drop away again for very skilled players oddly, which may be a lack of data with top level players not really playing the tank anymore because it's not competitive in the meta.

 

It's an even worse situation for the others, if we look at Mr. bang average 49% player then I doubt he is having much fun playing the other tier 10 lights, because he gets -

 

  • 45.95% WR in the WZ
  • 45.82% WR in the Sheridan
  • 46.9% WR in the AMX
  • 44.7% WR in the Rhm. 

 

That is some bleak numbers, it means the average player in this game playing the Rhm. basically becomes about as useful as a bot.

 

Laughably, a 45% overall win rate player in the Rhm. drops to below 40% win rate. 

 

If we throw in some comparison tanks in here, then Mr. 49% WR player gets -

 

  • 50.93% WR in the Bobject
  • 49.4% WR in the 430U
  • 47.4% WR in the Bat Chat
  • 48.5% in the E100
  • 50.1% WR in the Type 5
  • 46.82% WR in the Cent AX

 

So to the 'meta' tanks like the 430U, Type 5, Bobject etc. we are losing like 5% WR which is pretty huge, we are talking the difference between basically tomato and yellow player here, if not edging on green, shifting from being in basically like the bottom 10% of the playerbase, to being in like the top 50-60%. 

 

Now there has still been zero mention of buffs or changes to these tanks and with the proposed premium ammo changes I can only predict the performance of these tanks gets worse. They already have very low standard pen, with poor accuracy and horrific penetration drop off at long range. Their only realistic ability of doing damage at range is the HEAT shells that all but the T-100 has, with these having a not so impressive 280 pen, which now will reward these tanks with a 25% DPM nerf, and these tanks have the lowest DPM on tier 10 as it is.

 

The poor RHM, with it's 320 alpha will now be doing 240 damage per shot with it's HEAT shells, that is a wholly unimpressive DPM of just 1.6k for a paper tier 10 tank, that is T34 heavy level of DPM which is terrible on tier 8 and that at least has 248 AP pen, not 280 HEAT. 

 

So buffs to super heavies essentially and nerfs to paper tanks can only hurt the tier 10 lights even more. 

 

Plus since 1.0 spotting has become harder and harder due to the powerful HD bushes that can often even hide heavy tanks, it's not just Romulan cloaking Swedish TDs that hard counter tier 10 lights, it's now pretty much any TD or med behind a bush that will outspot them with ease, meaning their value on even the maps that you can do spotting on is diminished.

 

So I go back to what I said in the OP, these tanks need substantial buffs -

 

View PostSimeon85, on 29 March 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

These means -

 

  • More view range
  • More speed
  • More DPM
  • Less pen drop off
  • Better accuracy. 

 

 

On a side note giving these tanks back their Sandbox view range (which was mainly 420 - 440) would allow the wheeled vehicles to also have better view range which they probably need as well.

 

Probably the T-100 needs some minor buffs, I'd say to firwepower for that and view range to at least 400 if not 410, and the DPM up to like 2.5-2.6k like it was on Sandbox.

 

The other 4 clearly need major buffs in multiple areas, particularly the Rhm. which I think is vying for the worst performing tank in the game currently IMO.

 

 



baribal_80 #100 Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:12 PM

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View PostL3gionaire, on 05 April 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

Cmon guys, you know the main problem of lights are the maps in the end.

Look, only 2 truely good maps in 1.0 for lights.

I might be wrong in some comments, don't punish me too hard :)

 

Ensk - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Erlenberg - So-so for lights - depends on how the team plays
Fisherman's Bay - So-so for lights - early spots, team dependant
Fjords - So-so for lights - many bushes removed, flated area in the middle
Himmelsdorf - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Karelia - Pretty good for lights - team dependant again
Lakeville - Pretty good for lights - early spots harder after 1.0 from middle road
Live Oaks - So-so for lights - team dependant
Malinovka - Best map for lights
Arctic Region - So-so for lights - many important bushes removed in 1.0
Mines - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Mountain Pass - Meah for lights - only early spots
Murovanka - Pretty good for lights - team dependant again
Overlord - Not suited for lights, only few positions where you can be useful
Paris - Not suited for lights, only North side and maybe risky middle area
Prokhorovka - One of the best for lights, but in 1.0 lines 1-2 changed, no more E1 bush anymore :)
Redshire - Pretty good for lights - middle passive spots - camping team dependant
Ruinberg - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Sand River - Pretty good for lights - active scouting
Serene Coast - So-so for lights - only early spots, afterwards………
Siegfried Line - Not suited for lights, honestly, fileld area ? Meh. You only need 1 enemy light and you're stuck
Steppes - Pretty good for lights (many bushes kept in place), but again camping team needed
Tundra - Not suited for lights, no comment on that
Westfield - So-so for lights - heavy line is the most important part here

 

Malinovka is mediocre for lights now since early game you get a few spots but then mid game all the fights are at point blank range. Redshire is SOOOOO much better. Had many over 8k spotting games there.




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