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Losing and WN8


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ThinGun #1 Posted 30 March 2018 - 09:53 AM

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Maybe you guys can help me here.  I don't really care about MM or RNG, or whining about flattened maps.  What I do care about is trying to improve my game.  As far as I can see, the best measure is WN8.  I don't particularly care about other peoples' scores, I'm only really interested in my own.  If my WN8 goes up, I must be playing better, right?

 

Now ... whatever the make up of the teams in a battle, I will do my best to damage / kill as many of the enemy as possible - so , win or lose, I can be happy that I tried my best.

 

So - bearing that in mind - does winning or losing impact WN8?  And if so, by how much?

(I'm sure I could research all this somewhere, but I'm lazy - someone here is bound to know!)



doriansky1 #2 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:01 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

 As far as I can see, the best measure is WN8.

The best measure in my opinion is the following:

 

1.Win rate

2. Personal rating  + overall average damage (WN8 can be boosted by playing T67 for example, but PR will not increase as much since avg damage is quite low at tier 5)

3. Hit ratio (in my opinion this is an indicator of the average tier, since the accuracy of tier 5,6,7 is crap)

 

Regarding your question, average win rate does impact WN8 because of the following term in the formula :

 

rWIN    = avgWinRate / expWinRate

 

This rWin term is used to compute rWinc : 

rWINc    = max(0,                     (rWIN    - 0.71) / (1 - 0.71) )

 

Finally, rWinc is used in the WN8 calculation :

 

WN8 = bla bla bla + 145*MIN(1.8,rWINc)

 

D



LordMuffin #3 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:01 AM

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Yes, winning/losing impacts wn8 by some amount, as it is in the formula.

Check this thread for more info about wn8.
http://forum.worldof...should-drop-by/

 

Most important are damage and kills still.

But damage and kills doesn't win you games alone.

 

I made this account for fun some time back.

 

https://wot-life.com...r0y4h-537144950

 

As you can see, you can reach respectable WN8 while still not contributing to the wins. 

 

3600wn8 in the ELC AMX while having 46% WR.


Edited by LordMuffin, 30 March 2018 - 10:12 AM.


MeetriX #4 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:01 AM

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Nwm.

Edited by MeetriX, 30 March 2018 - 10:02 AM.


xx984 #5 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:06 AM

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kills are far more important, example being, 4k damage with no kills might be 2k WN8, 4k damage with 1 kill about 2.6k

ThinGun #6 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:13 AM

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Interesting answers thanks.  

I'm still unsure why people use WinRate as a measure of performance though.  Winning is something that depends more on the team than on you as an individual.   Theoretically, it's possible to be the best player in the world and never win a game because you're always in crappy teams. I'm sure you'd agree that it's highly unlikely that a player could continuously carry every game he joins.

To me, WinRate is like a throw of the dice.  Damage is something you can control.

 

But points taken.  I clearly need to work on my WR, even if I'm not sure how it helps.



xx984 #7 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:17 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 09:13 AM, said:

Interesting answers thanks.  

I'm still unsure why people use WinRate as a measure of performance though.  Winning is something that depends more on the team than on you as an individual.   Theoretically, it's possible to be the best player in the world and never win a game because you're always in crappy teams. I'm sure you'd agree that it's highly unlikely that a player could continuously carry every game he joins.

To me, WinRate is like a throw of the dice.  Damage is something you can control.

 

But points taken.  I clearly need to work on my WR, even if I'm not sure how it helps.

Actually winrate is a decent indicator, a truly good player can carry games that usually would be defeats, resulting in higher WR. while you cant win them all and you will lose games no matter what sometimes, the better players will have a higher winrate, and in the games you carry and can win which usually would be defeats, you tend to get more damage/kills also leading to higher WN8. 

 

Light tanks are pretty good as long as you dont play them for spotting, as far as WN8 goes btw. M41 90 GF, T92 being some of the better ones for it imo. Had 1.8k damage, with no kills, which is a pretty bad game in my opinion, and still got 3.4k WN8 from it, with kills its up to 4.3k+



LordMuffin #8 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:18 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

Interesting answers thanks.  

I'm still unsure why people use WinRate as a measure of performance though.  Winning is something that depends more on the team than on you as an individual.   Theoretically, it's possible to be the best player in the world and never win a game because you're always in crappy teams. I'm sure you'd agree that it's highly unlikely that a player could continuously carry every game he joins.

