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Amount of arty in a team, random game.


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Poll: How many spg's per team is best? (49 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

How many spg's per team? There will be no zero choice as arty haters opinions are irrelevant to me.

  1. 1 (20 votes [40.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.82%

  2. 2 (23 votes [46.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.94%

  3. 3 (6 votes [12.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

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Partybooper #41 Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:10 AM

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Sorry, even if you don't like it, people have their opinions.

 

My opinion: The best and most fun battles are the ones which have 0 arty players. You want to have points why this is the case?

 

1: I can play aggressive and take control of small dips in the environment with my fast light tanks etc. without having to fear that there will be a "click".

2: The stunning mechanic is the most annoying and stupid thing WG has implemented in a long time.

3: Without arty, there is less camping (yes, less, not more, as the better players can use their skillsets more efficiently without death from above).



Darth_Clicker #42 Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:46 AM

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View PostPartybooper, on 02 May 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

Sorry, even if you don't like it, people have their opinions.

 

My opinion: The best and most fun battles are the ones which have 0 arty players. You want to have points why this is the case?

 

1: I can play aggressive and take control of small dips in the environment with my fast light tanks etc. without having to fear that there will be a "click".

2: The stunning mechanic is the most annoying and stupid thing WG has implemented in a long time.

3: Without arty, there is less camping (yes, less, not more, as the better players can use their skillsets more efficiently without death from above).

 

So, are you saying that the game is easier without arty?  

HeidenSieker #43 Posted 02 May 2018 - 01:01 PM

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View PostDarth_Clicker, on 02 May 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

So, are you saying that the game is easier without arty?  

 

I think he's saying that he finds SPGs to be an excellent balancing mechanism in the game.

Darth_Clicker #44 Posted 02 May 2018 - 02:16 PM

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View PostHeidenSieker, on 02 May 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

 

I think he's saying that he finds SPGs to be an excellent balancing mechanism in the game.

 

By Jove, I think you may be on to something....

Orkbert #45 Posted 02 May 2018 - 02:58 PM

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View PostPartybooper, on 02 May 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

 

3: Without arty, there is less camping (yes, less, not more, as the better players can use their skillsets more efficiently without death from above).

 

No there isn't. Without arty the number of players that sit in their now comfy hulldown position increases dramatically.

Partybooper #46 Posted 02 May 2018 - 03:03 PM

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View PostOrkbert, on 02 May 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

 

No there isn't. Without arty the number of players that sit in their now comfy hulldown position increases dramatically.

 

Well, I can outmaneuver terrible players in hulldown tanks. I can not outmaneuver sky clicks though while I'm trying to do so. So I have to sit behind cover as soon as I'm spotted when there are arty players in the game.

 

Trust me. Good players are not countered that much by hulldown tanks. They are countered by any players in artillery, and it doesn't matter much if the artillery player understood the basics of the game or not. It's like rolling a dice, a casino game. Anyone can do that. That's why the damage per game isn't very different for most players in artillery, while the damage per game in a regular tanks can differ extremely.



Partybooper #47 Posted 02 May 2018 - 03:10 PM

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View PostDarth_Clicker, on 02 May 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

 

So, are you saying that the game is easier without arty?  

 

It's not easier. But without arty, it offers a richer game experience by allowing more variety in strategies instead of turning World of Tanks into a cover shooter as soon as you're spotted. Which is boring, to be honest. I want to be able to use my knowledge of the maps / tanks to outplay players who have less knowledge or are simply bad. Artillery, no matter if its controlled by a bad or good player, negates that. In other words, it's a tool the game provides to players who wouldn't be able to contribute to their team in a regular tank because they lack the experience / knowledge / skill to play in such tanks.

 

But I stop here. It's an endless discussion which has been going on for years. Opinions will never change. I will never stop being annoying by a player who is able to damage me even though he never moved an inch since the start of the battle, watches TV while he's playing and is perfectly safe for the first couple of minutes. Sorry, it's simply bad game design to give such players a tool to dominate while being not even dedicated to / focused on the current battle while being absolutely leathal. Sorry. I just don't like this design.



