Jump to content


Overmatch rule... any real life examples?


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

HassenderZerhacker #1 Posted 02 April 2018 - 10:48 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 23545 battles
  • 1,958
  • [1DPG] 1DPG
  • Member since:
    09-09-2015
WoT has this overmatch rule - are there actually any real life examples of some tank roof being penetrated by a shell at a very flat angle ?

Balc0ra #2 Posted 02 April 2018 - 10:54 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 62806 battles
  • 14,414
  • [WALL] WALL
  • Member since:
    07-10-2012

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 02 April 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

WoT has this overmatch rule - are there actually any real life examples of some tank roof being penetrated by a shell at a very flat angle ?

 

Examples of successful roof pens? Right now I don't recall any. But... I do recall an example when the gun had less the 3 times the caliber then the roof. And even in real life, you will fail then.

 

Block Quote

 

 

 



K_A #3 Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:02 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 13566 battles
  • 4,656
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    04-18-2013
It's easy to come up with a real life reasoning to the rule. I mean take a big enough stick and poke some tin foil with it and no matter what angle you try you will go through the tin foil. The exact caliber vs. thickness is of course Wargaming's imagination and gameplay mechanic balancing, but the principle does stand.

HassenderZerhacker #4 Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:05 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 23545 battles
  • 1,958
  • [1DPG] 1DPG
  • Member since:
    09-09-2015

View PostBalc0ra, on 02 April 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

 

Examples of successful roof pens? Right now I don't recall any. But... I do recall an example when the gun had less the 3 times the caliber then the roof. And even in real life, you will fail then.

 

yeah, lol, I knew this vid already ;-)

 

I'm asking about some real life examples, such as a Tiger II roof being penned by a 122mm gun at a 80° angle

 

yesterday, my SP Nr. VI was damaged through the roof by a 8.8 shell from a VK 30.01P (145 pen) that was no more than a grazing shot. I'm almost positive the angle was even flatter than 85° because I was above the VK, it was a bit weird.

when there is not enough angle for the tip of the shell to "bite" into the metal, I don't see how the shot can penetrate.


Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 02 April 2018 - 11:10 PM.


Tidal_Force #5 Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:13 PM

    Lieutenant General

  • Player
  • 16000 battles
  • 6,774
  • Member since:
    08-29-2012

View PostBalc0ra, on 02 April 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

 

Examples of successful roof pens? Right now I don't recall any. But... I do recall an example when the gun had less the 3 times the caliber then the roof. And even in real life, you will fail then.

 

 

 

 

And here I thought that HE isn't supposed to bounce :sceptic:

Balc0ra #6 Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:17 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 62806 battles
  • 14,414
  • [WALL] WALL
  • Member since:
    07-10-2012

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 02 April 2018 - 11:05 PM, said:

yesterday, my SP Nr. VI was damaged through the roof by a 8.8 shell from a VK 30.01P (145 pen) that was no more than a grazing shot. I'm almost positive the angle was even flatter than 85° because I was above the VK, it was a bit weird.

when there is not enough angle for the tip of the shell to "bite" into the metal, I don't see how the shot can penetrate.

 

Roof on that is 25mm thick. Even at an 85 degree angle, he has a 100% chance to pen due to the 3 caliber rule. Then again the shells in this game only has an hitbox at the center. So as long as that hit armor, the 3 caliber rule calculation starts. And if it's enough it will still pen and do damage to the armor regardless of impact angle.  But as there is no such rule in real life. I suspect you would see the paint stripped on the roof. As then by logic, would do no damage unless his bite did "puncture" the tank roof as such I suspect.

 

Then again there are plenty of Abrams videos on youtube vs T-72M's etc that seems to hit the roof. But most of them are so low quality since they are from 91, or the 2 mega pixel cams from 2003 that it's hard to tell where they hit.

 

View PostTidal_Force, on 02 April 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

 

And here I thought that HE isn't supposed to bounce :sceptic:

 

Well to be fair, the tip did not actually hit the "tank" for it to activate. It did hit and activate on the ground impact tho.

Edited by Balc0ra, 02 April 2018 - 11:24 PM.


IncandescentGerbil #7 Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:26 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 35597 battles
  • 1,443
  • Member since:
    11-24-2015
WG has measured it IRL and has confirmed that the extra 2mm applicable to Russian tanks over their Western counterparts does indeed make a world of difference when it comes to overmatching. If only the US and British tank designers had shown similar diligence.

HassenderZerhacker #8 Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:54 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 23545 battles
  • 1,958
  • [1DPG] 1DPG
  • Member since:
    09-09-2015

View PostIncandescentGerbil, on 02 April 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

WG has measured it IRL and has confirmed that the extra 2mm applicable to Russian tanks over their Western counterparts does indeed make a world of difference when it comes to overmatching. If only the US and British tank designers had shown similar diligence.

 

do you have a source for this?

K_A #9 Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:06 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 13566 battles
  • 4,656
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    04-18-2013

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 02 April 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

 

do you have a source for this?

 

Well it's obvious isn't it, the proof is all here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ



IncandescentGerbil #10 Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:13 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 35597 battles
  • 1,443
  • Member since:
    11-24-2015

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 02 April 2018 - 11:54 PM, said:

 

do you have a source for this?

Yes. His name is Boris.