To me, WinRate is like a throw of the dice.  Damage is something you can control.

 

But points taken.  I clearly need to work on my WR, even if I'm not sure how it helps.

You need both, as shown by my test account (gud3r14n_t4nk_d3str0y3r), link in first post of mine.

 

WN8 can be farmed without it helping your teams chances of winning, and while this do require some skill (I doubt most players can achieve 3k wn8 and sub 50% WR in the ELC), it also shows that you need both to be good at the game.



xx984 #9 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:20 AM

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Just another quick thing, Just checked your WoT Life profile (https://en.wot-life....inGun-524181457 for reference) and you average tier seems quite low.

 

Try playing some higher tiers (8+), if you can learn higher tier gameplay sooner, rather than later, it will be easier to adapt to lower tier games, rather than trying to adapt lower tier game play to higher tier, which usually never works



RamRaid90 #10 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:29 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

 If my WN8 goes up, I must be playing better, right? No. Farming wn8 is easy. Sit on the redline and farm damage until your team melts = high wn8.

 

Now ... whatever the make up of the teams in a battle, I will do my best to damage / kill as many of the enemy as possible - so , win or lose, I can be happy that I tried my best.

 

So - bearing that in mind - does winning or losing impact WN8?  And if so, by how much?

(I'm sure I could research all this somewhere, but I'm lazy - someone here is bound to know!)

 

Wn8 and win rate in general do not depend on one another.

 

Padding wn8 is far too easy for it to be any idea alone of how useful a player is. And win rate can also be padded by playing platoons with much better players than yourself, artificially increasing win rate.

 

Context is everything and the whole picture needs to be looked at.

 

Wn8, Win rate and Avg. tier as a whole I feel give the best indicator of a players skill.

 

View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 09:13 AM, said:

 

But points taken.  I clearly need to work on my WR, even if I'm not sure how it helps.

 

Just because you don't understand something,  that doesn't make it wrong.

 

Being a good player, as has already been said, requires winning those games which a worse player will lose.

 

In general you will win 40% of games regardless of your input, and without being a unicum god or seal clubbing toons to the max you will  lose around 35% no matter how hard you try.

 

It's that middle ground, and the effect your play has on it that will determine your win rate over the long haul.

 

Out of 100 games. A good player will win an average of 60, where as a bad player will win an average of 40. It is only the skill of the 60% player which will allow him to force the game in his teams favour over the course of those 20 extra wins.


 

Edited by NickMustaine, 30 March 2018 - 01:17 PM.


unhappy_bunny #11 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:38 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

Maybe you guys can help me here.  I don't really care about MM or RNG, or whining about flattened maps.  What I do care about is trying to improve my game.  As far as I can see, the best measure is WN8.  I don't particularly care about other peoples' scores, I'm only really interested in my own.  If my WN8 goes up, I must be playing better, right?

 

Now ... whatever the make up of the teams in a battle, I will do my best to damage / kill as many of the enemy as possible - so , win or lose, I can be happy that I tried my best.

 

So - bearing that in mind - does winning or losing impact WN8?  And if so, by how much?

(I'm sure I could research all this somewhere, but I'm lazy - someone here is bound to know!)

 

If you are concerned only about your play, then dont worry about wn8 or W/r stats. You will know if you did your best in a battle, and you will know if you are doing better each time, or if you played badly. 

Most stats systems are flawed in one way or another, so why compare yourself to others using a system that is no 100% perfect. Come to that, why worry about comparing yourself to others in a pixel game?

You are obviously intelliegent enough to decide for yourself if you are improving. 



BicycleOfDeath #12 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:47 AM

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What you can also do is try setting goals for specific tanks. Like reaching a certain amount of damage, wins, gun marks or whatever it might be. For me it helps me focus on doing better.

 

You can definitely impact your win rate by playing better. Doing damage to the right tanks in the right place at the right time helps. Focus the threats, like the light tank that is spotting your team instead of the strv at the back and so on.



Cobra6 #13 Posted 30 March 2018 - 11:16 AM

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Usually you can either go for high WN8 but lose more matches or win more matches and go for lower wn8.

You don't have to do massive damage to win matches, you just need to do important damage. This means engaging enemies your team will have trouble with for instance rather than shooting up easy targets everyone can damage.