Darth_Clicker #48 Posted 02 May 2018 - 04:29 PM

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View PostPartybooper, on 02 May 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

 

It's not easier. But without arty, it offers a richer game experience by allowing more variety in strategies instead of turning World of Tanks into a cover shooter as soon as you're spotted. Which is boring, to be honest. I want to be able to use my knowledge of the maps / tanks to outplay players who have less knowledge or are simply bad. Artillery, no matter if its controlled by a bad or good player, negates that. In other words, it's a tool the game provides to players who wouldn't be able to contribute to their team in a regular tank because they lack the experience / knowledge / skill to play in such tanks.

 

But I stop here. It's an endless discussion which has been going on for years. Opinions will never change. I will never stop being annoying by a player who is able to damage me even though he never moved an inch since the start of the battle, watches TV while he's playing and is perfectly safe for the first couple of minutes. Sorry, it's simply bad game design to give such players a tool to dominate while being not even dedicated to / focused on the current battle while being absolutely leathal. Sorry. I just don't like this design.

 

You have a right to your opinion, but I completely disagree with it.  I have seen no evidence to clearly support your positions.  We shall have to agree to disagree.  I think no arty makes the game easier...you think no arty enriches your gaming experience...I think that winning more enriches my gaming experience...if the game is easier I have a better chance of winning more....and so it goes round and round....

Partybooper #49 Posted 02 May 2018 - 08:41 PM

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View PostDarth_Clicker, on 02 May 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

you think no arty enriches your gaming experience...I think that winning more enriches my gaming experience...if the game is easier I have a better chance of winning more....and so it goes round and round....

 

Yes, because it brings out the full potential of the regular tanks.

You say that winning enriches your gaming experience... Why do you play arty then? Arty is almost exclusively bound to RNG and map rotation. Much more than any other class. Lowest skill cap. In other words: You can have a much higher impact in the game in a regular tank if you know what you are doing because you don't rely on RNG so much.

 

Do you disagree?



HeidenSieker #50 Posted 02 May 2018 - 09:20 PM

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View PostPartybooper, on 02 May 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

Good players are not countered that much by hulldown tanks. They are countered by any players in artillery, and it doesn't matter much if the artillery player understood the basics of the game or not. It's like rolling a dice, a casino game. Anyone can do that. That's why the damage per game isn't very different for most players in artillery, while the damage per game in a regular tanks can differ extremely.

 

You have it the wrong way around. Good players are more likely to use hulldown techniques.

 

These players can be countered by SPG players.

 

If you think the damage per game doesn't vary much between SPG players, you could post some evidence, couldn't you. While you're at it, you can similarly consider their win rates.



HeidenSieker #51 Posted 02 May 2018 - 09:25 PM

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View PostDarth_Clicker, on 02 May 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

I think no arty makes the game easier...you think no arty enriches your gaming experience...I think that winning more enriches my gaming experience...if the game is easier I have a better chance of winning more....and so it goes round and round....

 

That's right. SPGs are a check and a balance.



Darth_Clicker #52 Posted 03 May 2018 - 03:57 PM

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View PostPartybooper, on 02 May 2018 - 09:41 PM, said:

 

Yes, because it brings out the full potential of the regular tanks.

You say that winning enriches your gaming experience... Why do you play arty then? Arty is almost exclusively bound to RNG and map rotation. Much more than any other class. Lowest skill cap. In other words: You can have a much higher impact in the game in a regular tank if you know what you are doing because you don't rely on RNG so much.

 

Do you disagree?

 

The statement about arty being almost exclusively bound to RNG and map rotation is without any merit at all.  I call BS on that.  But, if you can show any evidence to back up your claim, then we can discuss it.  As it stands, I say it is complete BS.  Look at my win rate and tell me I rely on RNG exclusively.

Partybooper #53 Posted 03 May 2018 - 04:19 PM

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View PostDarth_Clicker, on 03 May 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

 

The statement about arty being almost exclusively bound to RNG and map rotation is without any merit at all.  I call BS on that.  But, if you can show any evidence to back up your claim, then we can discuss it.  As it stands, I say it is complete BS.  Look at my win rate and tell me I rely on RNG exclusively.

 

It is useless to discuss this. So you are saying you are hitting flush what you want to hit most of the time, just by using skill and not praying to RNGesus so your shell will actually land where you aim?