DracheimFlug #11 Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:17 AM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 8925 battles
  • 3,727
  • Member since:
    11-13-2014

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 02 April 2018 - 11:05 PM, said:

 

yeah, lol, I knew this vid already ;-)

 

I'm asking about some real life examples, such as a Tiger II roof being penned by a 122mm gun at a 80° angle

 

yesterday, my SP Nr. VI was damaged through the roof by a 8.8 shell from a VK 30.01P (145 pen) that was no more than a grazing shot. I'm almost positive the angle was even flatter than 85° because I was above the VK, it was a bit weird.

when there is not enough angle for the tip of the shell to "bite" into the metal, I don't see how the shot can penetrate.

 

This may come as a shock but in battle tank crews did not get out to carefully measure shot angles or calibre of shell being shot at them. For such shots to happen at all would be exceedingly rare.

Enforcer1975 #12 Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:26 AM

    General

  • Player
  • 18425 battles
  • 9,848
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    05-04-2014

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 02 April 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

WoT has this overmatch rule - are there actually any real life examples of some tank roof being penetrated by a shell at a very flat angle ?

 

Real life "overmatching" is supposed to work completely different than what we have in game. Basically when the caliber of the shell is as great or greater than the actual thickness of the armor the armor can fail no matter what the effective thickness is but there is more to it than just that. But then there is also a thing named shattergap and inconsistency or armor quality when shells fail to penetrate where RNG plays a role. Basically overmatch is what makes russian tanks unbalanced since they made all guns similarly good / bad. 

Edited by Enforcer1975, 03 April 2018 - 12:26 AM.


UrQuan #13 Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:26 AM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 19049 battles
  • 5,792
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    08-19-2011

Not the roof, but these two are some examples:

Panther side-turret hit at a shallow angle by an IS-2 (122mm gun!). At shallow angles & with enough energy, the armor cracks rather then a clean penetrating hit/bounce. When armor cracks like this, the shrapnell from the cracked armor can cause considerable internal damage, even tho the shell itself can have bounced off.

Another panther turret cracked by shallow angle hits, but this time by Sherman tanks, using 75mm HE shells, you still can see where the shells glanced off (shallow angle), the third glancing shell caused the armor to crack: the source

 

It's stuff like above that the overmatch rule tries to implement as a game-version of this. So in the example of the roof OP provided, the RL variant of it would be the cracking of the roof armor & the subsequent shrapnel that would cause damage inside the tank, not the shell that likely glanced off the roof armor.

 


Edited by UrQuan, 03 April 2018 - 02:12 AM.


HassenderZerhacker #14 Posted 03 April 2018 - 06:44 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 23545 battles
  • 1,958
  • [1DPG] 1DPG
  • Member since:
    09-09-2015

View PostUrQuan, on 03 April 2018 - 12:26 AM, said:

Not the roof, but these two are some examples:

Panther side-turret hit at a shallow angle by an IS-2 (122mm gun!). At shallow angles & with enough energy, the armor cracks rather then a clean penetrating hit/bounce. When armor cracks like this, the shrapnell from the cracked armor can cause considerable internal damage, even tho the shell itself can have bounced off.

Another panther turret cracked by shallow angle hits, but this time by Sherman tanks, using 75mm HE shells, you still can see where the shells glanced off (shallow angle), the third glancing shell caused the armor to crack: the source

 

It's stuff like above that the overmatch rule tries to implement as a game-version of this. So in the example of the roof OP provided, the RL variant of it would be the cracking of the roof armor & the subsequent shrapnel that would cause damage inside the tank, not the shell that likely glanced off the roof armor.

 

 

very interesting, thank you !

SABAOTH #15 Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:02 AM

    Major

  • Player
  • 36414 battles
  • 2,907
  • [-133-] -133-
  • Member since:
    08-28-2011

View PostBalc0ra, on 02 April 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

 

Examples of successful roof pens? Right now I don't recall any. But... I do recall an example when the gun had less the 3 times the caliber then the roof. And even in real life, you will fail then.

 

 

 

 

Strange the car did not take damage from the HE blast, not even glass shattered.

 

If it was a tank hit by arty in wot would get 430 damage, and 20 sec stuns and lose both tracks. :trollface:



Dr_ownape #16 Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:15 AM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 40624 battles
  • 5,144
  • [IDEAL] IDEAL
  • Member since:
    03-27-2013

View PostBalc0ra, on 02 April 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

 

Well to be fair, the fuze did not actually hit the "tank" at a steep enough angle for either the direct action or graze mechanism of the fuze for it to function. It did hit and detonate on the ground impact tho.

 

OMG i couldn't let it be, sorry Bal but it hurts my autims not to get technical when it was my job for 23 years

 

 



SABAOTH #17 Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:22 AM

    Major

  • Player
  • 36414 battles
  • 2,907
  • [-133-] -133-
  • Member since:
    08-28-2011

View PostBalc0ra, on 02 April 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

 

Then again there are plenty of Abrams videos on youtube vs T-72M's etc that seems to hit the roof. But most of them are so low quality since they are from 91, or the 2 mega pixel cams from 2003 that it's hard to tell where they hit.

 

 

Those are 100% fake.

 

US capitalist guns cannot hurt glorious soviet turrets. Do not believe that dirty propaganda comrade :izmena:

 






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users