This means you are contributing more to the match but you get less for it in return.

 

Lately I've been grinding shitty Tier 7 heavy tanks (IS, M45, TigerP, BP, O-Ni) and while my wn8 is far below my standard (green rather than blue/purple) I am winning 70% of my matches. This is because I go pick fights with the most dangerous enemies on the most dangerous flanks and either do damage to them or hold them up long enough for my team to win. That is far more important than doing 3000 damage and losing most matches.

Generally, I've stopped giving too much about wn8 as it's easy to pad, a better indicator is your winratio playing solo as higher wr means a bigger influence on the battles you play.

 

If you win 70% of your battles but only have 2000wn8 that is better than winning 50% of your battles and having 3000wn8, because the latter means you are doing damage that has no influence on the outcome of the match which is completely irrelevant.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 30 March 2018 - 11:20 AM.


Homer_J #14 Posted 30 March 2018 - 11:23 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

  If my WN8 goes up, I must be playing better, right?

 

No.

 

Only if both your WN8 and win rate go up.

 

If just your WN8 goes up then all you are doing is farming useless damage.  Usually done by redline camping while your team dies.



Homer_J #15 Posted 30 March 2018 - 11:27 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

 

To me, WinRate is like a throw of the dice.  Damage is something you can control.

 

Throw a dice enough times and you will get each number with equal frequency.

 

We all get the same teams, any deviation from the average win rate over thousands of battles is due to something you are doing.



250swb #16 Posted 30 March 2018 - 12:25 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'm still unsure why people use WinRate as a measure of performance though.  

 

It's because you can't cheat Win Ratio. The game is about winning battles, so to say winning isn't important is ludicrous. Perhaps rather than an explanation of WN8 you want somebody to tell you 'don't worry about winning because you are a WN8 unicorn'. But any player can sit at the back doing nothing to influence the win, and still farm damage while the team dies around them. Doing it habitually and as a tactic contributes nothing to the team, players just need to be the last alive to stand a fair chance of farming the most damage, heck they'll even get spotting points as the enemy close in on them. So their WN8 can increase, but the player will be bragging about stats based on doing as little as possible, a bit like somebody who has been left an unexpected fortune in a will bragging about how skillful they are at inheriting fortunes.

 

That would be the extreme end of things, but you do often read players on the forum trying to justify WN8 alone as a measure of being good, or any other metric that inflates their self esteem. So the combination of WR and WN8 is the only true method (at the moment) to show how good the player is, because if they win they'll also be improving their WN8 at the same time, so crudely put that's two skills, wining and improving WN8, against just the one skill of farming WN8. However the headline figure should be WR, with WN8 simply being the 'working out' of how the player gets their high Win Ratio.

 

 


Edited by 250swb, 30 March 2018 - 12:30 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #17 Posted 30 March 2018 - 01:26 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 30 March 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

Maybe you guys can help me here.  I don't really care about MM or RNG, or whining about flattened maps.  What I do care about is trying to improve my game.  As far as I can see, the best measure is WN8.  I don't particularly care about other peoples' scores, I'm only really interested in my own.  If my WN8 goes up, I must be playing better, right?

 

You could play as a scout and sit in a bush lighting up the entire enemy team for you team to obliterate and essentially singlehandedly win the game and you'll get zero WN8 because you didn't shoot anything. WN8 only shows you shot something, it doesn't mean you're a better player. Winrate is the real metric for whether you are getting better or not. Good players win games, better players win more games.

failsmurf #18 Posted 30 March 2018 - 01:38 PM

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Don't worry about win rate because its all luck. I have 40% wins on most of my tanks since 1.0 update but there is nothing i can do.

Kolmiopaavo #19 Posted 30 March 2018 - 01:43 PM

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View Post250swb, on 30 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

It's because you can't cheat Win Ratio.

 

You absolutely sure? :hiding:

ThinGun #20 Posted 30 March 2018 - 01:54 PM

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Thanks for all the considered answers.  I'm still not sure what to do - not happy about climbing up the tier ladder, I can barely survive at Tier 8 and feel more comfortable at 5-7.  Still not convinced that WinRate is the way I need to measure by progress though - I only play TD, and there aren't that many opportunities for a glass cannon to carry a game (E25 and Skorpion excepted).  




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