Here is some evidence that arty is more like a dice rolling game than actually following the player's intentions:

 

Click me

 

This is a statistic for all classes, all tiers, all nations. The hard reality.

 

Tell me, do you need to take advantage of your knowledge about weakspots on tanks, and know your surroundings to flank enemies which are behind cover? Would you say that you do not rely completely on your allies to actually deal some damage / "support" your team?

It seems you are playing another game than me then. :)

 

Arty is just that - sitting around, hoping your team actually spots something, praying a single light tank will not yolo past your incompetent team members and wreck you in this useless machine.

Any other class is more reliable because it is not pure RNG and a one trick pony. Every other class can - to some extent - react to changing battle conditions during a match and be of use. Of course, only if the player isn't completely clueless and is overwhelmed by the gameplay of regular tanks.

 

You claim you can have the same impact in a battle like in a medium tank? Sorry, show me any evidence about that. I do claim that any player who does very well in regular tanks does not play arty because it makes his experience / knowledge which actually makes him a good player obsolete / useless when playing arty. Arty is limited. Too limited. Skill cap is the lowest in the game. I can put a completely new player with no clue about this game into my GW E 100 (I feel terrible I had to spend 6.100.000 credits to buy this thing just for personal missions) and he will do very well. I put him in any other tier 10 tank I have and he will get torn into pieces. This is the truth, not an opinion. Less RNG = Higher skill cap.



HeidenSieker #54 Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:13 PM

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View PostPartybooper, on 03 May 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

Here is some evidence that arty is more like a dice rolling game than actually following the player's intentions:

 

Click me

 

This is a statistic for all classes, all tiers, all nations. The hard reality.

 

Don't be so silly and ridiculous. It's no evidence for anything, especially "that (shots from) arty is more like a dice rolling game".

 

View PostPartybooper, on 03 May 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

Any other class is more reliable because it is not pure RNG and a one trick pony. Every other class can - to some extent - react to changing battle conditions during a match and be of use. Of course, only if the player isn't completely clueless and is overwhelmed by the gameplay of regular tanks.

 

Erm, no. When people post such stuff as this, their capability for rational argument s displayed - as "dismal".

 

 



Partybooper #55 Posted 04 May 2018 - 08:58 AM

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View PostHeidenSieker, on 03 May 2018 - 10:13 PM, said:

Erm, no. When people post such stuff as this, their capability for rational argument s displayed - as "dismal".

 

You played 99.0145% of your games in arty (9.947 out of 10.046), and basically no games in regular tanks. Your capability for rational arguments is, well, not very high. Especially considering your performance in those regular tanks (which require more than just point and click) are, sorry to say this, way, waaay below average.

 

You can not judge how the game actually plays. You didn't play it yet. 10 games in tier 2 tanks is not enough to point your finger at other players and call them irrational when they played every class for thousands of games, up through all the tiers.

I played all classes. More than enough. And from my experience, arty simply requires no tactical approach. No knowledge about the tanks you shoot at. It's like super easy mode which breaks the whole meta of the game. And all players who have a good impact in regular games say the same. Arty is no fun because it's dice rolling. The skill cap is too low, and it feels cheap to be able to engage enemies who can't return fire at you.

 

Broken game mechanic. Explanation: Inexperienced players have an advantage in arty when they are terrible in other classes because it relies much more on luck. Experienced players have a disadvantage because they cannot use their experience in this very limited class. Basically, a tool for inexperienced players which gives them a chance to do about average when in fact they would be way below average, because the performance in an arty is much closer across all players compared to all other classes. From total beginner to unicum.

 

You played 7.195 games in the Bishop (oh my god), and your average damage is 611 per game. I played it for 48 battles, and my average is at 775. What if I told you that in my opinion those 775 damage per game was just pure luck for me? Because I fully rely on spots from my team, the shell takes ages to reach its target, and the accuracy is so poor it is just luck when it goes to the center sometimes.

You played the Bishop 150 times more often than me. You should be ultra experienced with an amazing crew (my crew was a 75% crew with no skills at all) in this tank by now. Even considering this, you do worse, but only by 21%. This little difference is only there because I believe I know the maps better and know how to position myself a little bit better because I was actually driving on them in my regular tanks.

 

On the contrary, your performance in the Leichttraktor (35 games) compared to my performance (46 games played) is only 44.9% of mine, and it was the first tank I ever played, and when I started playing World of Tanks, tier 1 tanks shipped with a 50% crew. Not a 100% crew.

 

This is all hard data. Not thin air.

 

I know this all sounds arrogant, but is it so far-fetched? Let's be honest here. I don't think so. I don't want to attack anyone personally. I am just pointing out that artillery is just that - easy mode because luck takes over. If you had to toss a dice 5m, every person who can toss a dice for 5m will have about the same score after 1.000 tosses. No matter how "experienced" they are. Because it only relies on luck. Arty has a much bigger luck component than any other class, so of course bad players will do better in relation to other classes, while better players will do worse.

 

And now, deny this reasonable explanation without giving any statistics and logical explanations again. :)


Edited by Partybooper, 04 May 2018 - 09:18 AM.


HeidenSieker #56 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:43 AM

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View PostPartybooper, on 04 May 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

You played 99.0145% of your games in arty (9.947 out of 10.046), and basically no games in regular tanks.

 

(snip)

 

I don't want to attack anyone personally.

 

1) You have no idea what vehicles I play.

 

2) It looks very much as if you do.

 

Edit: By the way, perhaps you will address the points made, which have nothing to do with whatever accounts I play.


Edited by HeidenSieker, 04 May 2018 - 09:44 AM.


Partybooper #57 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:48 AM

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View PostHeidenSieker, on 04 May 2018 - 09:43 AM, said:

1) You have no idea what vehicles I play.

 

Sorry. I thought this is your account since it is linked to your forum profile. If this is incorrect, please drop me a link to your full player profile if you don't mind. Mine can be accessed by clicking on my name here on the left.

 

Once again. I don't attack anyone personally. I have given data and point out and give explanations WHY artillery requires much less skill and knowledge because of RNG (relies almost exclusively on the team, accuracy is bad it requires luck to hit, the inability to fight 1 on 1s, no knowledge about tanks required you want to shoot and so on).



HeidenSieker #58 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:49 AM

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"By the way, perhaps you will address the points made, which have nothing to do with whatever accounts I play".

Partybooper #59 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:52 AM

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View PostHeidenSieker, on 04 May 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

"By the way, perhaps you will address the points made, which have nothing to do with whatever accounts I play".

 

I did. I told you from my experience (over 1.500 games in artillery, I know, I feel ashamed, but I wanted to finish the personal missions for female crew members to put them in my regular tanks), that artillery requires almost no tactics, skill or knowledge about the most interesting basics of this game (spotting, angling, shell types, camo/bush mechanics, map knowledge, awareness of flanks falling etc) and relies almost exclusivley on RNG (team's performance, map rotation).

Also, ask players who are performing a good slice above average in regular tanks how they feel when they play artillery. They will they you they are held back because they cannot performed like they want to because the RNG component is too big. That's why you don't see very good players in artillery often. Why should they cripple themselves by having to rely on luck? See the global statistics for all classes like I linked.

 

If you disagree, tell me what you think makes arty require a lot of skill. Where do you put the skill and experience. Maybe I can do a lot better then in these (in my opinion) pure RNG slot machines. Please elaborate.


Edited by Partybooper, 04 May 2018 - 09:59 AM.


Orkbert #60 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:07 PM

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Ignoring the off-topic noise I now got a number of battles in which I chose non-SPGs for myself.

Of course the new sample is still small compared to the number of battles I had scrutinized during my last evaluation (about a whole order of magnitude actually) and I will continue to accumulate data but lets have the current score anyways:

 

0 SPGs encountered:   14 matches (17,5%)

1 SPG per side:            29 matches (36,3%)

2 SPGs per side:          23 matches (28,7%)

3 SPGs per side:          14 matches (17,5%)

 

And for comparison, again the numbers from the last survey I ended in January:

Block Quote

 

0 SPGs encountered:  109 matches (18,6%)

1 SPG per side:           241 matches (41,2%)

2 SPGs per side:         172 matches (29,4%)

3 SPGs per side:           63 matches (10,7%)

 

Well, so far the percentages seem to indicate that there is indeed an increase in triple arty matches but at least that increase doesn't seem to come at the cost of significantly less arty-free matches (which haven't dropped all that much)






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